United Macedonia Diaspora

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Dzog

Vangelovski,

I am not debating your view on the interplay of democratic republicanism and Constitutions as you are much better versed and qualified in that area and, in any case, I understand and agree with the concepts. However, my understanding is that these ideals need to be enshrined in the Constitution itself rather than the subsequent power that is exercised. Basically, I'm trying to make the point that in Macedonia's case the problem lies in the Constitution and the administrative law structure of the nation as opposed to the actual exercise of the power (although the Macedonian Government should be criticised for not attempting fix the Constitution).

Before I go into further analysis, as you can see I am preoccupied with the Australian Constitution for two primary reasons: 1. it is well drafted and 2. I am more familiar with it than any other. Accordingly, I cannot discount the possibility that the experience in Australia is not transferable to Macedonia's situation, so would appreciate if anyone can provide greater insight into that.

The key issue that I am battling with is trying to figure out what the negotiations are and how this interacts with the Constitution. You suggest that the Macedonian government (as a republican government) is presuming an authority to "negotiate the Constitution with a foreign government". Firstly, the Macedonian Constitution does provide extremely broad powers (just like the Australian Constitution) but the legality of the exercise of said powers depends on the characterisation of the power in the relevant court (Constitutional Court in Macedonia; High Court in Australia) upon challenge. In Australia, judicial decisions have enforced the view that the Commonwealth's powers should be interpreted broadly, as opposed to narrowly by the High Court (see Amalgamated Society of Engineers v Adelaide Steamship Co Ltd (1920) 28 CLR 129 -otherwise known as the Engineer's Case http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/1920/54.html). So, in Australia, I can easily see such negotiations characterised as an exercise of the External Affairs power mentioned in my previous post. In Macedonia's case, we know that the Constitution is not as descriptive as Australia's, but it vests broad powers nonetheless. Now, I have absolutely no idea at how Macedonia's Constitutional Court operates nor have I substantially researched historical decisions, but I suspect that the negotiations could be found squarely within the powers afforded by the Constitution for a couple of reasons:

1. Quite simply, the Constitution gives them that power. The Articles that have been presented by Rogi, Buktop and myself attest to this. Whether or not there is a presumption of the authority is immaterial if it falls within a prescribed power and, if we follow Australia's lead, in Macedonia's case it will.

2. The negotiations are central policy issue in Macedonia today. As undemocratic and "corrupt" as it may sound, I don't see a relatively young Macedonian Constitutional Court stopping this.

An obvious question is why should powers be interpreted broadly? A key reason is context. An article of a Constitution can tend to lose its meaning a couple of hundred years down the track (e.g. Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - The right to keep and bear arms) so courts should necessarily interpret them broadly. Of course, it sounds absurd that a Government can effectively "presume" an authority, as you suggest, but in most cases, it is a legitimate presumption. This reiterates the point that the Constitution itself must espouse the ideals of democracy rather than relying on the executive to do so as a Government, being what it is, will do whatever it can unless it is successfully challenged.

Your next question may be: how then can a Constitution engender democratic principles if Governments are effectively given free reign? As you suggest, it is the factors that limit the government - namely the Constitution itself, the administrative law structures (i.e. Constitutional/High Courts; Ombudsmans; etc.) and the people. Herein lies the divergence between Macedonia and Australia and an answer to your observation that it is the Constitution that is being negotiated. As I have explained earlier, Australia has s128 (requirement of referendum to change the Australian Constitution) whereas Macedonia has Articles 129-131 (Constitution can be changed without referendum). The significance of this is that the Australian Government would not pursue such negotiations (effectively not exercising their power) as there would be no chance that the outcome would be "ratified" by the Australian people. On the other hand, the possibility remains in Macedonia that the Government can unilaterally ratify the outcome of the negotiations (and change the Constitution). The limit that would be apply in Australia is non-existent in Macedonia and no matter how much Gruevski or Ivanov say that referendum will decide, I cannot be convinced. There are obvious problems with the Constitutional Court and administrative law bodies in Macedonia that also facilitate this, but I don't want to complicate things further.

