Financial Crisis in Greece

[Volk]

Greece is seen as a buffer to Turkey/Islam to Europe, this is why it will never be allowed to fail or disintegrate unless there is something to take its place...

[Bill77]

Greece is seen as a buffer to Turkey/Islam to Europe, this is why it will never be allowed to fail or disintegrate unless there is something to take its place...

In what way is Greece regarded as a Buffer? Geographicly, Greece are the ass end of Europe therefor, are not a gateway to Europe. Militarily, i would give Turkey only days to Flaten Athens. What other way could Greece be so important to stop the spread of Turkey/Islam.

[Spartan]

Greece is seen as a buffer to Turkey/Islam to Europe, this is why it will never be allowed to fail or disintegrate unless there is something to take its place...

Spot on
In my opinion anyways.

Thats why the EU wants and supports greece having a strong army/navy/af (always has). Even in the wake of this financial crisis, France and Germany wanted greece to buy more weapons I read recently.

Bill, greece is definitely a buffer in this regard, and it has often been refered to as the 'gate to europe'. Seeing as the 'common enemy' of the 'west' has been the muslim for the last 1000 years, and Greeces eastern borders form a piece of the Christian/Muslim divide, i think 'buffer' is a very appropriate descriptor.

[Bill77]

Spot on
In my opinion anyways.

Thats why the EU wants and supports greece having a strong army/navy/af (always has). Even in the wake of this financial crisis, France and Germany wanted greece to buy more weapons I read recently.

Bill, greece is definitely a buffer in this regard, and it has often been refered to as the 'gate to europe'. Seeing as the 'common enemy' of the 'west' has been the muslim for the last 1000 years, and Greeces eastern borders form a piece of the Christian/Muslim divide, i think 'buffer' is a very appropriate descriptor.

I am not sure how you link the financial crisis, selling weapons to Greece, Anti Turkey. I would look at it as France and Germany bulling Greece to bye there exports in these economic tough times now that Greece is looking to suck up to europe to get them out of this mess. A form of Blackmail. You scratch my back, i scratch yours. France and Germany are only looking at there own acc balance. It could also be a stick it up the Yanks, thats if the Americans are also selling weapons to Greece. I know the EU has an issue with USA regarding the American defence bying from Boeing (USA Company) instead from a Airbus (European Company) which was originaly planed.

If Europe fear Turkey/Islam spreading, its simple. Isolate them, Don't envolve them in any EU clubs. They don't need Greece to achieve this. Sarkozy will make sure they never enter EU. Localy, i just read a report where Merkel will ban Turks going to learn there language at Turkish schools in there country. So they can adopt any law or go against what they preach when ever they feel like and Turkey can't do anything about it. Militarily, If Europe depend on Greece, then Europe has Big problems.

[Bill77]

Greece freezes purchase of Russian tanks due to crisis - paper

Athens, March 31 (MIA) - Greece has frozen the purchase of Russian tanks BMP-3M due to the crisis, but the possibility of buying other weapons, such as anti-missile systems TOP-M1 for the purpose of increasing the country's defense capabilities , is not excluded, reads Greek daily "Vima".

Russian media reported yesterday that Russia and Greece would sign agreements on delivery of tanks and landing ships. The agreement foresees the delivery of 450 tanks worth approximately EUR 1 billion.

Defense Minister Evangelos Venizelos said the crisis has prevented the Greek government in spending EUR 1,7 billion for the deal, with the price higher than first projections of EUR 1,2 billion.


Do the Russians Fear the Turks aswell? its all to do with filling up there pockets.

[Spartan]

I am not sure how you link the financial crisis, selling weapons to Greece, Anti Turkey.

Im saying that despite the the financial crisis we are in, i.e, Germany will pay the bill..... they still want greece to buy weapons.

Why would they want greece to buy weapons and have a strong defence?
Why hasnt the selling of Greeces arms been proposed as a way to pay off the debt?

Just look east for the answer.

Thats how i linked it.

I would look at it as France and Germany bulling Greece to bye there exports in these economic tough times

Who do you think is gonna pick up the tab for all these weapons Bill?
Greece??
If spending someone elses money is 'bullying', than i guess it could be seen as such.

now that Greece is looking to suck up to europe to get them out of this mess.

Greece will get the help they need regardless if they 'suck up' or not.
Our current topic of discussions being one of the reasons.
The EU bigwigs will not let Greece fall too hard.
Greeces geographical location has been its curse, as well as its saving grace throughout history.
In Greeces current situation, in regards to the EU and Bailouts etc, it is working for the greeks.
my opinion.

