United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    Borce, welcome and thank you for a refreshing take on the matter.
    I agree with you on many levels. I was very disappointed with the level of scrutiny by the attendees and also the level of real dialogue. As I mentioned during my question time, many of the UMD initiatives were terrific and Meto presented them very well. But the fundamental sweeping under the carpet of ideology remains a dark cloud over this organisation.

    Again, thanks for your post.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • aleksandrov
      Member
      • Feb 2010
      • 558

      Originally posted by julie View Post
      Alexandrov , Have you had an opportunity to view Risto the Great tape posted on the forum? Well articulated question with a less than satisfactory response.
      I was also present
      Yes I have. I broadly agree with Risto's view. I am not impressed by Meto's response in that clip, but it's not exactly worth going to war over - at least not before we have declared war on a Macedonian Government that seems quite popular at the moment, even among the diaspora, despite its unwavering and active commitment to the Interim Accord, the Ohrid Framework Agreement, and the inclusion of a coalition party led by Albanian racist terrorists, who keep on gaining unjust rewards for their aggression and constant threats. For now, I prefer to try and bridge the policy gap with UMD, rather than take an adversarial approach that is likely to increase it. And if we must ultimately go to war, let's make it a war of principles and ideas, rather than a war of personalities or allegiances to personalities, organizations, states or other institutions.
      All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

      https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        the only allegiance I have , my brother, is to my Macedonian identity and culture.
        My choice is not to participate in any negotation for my beautiful Macedonian name.
        The Macedonian flag our ancestors have died under has been compromised in negotations.
        Negotations to enter into the bullshit EU ans NATO.
        Isnt it just the biggest joke that Macedonia has lost soldiers in Iraq, and Afghanistan , yet is unrecognised.
        The Republic of Macedonia is all well and good as is Democratic Macedonia bla bla bla.
        (dad is from there - my MOTHER is from Aegean Macedonia. with a really big sad family history. What about the people in Pirinska Makedonia and Albanian Macedonia.
        The UMD supports the wishes of the ROM government.
        I thought the united macedonian DIASPORA reflected the views of the DIASPORA - something wrong here, I am diaspora, and I know my view is shared by many.
        Jas sum Makedonka. period.
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

        Comment

        • aleksandrov
          Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 558

          Julie,

          We obviously have shared sentiments about the politics of successive Macedonian Governments. We also seem to share certain concerns about UMD policy. However, I think that the almost obsessive preoccupation on this and another forum with criticism of UMD is getting a little unhealthy for the cause.

          UMD is not a government that coercively collects taxes from the Macedonian people and should therefore account to them. It is just a non-government organization that pursues objectives determined by its Board, which in turn is voluntarily supported by its members. If somebody doesn't like its policies and actions, the constructive way to channel that dissatisfaction is to constructively interact with its leadership in the hope of influencing its future direction and/or to just focus on supporting more favorable organizations. Sure, if we feel that the UMD or anybody else has misrepresented the Macedonians in the diaspora in some significant way, we can point that out in public, but let's not get too preoccupied with somebody having misrepresented our views. Isn't it better if we focus instead on improving the way we convey and act on our views ourselves?
          All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

          https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

          Comment

          • Jankovska
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1774

            Originally posted by julie View Post
            the only allegiance I have , my brother, is to my Macedonian identity and culture.
            My choice is not to participate in any negotation for my beautiful Macedonian name.
            The Macedonian flag our ancestors have died under has been compromised in negotations.
            Negotations to enter into the bullshit EU ans NATO.
            Isnt it just the biggest joke that Macedonia has lost soldiers in Iraq, and Afghanistan , yet is unrecognised.
            The Republic of Macedonia is all well and good as is Democratic Macedonia bla bla bla.
            (dad is from there - my MOTHER is from Aegean Macedonia. with a really big sad family history. What about the people in Pirinska Makedonia and Albanian Macedonia.
            The UMD supports the wishes of the ROM government.
            I thought the united macedonian DIASPORA reflected the views of the DIASPORA - something wrong here, I am diaspora, and I know my view is shared by many.
            Jas sum Makedonka. period.

            Amen!!!!!!

            Comment

            • Buktop
              Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 934

              Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
              Julie,

              We obviously have shared sentiments about the politics of successive Macedonian Governments. We also seem to share certain concerns about UMD policy. However, I think that the almost obsessive preoccupation on this and another forum with criticism of UMD is getting a little unhealthy for the cause.

