Political Scandals and Judiciary Corruption in Macedonia

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #76
    It just gets worse and worse.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #77
      Do you have a link on the recording from the 2011 incident?

      Originally posted by ramo View Post
      There were clashes today in front of the government after the recordings with the boy killed by the special forces in 2011 was released which shows how they were trying to hide the killer and the whole case and deny responsibility.



      Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


      One police officer moved away from the barricade at the beginning letting the people pass and he left the spot with his equipment. He was the bravest man today.


      Gruevski is over. It is matter of days.

      Comment

      • sydney
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 390

        #78
        Hey Gocka, try this:

        Comment

        • EgejskaMakedonia
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2010
          • 1665

          #79
          I think DPMNE will lose a lot of support from this, even from their own. In recent times, I can't think of another protest/event that has gathered more momentum and numbers than that of the fight against police brutality in Macedonia (from Macedonians, Albanian protests are another matter). These recordings (assuming they are authentic) are absolutely damning and touch on a very sensitive issue for a lot of citizens in Macedonia. You don't even have to be pro-SDSM to realise how wrong and corrupt this all is. Poor kid, they tried to deny him and his family the justice they deserved.

          The sooner the corrupt element of the government is cleared out, the better. But I do have a genuine fear as to who will fill the void should Gruevski and co. be toppled. I really don't know what will happen in the short-term. There is that much instability in Macedonia at the moment that it's hard to predict anything.

          Comment

          • DraganOfStip
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 1253

            #80
            Guess who was at the protests yesteday trying to get some political points while his kid watches violence first hand?




            These people are like leaches,whenever citizens gather to rally against something,they immediately seize the opportunity to show up and be seen.By doing so they give Grujo the excuse to label the protests as organized by SDSM and SOROS and downgrade their importance.I am appalled by parasites like these.
            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
            ― George Orwell

            Comment

            • Volokin
              Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 278

              #81
              Macedonian protesters demand resignation of cabinet, clash with police
              SKOPJE

              (Reuters) - Up to 2,000 protesters clashed with Macedonian police on Tuesday outside the government building in Skopje as they called for the resignation of the prime minister, who is embroiled in a long-running wire-tapping scandal.

              The demonstrators set rubbish containers on fire and threw stones at police who were guarding the building, during a rally calling for the resignation of Nikola Gruevski and his cabinet.

              The interior ministry said at least 10 policemen were injured during and after the two-hour rally. Police in riot gear dispersed the crowd after the rally, a Reuters witness said.

              Gruevski, a Conservative in power for nine years, has been involved in a conflict with Social Democrat opposition leader Zoran Zaev that threatens Macedonia's fragile democracy.

              Zaev has in the last few months published wire-taps of voices purported to include those of Gruevski and senior officials discussing how to employ members of the ruling rightist VMRO-DPMNE party in state jobs, pick judges and massage elections.

              Gruevski has denied the allegations and dismissed the wire-taps as a plot by foreign spies. [ID:nL5N0XI28R]. A state prosecutor indicted Zaev on Thursday for "violence against representatives of the highest state bodies".

              Zaev published a new set of audio files on Tuesday and accused Gruevski and his interior minister of attempting to cover up the death of a 22-year-old man, who was beaten to death by a police officer during a post-election celebration in 2011.

              The officer was later sentenced to 14 years in prison for murder.

              The ministry denied the accusation against Gruevski and his minister and accused Zaev of exploiting a tragic death for political gain.

              The protesters gathered outside the government building hours after Zaev's news conference.


              Skopje (AFP) - At least 19 people were injured Tuesday, including 15 police officers and a photographer, when an anti-government protest in Macedonian capital turned violent.

              Police used teargas and watercannon to disperse some 1,000 people who gathered in front of the government building in Skopje following an opposition leader's accusation that the cabinet of conservative Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski had covered up the 2011 murder of a 22-year old man beaten by police during post-election celebrations.

              Chanting "Murderers! Murderers!" and demanding the government's resignation, protesters threw objects and broke windows at the government building, crashed cars parked nearby and torched several containers.

              Fifteen of the injured were police officers, interior ministry spokesman Ivo Kotevski told AFP, adding that protesters hurled hard objects at the police and that the number of those injured could rise.

              Political tensions in Macedonia have been running high since January when the government brought charges against main opposition party leader Zoran Zaev and four outher people, accusing them of espionage and violence against officials.

              Zaev rejected the accusations and instead claimed the government was wiretapping at least 20,000 people, including politicians, journalists and religious leaders.

              The stand-off has thrown the country into a deep political crisis, prompting the European Union to call for dialogue.

              Zaev's centre-left Social Democrats have been boycotting parliament for almost a year, alleging electoral fraud in April 2014 polls.

