Saints Cyril and Methodius

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #46
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    гази (gazi) in Macedonian means:

    to tread upon
    slog
    wade
    step on
    stomp
    trudge

    A газар (gazar) would suggest someone who does any of the above.

    One more common word then. I also checked all other 10+ Turkic language. It`s a common word, it`s "gazi, gezi" in all. Then i checked in google translate;

    "gázol" in Hungarian
    "gazya" in Bulgarian
    "gaz, gaženje" in Croatian and Serbian.

    but i couldn't find it in Russian, Albanian or Greek.



    The word "Gezi" is very old word(maybe ancient) and in Turkish, we got lots of other words reproduced/derived from it by adding suffixes. like;

    Gez-argi; Contagious diseases like flu. Because the viruses wanders from one to another.
    Gez-ek; The one who travels a lot or a place where people promenades.
    Gez-egen; Planet. Because planets does tour around their orbit.
    ...
    Last edited by Onur; 09-08-2010, 09:37 AM.

    Comment

    • Makedonetz
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 1080

      #47
      Onur it shows Macedonia layed the stones down in teaching our Yasik (language, whats the word in turkish onur) and culture. And it shows today where Cyril & Methodis walked and spread our alphabet. Im interested did they encounter with the greeks? Hell greece says were one of them but i bet their not even mentioned in Hell-ass short history.
      Makedoncite se borat
      za svoite pravdini!

      "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
      - Goce Delchev

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #48
        Onur, good topic and thanks for raising it, I would like to delve further into this.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • lavce pelagonski
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2009
          • 1993

          #49
          Alal da tije Onur great job
          Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

          „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

          Comment

          • Onur
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 2389

            #50
            Thanks guys. Since you liked it, so i better continue ;


            In the same book at my first message above, it`s noted as this;



            Author takes this information from "Vita Constantini" again. It says that the Cyril has gone to Crimea to learn Khazar language b4 going to the Khan`s court. In that era, some pagan Slavic people and Tatars was living there(the composition of people didn't change much today either, since Tatars and Ukranians living in there atm). Khazar language was ofc some kind of Turkic, similar to today`s Tatar and/or Chuvash dialect of Volga Bulgars. Already, members of the Karaite sect of Judaism who claims to be the descendants of Khazars, speaks Tatar dialect of Turkic today. Also if Cyril learned Turkic in Crimea, he might have learned the Turkic runic script too since it was the official alphabet of the Khazars.

            I read from some other book that when Cyril gone to Crimea, he discovered some written texts belongs to the slavic people who lives in there and then he also learned how to read it.

            Then i also found this;
            The 9th century Bulgarian writer, Chernorizets Hrabar in his О писменех (An Account of Letters) briefly mentioned that, before the introduction of Christianity, Slavs used a system he had dubbed "strokes and incisions" or "tallies and sketches" in some translations (Old Church Slavonic: чръты и рѣзы);

            "Being still pagans, the Slavs did not have their own letters, but read and communicated by means of tallies and sketches. After their baptism they were forced to use Roman and Greek letters in the transcription of their Slavic words but these were not suitable... At last, God, in his love for mankind, sent them St. Constantine the Philosopher, called Cyril, a learned and upright man, who composed for them thirty-eight letters, some(24 of them) similar to the Greek, but some(14 of them) different, suitable to express Slavic sounds."

            It is thought that this may have been a form of runic script but no authentic examples are known to have survived.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Account_of_Letters

            Even tough it`s stated as there is no sample of this text survived `till now, i believe that if pre-christianity Slavs used runic script to write their own language, this was probably the Turkic runes. Thats pretty normal because all these slavic tribes was the allies and members of the Huns at 5th AD and then they were also subjects of Khazar Empire laters. Another one of these members of the Huns, the Magyars was also using Turkic runes `till their conversion to christianity. We are %100 sure about the Magyars because there are lots of documents with Hungarian runic script today but it looks like there is none survived from Slavic people. This is understandable tough cuz in medieval christianity, runic script was something related with paganism, usually considered as demonic and associated with the dark magic, so both Bulgars, eastern Slavs and Magyars probably required to destroy everything related with their former lives after they converted into christianity.
            Last edited by Onur; 09-13-2010, 06:05 PM.