I know the above analysis may seem long-winded but I assure you it is very abbreviated and lacking in proper research, so take from it what you will. In the future, I hope to take further research and hopefully write and disseminate a proper analysis and comparison.

Phoenix,

The underlying point I'm trying to make is that you cannot separate the ideals of democracy from a Constitution and analyse one in the other's terms - if you integrate both Vangelovski's and Buktop's arguments you'll see that the problem is both with the Macedonian Constitution and the Government that is using (or abusing?) it. Essentially, I am criticising the Macedonian Constitution for its flaws but also the Macedonian Government for not fixing these flaws (even though the exercise of their power is, I believe, legitimate in the purely legal sense of the word). Unfortunately, the political situation is such that Macedonia has continually neglected its Constitution and I feel that until it is put into order, the Republic of Macedonia will not progress.

Very nicely put Dzog, my point in arguing that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia is bestowed the power to negotiate is to highlight the fact that the constitution (arguably) is either not properly worded or interpreted. I was surprised when I read the articles concerning the power of the government to alter the constitution without the consent of the people, but this was already proven upon signing of the Interim Accord.

As I have stated before numerous times, I do not disagree with Vangelovski's interpretation of the application of political and legal theories, what I do disagree with is his take on the "reality" of the application and practice of those theories and actual existence of such clauses within the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia that seem to act in contradiction with these theories.

I also find it very interesting that even when put to referendum in 2004, the citizens of Macedonia willingly allowed the government to federalize the Albanian minority through the redrawing of municipalities, and in turn forgo the rights of the citizens residing in the effected area's. I also believe it is the indifference (forced or willing) of the citizens that plays a major factor in many aspects of the power assumed by the government. In Australia and the US there exists a higher willingness to maintain a level of control over government actions, whereas in Macedonia, there is a significant lack of involvement or exercised authority of the citizens to control the actions of the government. I believe this to be caused by the previous era where the rights of the citizens were either limited, or non-existent. I also completely agree that the avenues in which citizens are given to exercise their authority, i.e. the constitutional court, are not particularly well developed.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I don't pretend to be a Constitutional Law expert in the mould of a Buktop for example, I'm very far from that. Being completely ignorant of the polemic nature of this subject, as I'm sure many others are in the wider Macedonian community its all the more important that the organizations that represent our diaspora communities make every effort to ensure that we're not sold down the river.

I'm disgusted that UMD apologists like Buktop and others who wear this ill-fitting suit have attempted to divert the debate from the obvious failings and flaws of these organizations to wiping their hands clean of the responsibility to keep check on a Macedonian government that seems to have the 'power' to do whatever it likes without the carefully worded confines found in other (Western) constitutions.

I'm appalled that Buktop will spend weeks here drawing attention to the articles within the constitution that empower our leaders to do what they please when a more productive use of that time could be spent in making sure that our diaspora organizations are representing the views and interests of the Macedonian people and are acting as a final check and balance in the system.

Thanks Vangelovski and Dzog in sharing your PM with us on this matter.

So you don't know anything about the situation concerning the constitution but you know that I don't know anything?

If I didn't draw attention to the articles in the constitution would you have even known that the constitution provided the government this power, or would you keep arguing in ignorance? I believe that it is very valuable to expose the flaws in the constitution so that people understand where the problem started, and why it was allowed to happen. If you can't understand this then you shouldn't even waste your time in this thread.

The diaspora organizations have NO say in the power that is bestowed upon a government, especially when the Macedonian constitution contains clauses that allow the government to negotiate without the consent of the citizens.

Phoenix, I know you love saying my name and trying to bad mouth me at every turn, but you should really learn to address the substance of my posts rather than your being "appalled" that I am posting. As of yet you have not added any value or relevance to this thread, and I would suggest you use your time to find out the REAL problems with Macedonia rather than bitch about how Maknews made you cry, or how much you hate me for disagreeing with you.