              The opposition announced a massive anti-government rally in mid-May.

              Comment

              • Volokin
                Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 278

                #82
                This is getting "interesting" now, for lack of a better word.

                I don't know where this is heading, but I fear now SDSM will grow stronger as a result of these findings, and DPMNE will continue to lose support (not a bad thing, necessarily).

                Macedonia needs a revolution, but what good is that revolution when it get's replaced by those very people who have gone against the Macedonian cause time and time again?

                These current times in Macedonia are probably the closest we have come to an overthrow of the "elected" government.

                The more Zaev and co release, the further DPMNE back themselves into a corner. All they are doing now in response is purely denying all that is leaked as "fabrications". How much longer can they use that?

                When the first happenings of this conflict came about, I hoped that both sides would self-destruct, opening the door for a party true to the Macedonian cause, but now I see now that one will profit, and the other fall.

                DPMNE, as seen by recent rallies in the major cities, still holds strong support. Whether this comes down to them having VMRO in their name, or whether it's just because they have a lion on their crest I will never know...

                Macedonian vs Macedonian conflict is not good at any stage, as a united Macedonia is the only way to stability and progression. This is especially bad given the threat within the state from elements of the Albanian community.

                The Gosince incident was a warning, a warning to Macedonian authorities that the Albanians are still around, armed and ready, to fight for a cause they believe is just.

                With large portions of the Albanian community disenfranchised with the DUI, as seen by last years protests in conjunction with the "Monster" case, this leaves Macedonia at it's least stable moment since 2001.

                I really do wonder what will happen next. Will this all blow over? Will the people continue to revolt? Will the UCK strike?

                Macedonia is facing threats internally and externally, and I say good fucking luck to the Gruevski regime to fix this and come out alive.

                -
                -
                -

                I try to make sense of this but there are still pieces of the puzzle which remain missing for me.

                What do supporters of DPMNE think of all of this? Are they blinded by false patriotism? Do they even know the full extent of what's going on?

                We hear about the media situation in Macedonia being one of the worst in Europe in terms of it being "free", but how is this actually seen on the ground, in the republic?

                MTO members from Macedonia, please explain...

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  #83
                  I just wanted to express some observations and some concerns about whats currently unfolding.

                  Currently there are mass protests in Skopje but also in other cities.

                  After watching a few hours of footage, and talking to everyone I could get a hold of I can say that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

                  First this idea that there is rampant police brutality in Macedonia is frankly laughable. Just take a look at the footage of protesters hitting police with pipes, rocks, glass bottles, kicking punching, etc etc. If that type of violence was committed in the USA against the police, they would have thrown everyone in jail, and probably ending up killing a few people. The police are just standing there and taking the beating, so I have to give them much credit, because if someone came up to me with a pipe and tried to hit me, I would knock them senseless.

                  There are clearly elements at the protests who want to cause chaos and spur violence. Who organizes these elements, well I think we all know.

                  Secondly, there are legitimate grievances here about corruption and public manipulation. The story about the 2011 killing of a boy by a special forces agent, is troublesome. The problem is that the government was not a fault for the death. The agent who committed the murder, actually beat the kid to death, probably for laughs. He was not on official assignment nor was he on duty. People are trying to put it out there that somehow the murder was committed in an official capacity, which is totally untrue.

                  Now where the government was at fault is that they were trying to get ahead of the story and manipulate the public's perception about what had happened, and potentially lessen the legal impact on the guy who committed the murder. People are shocked by this? There is not a government in the world who would not try to spin a story like that so as to lessen the political fallout from it. It doesn't make it right but it is also common practice everywhere in the world.

                  There real guilty part was the police and special forces who were stalling and trying to make up a cover story to hide what had happened.

                  The other alarming but already known fact was that SITEL and Latas seem to be in DPMNE's pocket.

                  People need to focus on the facts and be angry about the facts. Lets now make wild claims and put our focus on the wrong things.

                  One video made me laugh, the second link in Ramo's post above, of the woman screaming like there are about to murder here mail companion. All the police were doing was trying to arrest him, and the woman is hitting the police over and over. Again if that was in the US they would have shot the guy and beat the hell out of the woman. Too much sensationalism and out right attempts to make things seem what they are not.

                  I does seem as though Gruevski's days are numbered, I don't see a way back from all this. Lets all hope for the best because there are big changes coming just no one knows what yet.

                  Comment

                  • julie
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 3869

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                    I just wanted to express some observations and some concerns about whats currently unfolding.

                    Currently there are mass protests in Skopje but also in other cities.

                    After watching a few hours of footage, and talking to everyone I could get a hold of I can say that there is a lot of misinformation out there.