France and Germany are only looking at there own acc balance. It could also be a stick it up the Yanks, thats if the Americans are also selling weapons to Greece. I know the EU has an issue with USA regarding the American defence bying from Boeing (USA Company) instead from a Airbus (European Company) which was originaly planed.

This may all be true, i dont know.
Whatever the reason(s) the EU wants to keep Greece above water, and i dont doubt that it is for selfish reasons on germany, france etc part, Greece will get the aid.

If Europe fear Turkey/Islam spreading, its simple. Isolate them, Don't envolve them in any EU clubs.

This is already the case Bill.
You can politically do whatever you want to them, but without military force, the Turks(imo) are liable to get very aggressive if things dont go their way.
What would be stopping them?
This may not be a 'major' concern to the EU, but it is definitely a concern. Turkey is very powerfull militarily.
That type of power on ones front/back doorstep, could definitely cause some 'nervousness'.

They don't need Greece to achieve this. Sarkozy will make sure they never enter EU.

Agreed, this has been the casse for a while.
However, in the interests of EU security, Greece MUST be fortified to the hilt.

Militarily, If Europe depend on Greece, then Europe has Big problems.

I dont think the Eu completely depends on Greece in this regard.
However, there is no denying greece occupies a very crucial point on the map in terms of the Eus 'best interests'.

When Winston Churchill traded Greece for Poland with Stalin at the yalta conference , he knew what he was doing.

Nothing personal, just geography.....thats all lol

Of course all the above is just my opinion.
I dont have any inside info of the inner workings of the EU

[Bill77]

Im saying that despite the the financial crisis we are in, i.e, Germany will pay the bill..... they still want greece to buy weapons. :

I know what you are trying to say. That its the most likely reason why they would suply Greece weapons. But again, i don't see Turkey a threat to the whole of Europe. They are quite moderate i think. I would be more waried about the Ethnic Albanians and Al qaeda Terrorists personaly.

Why would they want greece to buy weapons and have a strong defence?:

Purley business. But another thing. IMHO, if we talk about the mind set, Greece has not moved fwd with the rest of the world. Greece and most of its people still think like the days of Ottoman rule and the Balkan wars. There latest chant by there Army proves psycologicly where they are at. Those days have gone. Greece is part of Nato now. Pavlos Melas is long Dead. Europe can see the nationalism in Greece and i bet they would never step in because its good for buisiness. The west would be thinking, "let them remain behind we will sit back and laugh and make a killing out of them".

Why hasnt the selling of Greeces arms been proposed as a way to pay off the debt?:

I have no doubt it has been discussed behind closed doors.

Just look east for the answer.

Thats how i linked it.:

There are other Passages for Turkey to enter Europe, And the days of soldiers crossing borders by foot is long gone. Thats if you are talking about military conflict.

Who do you think is gonna pick up the tab for all these weapons Bill?
Greece??
If spending someone elses money is 'bullying', than i guess it could be seen as such. :

Again, eventualy Greece will pay for it. You don't get something for nothing mate. And also, Germany would be the last country to do Greece any favours now.



Just like yourself Spartan. This is just my opinion. Let me end with saying, that Greece is part of Nato. One in and its all in. So Turkey know the ramifications if they start anything with Greece (evan though they them selves are Nato members) No matter how much you arm Greece, They would be a speed bump and nothing else if Turkey wants to take on Europe. What the West need to do is, change Greece's mind set. Stop hating all its neighbours. If the Germans can bring down the Berlin wall, if the Iron curtain can fall, why can't Greece get over The nationalism and us against the world mentality and the world owes us everything mentality.

[Prolet]

So if thats the case then why isnt Bulgaria fully armed? They border Turkey too

[Bill77]

So if thats the case then why isnt Bulgaria fully armed? They border Turkey too

A good question Prolet. surley they would load Bulgaria with arms if Turkey was such an issue. You also have Romania which would be another point of entry to Europe, that shares the Black Sea with Turkey.

But its only Greece that thinks they need such amount of Weapons. Where there is a demand, there will always be supply. And the west will be more than happy to Supply. They are more delighted at the fact that Greeks feel insacure and have hatred towards all its neighbours. Its good for business.

Just like a dealer selling crack to a junkie. They don't care what amount is needed or if needed at all. As long as the deal is done.