              UMD is not a government that coercively collects taxes from the Macedonian people and should therefore account to them. It is just a non-government organization that pursues objectives determined by its Board, which in turn is voluntarily supported by its members. If somebody doesn't like its policies and actions, the constructive way to channel that dissatisfaction is to constructively interact with its leadership in the hope of influencing its future direction and/or to just focus on supporting more favorable organizations. Sure, if we feel that the UMD or anybody else has misrepresented the Macedonians in the diaspora in some significant way, we can point that out in public, but let's not get too preoccupied with somebody having misrepresented our views. Isn't it better if we focus instead on improving the way we convey and act on our views ourselves?
              One of the most intelligent responses I have read in a long time, thank you Aleksandrov.
              "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

              Never once say you walk upon your final way
              though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
              Our long awaited hour will draw near
              and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

              Comment

              • The LION will ROAR
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3231

                Guy's I apologies that I didn't attend to the UMD meeting in Sydney last Friday as I said I would which I wanted to give some feed back to MTO..
                Unfortunately something important came up and couldn't attend..#@$%@^
                I wished I did..as I see not many from Sydney contributed in Questioning certain issues that we have with UMD...
                Yes..it is true and a FACT..that young Macedonians who are proud but do not contribute or very little in the Macedonian community..unless it's sport...
                When ever there is a festival or an event very few Young Macedonians attend, you see mostly older folks..
                What will happen with the next Generation..? I Don't like the outcome…...
                The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                Comment

                • Dejan
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 589

                  I attended the Sydney meeting also. While I fit in the under 40’s catergory( under 30’s actually) I was also disappointed by the lack of youth that turned up at the event. How many of the ‘stara vojska’ can put their hand on their heart and say they aksed/told their children to attend the meeting, even just to see what it was about??? Do these people talk about Macedonia to their kids at home?? My parents didn’t attend the event, nor did they tell me to attend, but I have an interest in the motherland and made an effort to hear Meto out, and see what the UMD are offering. While i’m disappointed at the younger generation for not making an effort, I’m also disappointed at the older generation for not involving their offspring.

                  I was also disappointed at the questions asked to Meto. It seems the people that asked the questions thought that Meto was the President of Macedonia or something. Not many questions were asked about the UMD as an organisation.

                  Meto came across as an intelligent person, and it was good to see what the UMD had achieved, what it was working on, and who it was working with. I too have been a bit of a sceptic about the UMD, and if anything I came out of this meeting with a bit more respect towards the organisation. It’s a good start for the organisation, but there is more work to be done if it wants to be an important representative of our diaspora.
                  You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                  A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                  Comment

                  • Prolet
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 5241

                    Well Said Dejan

                    I think its great that the people actually went, i knew deep down that with communication and a joint cause a dialogue would be reached. Im shocked with Aleksandrov to be honest i would have never expected him to post that, it seems like he had a very good discussion with Metodija because before that im not so sure we would have seen that above post.

                    Im surprised in a good way by the way, well done guys and hopefully the UMD and Metodija can take into account what it is exactly our whole diaspora should stand for and protect.
                    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                      What does Australia have to lose by getting the Greek side offside?

                      Firstly, Greece is broke and now holds no international diplomatic leverage.

                      Secondly, trade between Australia and Greece is quite low (less than $250m with Australian exports to Greece only around $70m).

                      Thirdly, Greece is a member of the European Union and as such, the EU understanding of 'solidarity' requires Greece to support EU nations (Luxembourg) over anyone else in terms of things like UN Security Council seats and so on.


                      From every indicator I can find, Greece too, is not that important to Australia.
                      It is purely the Greek lobby in Australia. Nothing else really to it.

                      If Australian government politicians can be convinced that Greek representations are not to be trusted, or can be made to believe that the predatory tactics and threats of Greek lobby groups are all bark and no bite - we have a chance.

                      Isn't it interesting how the popularity of the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd has plummeted since he made the decision not to recognize the Republic of Macedonia? (Has anyone else noticed this?)

                      I am not saying that there is a connection, but if he can be made to believe there could be connection (however tenuous) he might rethink the Greek vote. What if Kevin Rudd has under-estimated the awareness and the depth of feeling among Australians with regard to recognition of the Macedonian Republic? After all Macedonians have been a part of Australian society for many generations - we live here, we have friends here...etc.
                      Last edited by Pelister; 02-15-2010, 09:32 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Pelister
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2742

                        Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                        Thanks for sharing that with us borce...

                        I just wonder how far beyond the internet community does an awareness of UMD actually extend amongst the wider Macedonian population...most people agree that Meto is a polished performer on the stage and certainly not everything about them can be considered bad or evil but the fact that they have let themselves down with some very public "mistakes" is disturbing and perhaps has diminished their 'good' work overall...?
                        True.

                        There are some qualities about Meto and UMD that I can't help admire, but it is everything else that is lacking, specifically their very soft position (in some cases defence of) various anti-Macedonian processes.

                        I spoke to Meto and made my case to him why we should stop negotiating. He told me that we were not a country before 1944. So I made the case to him why we were, I talked about Macedonian society as the local level, our social structures and laws, our traditions ...etc.

                        Alexandrov wrote:
                        We obviously have shared sentiments about the politics of successive Macedonian Governments. We also seem to share certain concerns about UMD policy. However, I think that the almost obsessive preoccupation on this and another forum with criticism of UMD is getting a little unhealthy for the cause.