                    First this idea that there is rampant police brutality in Macedonia is frankly laughable. Just take a look at the footage of protesters hitting police with pipes, rocks, glass bottles, kicking punching, etc etc. If that type of violence was committed in the USA against the police, they would have thrown everyone in jail, and probably ending up killing a few people. The police are just standing there and taking the beating, so I have to give them much credit, because if someone came up to me with a pipe and tried to hit me, I would knock them senseless.

                    There are clearly elements at the protests who want to cause chaos and spur violence. Who organizes these elements, well I think we all know.

                    Secondly, there are legitimate grievances here about corruption and public manipulation. The story about the 2011 killing of a boy by a special forces agent, is troublesome. The problem is that the government was not a fault for the death. The agent who committed the murder, actually beat the kid to death, probably for laughs. He was not on official assignment nor was he on duty. People are trying to put it out there that somehow the murder was committed in an official capacity, which is totally untrue.

                    Now where the government was at fault is that they were trying to get ahead of the story and manipulate the public's perception about what had happened, and potentially lessen the legal impact on the guy who committed the murder. People are shocked by this? There is not a government in the world who would not try to spin a story like that so as to lessen the political fallout from it. It doesn't make it right but it is also common practice everywhere in the world.

                    There real guilty part was the police and special forces who were stalling and trying to make up a cover story to hide what had happened.

                    The other alarming but already known fact was that SITEL and Latas seem to be in DPMNE's pocket.

                    People need to focus on the facts and be angry about the facts. Lets now make wild claims and put our focus on the wrong things.

                    One video made me laugh, the second link in Ramo's post above, of the woman screaming like there are about to murder here mail companion. All the police were doing was trying to arrest him, and the woman is hitting the police over and over. Again if that was in the US they would have shot the guy and beat the hell out of the woman. Too much sensationalism and out right attempts to make things seem what they are not.

                    I does seem as though Gruevski's days are numbered, I don't see a way back from all this. Lets all hope for the best because there are big changes coming just no one knows what yet.

                    oh you mean that the police entering the student library where they are cramming for exams in Skopje 16 hours ago dragging students outside and hitting them like in the video shown on this facebook page, is a farce ?




                    and those violent protestors.....singing Macedonian national anthem

                    Last edited by julie; 05-06-2015, 01:39 PM.
                    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      #85
                      The violence isn't going to achieve anything ,its going to cause problems and alienate people more.The people who ordered for violence to occur should be castigated.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • ramo
                        Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 117

                        #86
                        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                        First this idea that there is rampant police brutality in Macedonia is frankly laughable. Just take a look at the footage of protesters hitting police with pipes, rocks, glass bottles, kicking punching, etc etc. If that type of violence was committed in the USA against the police, they would have thrown everyone in jail, and probably ending up killing a few people. The police are just standing there and taking the beating, so I have to give them much credit, because if someone came up to me with a pipe and tried to hit me, I would knock them senseless.

                        There are clearly elements at the protests who want to cause chaos and spur violence. Who organizes these elements, well I think we all know.

                        Secondly, there are legitimate grievances here about corruption and public manipulation. The story about the 2011 killing of a boy by a special forces agent, is troublesome. The problem is that the government was not a fault for the death. The agent who committed the murder, actually beat the kid to death, probably for laughs. He was not on official assignment nor was he on duty. People are trying to put it out there that somehow the murder was committed in an official capacity, which is totally untrue.
                        Government is very fault for this. They are aware there are very aggressive people with psychic problems in the special forces but they need those kind of people because they are killing machines. They are also laughing like devils over the dead of the boy and making jokes of it.

                        Second, the police officer was on duty, the prime minister, the minister of interior, the head of secret police all knew this fact as we can hear (many people knew this fact at that time and that they were lying ). And they tried to cover it up. There are also many other officers on the spot who did not make official written statement about the case and 2 days they were saying they knew nothing and were presenting it as accident happened on festival nearby on the brainwashing media. This covering is punishable by law, many years in prison. They hide this as well as many other crimes they committed.


                        Let me remind all of you how the police reacts when albanian hooligans beat macedonian young man and demolish macedonian church. They do nothing. When their leader (of the albanian hooligans) was arrested another police officer comes and removes the handcuffs (1:46). This was gruevski and jankulovska police. One of those organizers (albanian) that demolished the church on Kale and beat the macedonian young man can be seen sitting together with gruevski in meetings.



                        And you are talking nonsense about the girl afraid for the health of her partner probably. She is most likely afraid that he will end up like Martin Neshkovski there is nothing to laugh about it.