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              #51
              I saw a thread here related with this. It`s also an interesting read;

              Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
              After stumbling upon the Proto-Bulgarian script I noticed how similar some letters are to the Glagolitic alphabet:



              So I did a comparison (I also compared it to Hebrew):



              The only two letters I'm definitely sure Constantine created (or his students or brother) were the "I" and "S". These two when used as an abbreviation for Jesus/Исѹсъ, in Cyrillic they form ·ИС·, but in Glagolitic:



              which is one of the symbols of Christianity and Jesus, the Fish or Ichthys, Classical Greek ΙΧΘΥC, abbreviation of "Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ" ("Iēsous Khristos Theou Huios, Sōtēr") = "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

              I'll do more research and compare Glagolitic to other scripts used around the time of Constantine since he being a polyglot and versed in many languages most probably had contact with. The Proto-Bulgar script might be the script that Constantine saw in Chersones and which are referred in his biography as the "Russian" letters.


              The guy above here thinks that the Glagolitic alphabet might be related with Turkic runes too(as he calls as proto-Bulgarian script here).


              As 9th century Bulgar scholar says;
              "...At last, God, in his love for mankind, sent them St. Constantine the Philosopher, called Cyril, a learned and upright man, who composed for them thirty-eight letters, some(24 of them) similar to the Greek, but some(14 of them) different, suitable to express Slavic sounds..."

              24 of the letters are similar to Greek but 14 of them was different. These different letters might be related with Turkic runes. If eastern Slavs was already using this script at their pagan era and if Cyril learned Turkic language in Crimea at 860 AD, then this theory should be highly possible. Ofc this is pretty much impossible to prove atm unless some medieval texts to be discovered in the future.
              Last edited by Onur; 09-13-2010, 06:16 PM.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #52
                See my response to that guy, Onur, as I don't believe for a second that this is the case, and there has never been any such indication until relatively recently.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • The LION will ROAR
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3231

                  #53
                  An American magazine called Art and Archaeology published in 1921, talks about art in CzechoSlovakia. The author mentions the christening of the Czech Duke Borivoj in the year 874 by the MACEDONIAN apostles Cyril and Methodius.

                  The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                  Comment

                  • makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 3242

                    #54
                    TLWR
                    Great find!
                    On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #55
                      I posted some info in this thread about the script of slavs when they were pagans;





                      The 9th century Bulgarian writer, Chernorizets Hrabar in his О писменех (An Account of Letters) briefly mentioned that, before the introduction of Christianity, Slavs used a system he had dubbed "strokes and incisions" or "tallies and sketches" in some translations (Old Church Slavonic: чръты и рѣзы);

                      "Being still pagans, the Slavs did not have their own letters, but read and communicated by means of tallies and sketches. After their baptism they were forced to use Roman and Greek letters in the transcription of their Slavic words but these were not suitable... At last, God, in his love for mankind, sent them St. Constantine the Philosopher, called Cyril, a learned and upright man, who composed for them thirty-eight letters, some(24 of them) similar to the Greek, but some(14 of them) different, suitable to express Slavic sounds."

                      It is thought that this may have been a form of runic script but no authentic examples are known to have survived.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #56
                        The Byzantine Commonwealth, Dimitri Obolensky, page 149
                        It is significant that, whereas after 893 Cyrillic was adopted by the government and court schools of Preslav, Glagolitic was mainly cultivated – at least until the end of the twelfth century – in the geographically remote and culturally more conservative Macedonian school founded by Clement.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Constellation
                          Member
                          • Jul 2014
                          • 217

                          #57
                          Saints Cyril and Methodius

                          Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians. Yet the world sees them as Greeks. I hate to quote Wikipedia (which is ungodly to do so, but I must to prove a point).

                          Saints Cyril and Methodius (Greek: Κύριλλος καὶ Μεθόδιος, Old Church Slavonic: Кѷриллъ и Меѳодїи[more]) were 9th-century Byzantine Greek brothers born in Thessalonica, Macedonia, in the Byzantine Empire. They were the principal Christian missionaries among the Slavic peoples of the Great Moravia and Pannonia, introducing Orthodox Christianity and writing to the hitherto illiterate, pagan Slav migrants into parts of Macedonia and elsewhere in the Balkans.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Through their work they influenced the cultural development of all Slavs, for which they received the title "Apostles to the Slavs". They are credited with devising the Glagolitic alphabet, the first alphabet used to transcribe Old Church Slavonic.[11]
                          So according to this, the Greek brothers were Christian missionaries among the pagan Slavic migrants into parts of Macedonia and elsewhere.