                        UMD is not a government that coercively collects taxes from the Macedonian people and should therefore account to them. It is just a non-government organization that pursues objectives determined by its Board, which in turn is voluntarily supported by its members. If somebody doesn't like its policies and actions, the constructive way to channel that dissatisfaction is to constructively interact with its leadership in the hope of influencing its future direction and/or to just focus on supporting more favorable organizations. Sure, if we feel that the UMD or anybody else has misrepresented the Macedonians in the diaspora in some significant way, we can point that out in public, but let's not get too preoccupied with somebody having misrepresented our views. Isn't it better if we focus instead on improving the way we convey and act on our views ourselves?
                        In some ways Alexandrov is right.

                        We ought to find better ways of expresing our dissatisfaction, but how are we to do that? UMD made an effort to censor all criticism of its organization, i.e., legitimate criticism I might at - at Maknews. I don't think Alexandrov has any idea who UMD are representing in meetings with our leaders all over the world. Or has he considered that UMD are in fact in meetings with our leaders, our politicians and big wigs? I would certainly like to know what they are saying. Well, what are they saying? We can only guess, or take their word for it. What we know from public statements made by UMD is that they defend the talks, the Interim Accord, among other anti-Macedonian processes and institutions. Two or three threads criticising UMD is far from being 'obsessive' - which was precisely the case made by UMD at Maknews before Maknews began banning.

                        If our criticisms are legitimate (I believe they are, after all the evidence comes from UMD statements), voicing it and expressing it can only be a benefit.

                        My knowledge of the Interim Accord was poor, but I got to know a little more about it and about UMD's position on these forums, which allowed me to make a case for change face-to-face with Meto a few weeks ago.
                        Last edited by Pelister; 02-15-2010, 10:00 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Prolet
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 5241

                          There are some qualities about Meto and UMD that I can't help admire, but it is everything else that is lacking, specifically their very soft position (in some cases defence of) various anti-Macedonian processes.
                          This is exactly why we need people like Boris Zmejkovski and Mane Jakovlevski to be mentors and not allow our people to be pushed around. We do need to toughen up our stance thats for sure
                          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                          Comment

                          • Phoenix
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 4671

                            Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                            This is exactly why we need people like Boris Zmejkovski and Mane Jakovlevski to be mentors and not allow our people to be pushed around. We do need to toughen up our stance thats for sure
                            At the end of the day the reality is that UMD have to some degree failed the diaspora and this can't be compensated by Meto's stagecraft or "potential" as an activist...lets not lose sight of the fact that serious "mistakes" have been made that shouldn't be readily swept under the carpet...

                            Comment

                            • Bill77
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2009
                              • 4545

                              I am asuming the Melbourne meeting is still on tomorrow, Any one from MTO attending?
                              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                              Comment

                              • aleksandrov
                                Member
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 558

                                Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                                ...

                                We ought to find better ways of expresing our dissatisfaction, but how are we to do that? UMD made an effort to censor all criticism of its organization, i.e., legitimate criticism I might at - at Maknews. ...
                                Maknews certainly did no favors to UMD with the ednoumie-style censorship. All Maknews achieved by that was to increase suspicion about who UMD's leadership is really accountable to - if not the support base it gained through internet marketing and networking, and who is really determining UMD's policies, given that its office-bearers appeared incapable or unwilling to substantiate and defend them. The impression that UMD's office-bearers condoned or maybe even colluded in Maknews' censorship has made things even worse.

                                I don't think Alexandrov has any idea who UMD are representing in meetings with our leaders all over the world.
                                Who - apart from the people taking part in those meetings - does? And how much of an idea do any of us have about private representations that are made by other Macedonian organizations - apart from any that we might be leading ourselves?

                                Two or three threads criticising UMD is far from being 'obsessive' - which was precisely the case made by UMD at Maknews before Maknews began banning.
                                Things have gone well beyond two or three threads criticizing the UMD. Criticisms of the UMD have taken up so much discussion time and space that an outsider might be excused for thinking the organization is a de facto Government of Macedonia. Threads with very specific policy discussion topics are being hijacked by repetitive criticisms of UMD that are only remotely related to the topic, if at all. I wonder how many of the fiery UMD critics realize that they might actually be doing the leadership of that organization a service, by making it appear as a victim of armchair warriors and the Tall Poppy Syndrome?

                                The biggest problem I see with the direction that UMD criticisms and responses to such criticisms are taking is the increasingly personal and offensive tone. In my experience, when policy disagreements among community activists and commentators are allowed to turn into personal animosity, the personal animosity tends to take precedence over and often outlive the policy disagreements. The obvious problem there is that when the adversaries eventually bridge the policy gap, they are unable to start working together in shared policy directions because of the ongoing personal animosity.
                                All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                                https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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