                        Comment

                        • Gocka
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 2306

                          #87
                          I think much of this is over dramatized, but I find it refreshing. Maybe I'm just numb to that sort of violence, since in the US its a daily occurrence for the police to kill somebody, or to rough up protesters.

                          The police are humans too, they are mostly Macedonians and I don't like seeing people beating them up as much as I don't want to see the police beating up people.

                          The bottom line is that it is the police's job to keep order and protect property. Once people start bringing pipes and crude weapons, and start using them, the police have no choice but to act more aggressive.

                          99% of the police were just sitting there and taking a beating.

                          Comment

                          • Gocka
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 2306

                            #88
                            The video of them singing the national anthem, the police didn't do anything to them, so whats your point? There are dozens of videos out there today of mobs assaulting police with everything in sight.

                            My comments were toward the elements of the protesters who are there only to make trouble, I never suggested that the entire protest was illegitimate, because it is clearly legitimate.

                            The video in the library doesn't show anything other then police coming in and coming out with 1 person. They didn't assault any of the students from what you can see in the video. It doesn't mean they didn't but there isn't a lot of hard evidence here to judge from. People screaming doesn't mean anything is happening.

                            I cant possibly judge by these random videos which half the time are so shaky you cant even tell whats happening.

                            Originally posted by julie View Post
                            oh you mean that the police entering the student library where they are cramming for exams in Skopje 16 hours ago dragging students outside and hitting them like in the video shown on this facebook page, is a farce ?




                            and those violent protestors.....singing Macedonian national anthem

                            https://twitter.com/Alisa2be/status/596017323229741057

                            Comment

                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              #89
                              The police are doing exactly what they did when the Albanians were protesting, arrest a hand full and let everyone else beat the crap out of them.

                              People are looking for drama and there isn't as much as is being made out.

                              In the end if it leads to Gruevski's demise then so be it.

                              Originally posted by ramo View Post
                              Government is very fault for this. They are aware there are very aggressive people with psychic problems in the special forces but they need those kind of people because they are killing machines. They are also laughing like devils over the dead of the boy and making jokes of it.

                              Second, the police officer was on duty, the prime minister, the minister of interior, the head of secret police all knew this fact as we can hear (many people knew this fact at that time and that they were lying ). And they tried to cover it up. There are also many other officers on the spot who did not make official written statement about the case and 2 days they were saying they knew nothing and were presenting it as accident happened on festival nearby on the brainwashing media. This covering is punishable by law, many years in prison. They hide this as well as many other crimes they committed.


                              Let me remind all of you how the police reacts when albanian hooligans beat macedonian young man and demolish macedonian church. They do nothing. When their leader (of the albanian hooligans) was arrested another police officer comes and removes the handcuffs (1:46). This was gruevski and jankulovska police. One of those organizers (albanian) that demolished the church on Kale and beat the macedonian young man can be seen sitting together with gruevski in meetings.



                              And you are talking nonsense about the girl afraid for the health of her partner probably. She is most likely afraid that he will end up like Martin Neshkovski there is nothing to laugh about it.

                              Comment

                              • ramo
                                Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 117

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                                I think much of this is over dramatized, but I find it refreshing. Maybe I'm just numb to that sort of violence, since in the US its a daily occurrence for the police to kill somebody, or to rough up protesters.

                                The police are humans too, they are mostly Macedonians and I don't like seeing people beating them up as much as I don't want to see the police beating up people.

                                The bottom line is that it is the police's job to keep order and protect property. Once people start bringing pipes and crude weapons, and start using them, the police have no choice but to act more aggressive.

                                99% of the police were just sitting there and taking a beating.
                                My theory was never that there is excessive police brutality in Macedonia although sometimes it happens, nor that was the intention to the videos i posted. Simply wanted to post about these protests because i thought it was important thing. But since there were very few protests in the past years maybe it is because of that fact.

                                In USA when there are evidence that somebody is corrupt no matter how good he has done to the society (i am not implying our politicians do such good things) he gets arrested. It is a big difference. Imagine what will happen in USA if FBI starts to imprison (and many other stuff) only republicans and conversations leak about that. Do you think the democrats will continue making fools of the american people on media like us in at the moment? Or you think the courts, the police and media will "bombard" them with all their "weapons". In Macedonia has become a lifestyle to be corrupt and be unpunished if you are with the authorities, not only the present authorities. The police job by the Constitution and the laws is to protect all person not only corrupt politician. If they (not just the police but all institutions) get non-constitutional orders, in such case they should not obey those orders . it is written in the laws, not because they simply think it is morally right not to obey such orders. Here we see exactly the opposite. Everybody in the authorities does what these high ranked people in the government order them to do no matter if it is against the law.
                                Last edited by ramo; 05-06-2015, 05:04 PM.

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