                          So this raises a few questions:

                          1. If Saint Paul brought Christianity to ancient Macedonia, then why would the two brothers feel the need to Christianize the pagan Slavic peoples in Macedonia and elsewhere? The answer would have to be that most of the ancients were wiped out by the invading Slavs, and so the Greeks, rather than Hellenizing them, decided to use the Slavs' own tongue, which somehow they knew, to create an alphabet to Christianize them.

                          2. What language did the Macedonians in St. Paul's day speak? Intellectually, the lingua franca was Greek, but what was the vernacular tongue? This is a contenious subject.

                          3. If Slavic is native to the Balkans, why would Greeks, and not Slavic speakers, devise a church Slavonic alphabet?

                          The position of Wikipedia is that the present day Macedonians are descendants of the pagan Slavs and that we owe our Christianity to the Greeks and indeed are intellectual lives to them as well.

                          It is not universally accepted that the brothers were Greek, however. In fact, the Bulgarians regard them as Bulgarian, and the Macedonians regarded them as Macedonian.

                          Cyril and Methodius' father was an important and influential city official in Thessalonica and held a high rank in the Byzantine society since the city was the second most important in the Empire. Not only that he was an important Macedonian but not too long afterwards the whole Byzantine Empire was ruled by the Macedonians from the Macedonian dynasty, period known as the Golden Age of the Empire. Thus there is only one possible and logical explanation for the ethnicity of the Salonica brothers - they were ethnic Macedonians, descendents of the Macedonians of Philip II, Alexander the Great, and Cassander. Under the direct order of the Byzantine Emperor Cyril and Methodius educated the Slavs which settled among the Macedonians in Macedonia in order to culturally integrate them into the empire, and for that act they became known as the "Slav apostles".
                          So if the brothers were Macedonian, it raises a different question:

                          If there were Slavic migrants or invaders in the southern Balkans, including Macedonia, what language did the ethnic Macedonians speak in the 9th century? The same as Philip and Alexander? If so, how did they stop speaking this language in the 9th century and start speaking Slavic?
                          Last edited by Constellation; 07-29-2014, 08:00 PM.

                          Comment

                          • DraganOfStip
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2011
                            • 1253

                            #58
                            Where did you extract the second quote from?
                            Wikipedia,like the first?

                            If there were Slavic migrants or invaders in the southern Balkans, including Macedonia...
                            Are you again questioning the Slavic migration theory?

                            P.S.:There is another thread about the Holy brothers in this forum,please don't use your "Slavic pattern" and create a few more on the same subject.
                            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                            ― George Orwell

                            Comment

                            • Constellation
                              Member
                              • Jul 2014
                              • 217

                              #59
                              Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                              Where did you extract the second quote from?
                              Wikipedia,like the first?
                              No. http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ro...Methodius.html


                              Are you again questioning the Slavic migration theory?
                              I have legitimate questions about this theory. There are people on this forum who deny it. There are people on this forum who affirm it. Some Macedonians on this forum believe the ancient Macedonians spoke a similar language to what modern Macedonians speak. Some Macedonians believe Slavic was adopted when Slavs migrated/invaded the Balkans.

                              These are all theories. I am not sure which is true, but I am trying to figure this out. What I do know for sure (scientifically) is that today's Macedonians could not have descended from ethnic Slavic migrants in the 6th century. It is impossible.

                              P.S.:There is another thread about the Holy brothers in this forum,please don't use your "Slavic pattern" and create a few more on the same subject.
                              Perhaps you can forward the link?

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #60
                                Originally posted by DraganOfStip
                                There is another thread about the Holy brothers in this forum....
                                I have merged them together.
                                Originally posted by Constellation
                                Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians. Yet the world sees them as Greeks.
                                Do you know of any medieval sources which refer to them as 'Greeks'?
                                If Saint Paul brought Christianity to ancient Macedonia, then why would the two brothers feel the need to Christianize the pagan Slavic peoples in Macedonia and elsewhere? The answer would have to be that most of the ancients were wiped out by the invading Slavs.......
                                If that is what the answer would have to be as you've indicated above, how does that fit into to your theory that today's Macedonians are genetically different to those 'pagan Slavs'?
                                What language did the Macedonians in St. Paul's day speak? Intellectually, the lingua franca was Greek, but what was the vernacular tongue? This is a contenious subject.
                                What language do you think they spoke as a vernacular?
                                If there were Slavic migrants or invaders in the southern Balkans, including Macedonia, what language did the ethnic Macedonians speak in the 9th century? The same as Philip and Alexander? If so, how did they stop speaking this language in the 9th century and start speaking Slavic?
                                Interesting question. What is your theory on the above?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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