When Greece was first created as a nation by the west. Situation was Diferant. We were talking about a mighty Ottamon Empire then. Later on in WW2 the west had the threat of Communism spreading. Greece was important Geographicly. If Russia was to take Greece, the Mediterranean sea would have been controlled by them. But again, those threats to Europe are long gone now. Does Greece realise this? Do they still think that the world depend on them? Do they think that the world give a shit about there relationship with Turkey? Obviously not if you look at the situation with Cyprus.


Well this is my take on it antway. Just some food for thought.

[Spartan]

But again, i don't see Turkey a threat to the whole of Europe.

Tell that to the Germans and French!
They sure believe it.
Ask even one of our recent forefathers!
They'll (if the dead could talk) would tell you what those people are capable of.

They are quite moderate i think. I would be more waried about the Ethnic Albanians and Al qaeda Terrorists personaly.

The Turks are moderate!?
Bill, how did you come to this conclusion?
The turks are far from moderate, and they are a major reason why everyone in the region is nervous!!
They breach Greek and EU airspace, on average, 10 times a day, lol

Purley business. But another thing. IMHO, if we talk about the mind set, Greece has not moved fwd with the rest of the world. Greece and most of its people still think like the days of Ottoman rule and the Balkan wars. There latest chant by there Army proves psycologicly where they are at.

How did you come to this conclusion all the way from Australlia Bill?
Have you been to greece?
What you describe as the 'Army'`, is really just a special forces unit.
To think that the chants of these few, apply to the whole populations mentality is flawed.

The west would be thinking, "let them remain behind we will sit back and laugh and make a killing out of them".

Bill, if your neighbour had sniper guns pointed at your house from his window, what would you do?
No doubt the powers were making money of selling arms, but they benefit security wise also.

I have no doubt it has been discussed behind closed doors.

Why behind close doors? Whats the big secret?
I bet Greece could put a HUGE dent in its debt by selling off its defences yet it has not been brought up??
Strange
The truth is, this would NEVER be an option.
The EU needs a strong army in the Aegean.

There are other Passages for Turkey to enter Europe, And the days of soldiers crossing borders by foot is long gone. Thats if you are talking about military conflict.

The only other way in is a very small section of border with Bulgaria, that the Greeks would defend anyways.
Nobodies talking about soldiers crossing borders.
In the case of a military conflict between Turkey and Europe, greece would be the first line of defence, and i woulsd assume the initial strikes would be via the skies and the sea.

Again, eventualy Greece will pay for it. You don't get something for nothing mate.

Really?
When Greece gets bailed out, thats exactly what will be proved.
Something for nothing.

And also, Germany would be the last country to do Greece any favours now.

Bill, Germanys going to take the hit for the majority of the bailout!!

No matter how much you arm Greece, They would be a speed bump and nothing else if Turkey wants to take on Europe.

I disagree.
If Greece is provided with more arms, and better ones than the Turks, I think they would be much more than a 'roadblock'.

What the West need to do is, change Greece's mind set. Stop hating all its neighbours.

We are talking about the Balkans.
Dont kid yourself Bill.
In the Balkans, everyone hates their neighbours.
You guys often describe Macedonia being surrounded by four wolves.
Is this the mindset you mean?
Luckily we only have one wolf as of now.... but its a big one.

why can't Greece get over The nationalism and us against the world mentality and the world owes us everything mentality.

I dont think greece has an us against the world mentality.
"Us against the Turk", for sure.
I dont believe that Greece has the mentality that the world 'owes' us.
The powers have done alot for Greece over the years. Some negative, but for the most part positive.

Geography......

[Spartan]

A good question Prolet. surley they would load Bulgaria with arms if Turkey was such an issue. You also have Romania which would be another point of entry to Europe, that shares the Black Sea with Turkey.

Greece would defend all these access points to the best of their ability.
Obviously not alone, but they would help.

But its only Greece that thinks they need such amount of Weapons.

Not only Greece!
The rest of the EU is very happy about greece having a big arsenal!
In fact, they ensure that they do.

But again, those threats to Europe are long gone now. Does Greece realise this?

The EU would disagree with you Bill.
If they agreed, ghreece wouldnt be armed to the tits.

Do they still think that the world depend on them?

At what point did Greece believe the 'world depended on them'? and why?
This is starting to sound a tad silly bro, im sorry to say.

Do they think that the world give a shit about there relationship with Turkey?