[Prolet]

Buktop, Phoenix is a good person you shouldnt be upset with him, you will see that there is alot of good people in this forum who only want whats best for Macedonia. We should be looking after our interests instead of bending over backwards to please others.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Buktop

I also find it very interesting that even when put to referendum in 2004, the citizens of Macedonia willingly allowed the government to federalize the Albanian minority through the redrawing of municipalities, and in turn forgo the rights of the citizens residing in the effected area's. I also believe it is the indifference (forced or willing) of the citizens that plays a major factor in many aspects of the power assumed by the government.

Hardly the sign of empowered people. I expect this kind of attitude from victims/slaves.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Buktop

So you don't know anything about the situation concerning the constitution but you know that I don't know anything?

If I didn't draw attention to the articles in the constitution would you have even known that the constitution provided the government this power, or would you keep arguing in ignorance? I believe that it is very valuable to expose the flaws in the constitution so that people understand where the problem started, and why it was allowed to happen. If you can't understand this then you shouldn't even waste your time in this thread.

The diaspora organizations have NO say in the power that is bestowed upon a government, especially when the Macedonian constitution contains clauses that allow the government to negotiate without the consent of the citizens.

Phoenix, I know you love saying my name and trying to bad mouth me at every turn, but you should really learn to address the substance of my posts rather than your being "appalled" that I am posting. As of yet you have not added any value or relevance to this thread, and I would suggest you use your time to find out the REAL problems with Macedonia rather than bitch about how Maknews made you cry, or how much you hate me for disagreeing with you.

Buktop, you still dont get it...its not about you and how much you think you know about the constitution.

What concerns me is how we are represented by organizations like the UMD, that is the crux of this issue.

The diaspora may not have a tangible influence over government policy but that doesn't mean we just sit back and let them do what they please because the constitution is flawed.

The role of an organization like UMD should include applying pressure on the Macedonian Government, to lobby Macedonian politicians, to ensure the views of the diaspora are considered and hopefully this will translate into better policy for Macedonia itself and all Macedonians.

I really don't know what you want or what you're defending, I'm still confused on where you stand with the acronym debate and our entry into the EU and NATO from another thread, there somebody called you "defeatist" and here you advocate a similar gutless surrender.

Buktop, I recommend that you watch an Australian movie made in 1997 called 'The Castle'...the movie has a character called 'Dennis Denuto'...you remind me of him.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Buktop

Phoenix, I know you love saying my name and trying to bad mouth me at every turn, but you should really learn to address the substance of my posts rather than your being "appalled" that I am posting. As of yet you have not added any value or relevance to this thread, and I would suggest you use your time to find out the REAL problems with Macedonia rather than bitch about how Maknews made you cry, or how much you hate me for disagreeing with you.

I have not entered into any debate about the constitution of Macedonia. I have not read it in detail. I am much more concerned with the capitulation of Macedonians in the RoMacedonia. To see their stance justified by you with the "do anything to get into NATO/EU" attitude is utterly disappointing to me.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Buktop, Phoenix is a good person you shouldnt be upset with him, you will see that there is alot of good people in this forum who only want whats best for Macedonia. We should be looking after our interests instead of bending over backwards to please others.

Prolet, Phoenix has been talking shit to me and about me for the past 2 weeks, I have every right to be fed up with it.

[Buktop]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Hardly the sign of empowered people. I expect this kind of attitude from victims/slaves.

Then why don't you tell me what you are doing about it? Why don't you tell me why 75% of Macedonians didn't vote in the referendum?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Buktop

Prolet, Phoenix has been talking shit to me and about me for the past 2 weeks, I have every right to be fed up with it.

Keep it coming Dennis, uh...I mean Buktop...

[Prolet]

Buktop, I recommend that you watch an Australian movie made in 1997 called 'The Castle'...the movie has a character called 'Dennis Denuto'...you remind me of him.

hahahahahahahaha

Wasnt that the crooked lawyer? He reminds me more of Dale Kerrigan

YouTube - The Castle house valuation

YouTube - The Castle (Movie) - Gun from the trading post part

hahahahaha one of the best ever Aussie movies.

Tell em his dreamin LOL