Do you honestly believe that the powerful EU countries are not concerned with Greek -turk relations? Really Bill??
They are directly affected by this relationship! Of course they care!
Not the 'whole world' obviously, but it is a concern for those it concerns.

[Coolski]

Spot on
In my opinion anyways.

Thats why the EU wants and supports greece having a strong army/navy/af (always has). Even in the wake of this financial crisis, France and Germany wanted greece to buy more weapons I read recently.

Bill, greece is definitely a buffer in this regard, and it has often been refered to as the 'gate to europe'. Seeing as the 'common enemy' of the 'west' has been the muslim for the last 1000 years, and Greeces eastern borders form a piece of the Christian/Muslim divide, i think 'buffer' is a very appropriate descriptor.

Perhaps if europe saw muslims as the enemy the west roman empire would have helped prevent the Ottoman invasion of the east roman empire, which began this spread in the first place.

[Bill77]

Tell that to the Germans and French!
They sure believe it.
Ask even one of our recent forefathers!
They'll (if the dead could talk) would tell you what those people are capable of.

I also know what my forefather would say about the Greeks. But by you bringing up what our forefathers went through,Just proves one of my points. Times have changed. We can't forget what hapened, but we must Move on. I wary about what is hapening today to our people.

The Turks are moderate!?
Bill, how did you come to this conclusion?
The turks are far from moderate, and they are a major reason why everyone in the region is nervous!!
They breach Greek and EU airspace, on average, 10 times a day, lol.

I thought i implied as Compared to the Ethnic Albanians and Al qaeda Terrorists They are. They are more westernised than some European countries, again just my opinion. Acording to (shit i am going to hate quoting this) Wiki "Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion; the Turkish Constitution provides for freedom of religion and conscience". If this is true, they would be less Barbarian than Greece, don't you think?

Greece can stop Macedonian passenger planes flying over there airspace because its Greek airspace when it suits them. But oh no, when there is something to hot to handle alone, its now Greek and EU airspace. lol And don't forget, Greece equaly violates Turkish and Macedonian airspace. Its all games tit for tat.

How did you come to this conclusion all the way from Australlia Bill?
Have you been to greece?
What you describe as the 'Army'`, is really just a special forces unit.
To think that the chants of these few, apply to the whole populations mentality is flawed.

Yes i have been to Greece and i live in a state that has the 3rd largest Greek comunity just after Athens and Thasoluniki. I am well aware how they think. Let me remind you again of your post regarding our forefathers thoughts about the turks 100 years ago. Much water has passed under the bridge since.

Army or Special Forces. Both would invade if there was a war. This time it was the special forces. But it is not the first and won't be the last time.

Why behind close doors? Whats the big secret?
I bet Greece could put a HUGE dent in its debt by selling off its defences yet it has not been brought up??
Strange.

Why? are you serious? How would it look to the rest of the world if they were to Hear Greece is about to colaps and yet they are made to purchase more arms. Well they are cutting back on spending with the Russians, i don't know, is that a deal made behind close doors? cut off the rest and bye from us mabe And i did sugest eventualy they would have to pay for them some how.

Bill, Germanys going to take the hit for the majority of the bailout!!

Possibly, but it will not be for the love of Greece or Fear of Turkey. Its to save the European Unions credability.




I will end with this and thats it. Boy you can chat and i can't shut up we will go on forever lol

Regarding your comment "At what point did Greece believe the 'world depended on them'? and why?" Well everything is Greek from fetta cheese to Democracy. If it was not for Greeks, we all would still be Monkeys swinging from trees. lol But seriously, with all due respect Spartan, when i hear comments such as "Greece is strategicly important for Europe" with out any real evidance that the Turks are a threat to the rest of Europe,(i know countries such as Germany and France are concerned with islamic extremists just like the rest of the world) But i can't help but believe that Greeks have a self glorifying imagination if they seriously believe Europe depends on them and Greece is capable of keeping the Turks at bay. If the Turks were so frowned upon and not wanted, then it was a bad move inviting them into Nato.

Peace.... and you can now have the last say.

[Spartan]

@Coolski
"If we knew then what we know now...." comes to mind.

[Bill77]

"If we knew then what we know now...." comes to mind.

Yeh, these bloody Germans. What the Natzis did is unforgivable. They are a threat to Europe.

Sory mate, now you can have the last say and i mean it this time, like i meant it when i said i can't shut up.