Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources

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  • I of Macedon
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 222

    #16
    More from O. Pritsak, Slavs and Avars, also mentioned by Florin Curta

    The non-historical pastoralists or peasants beyond the limes of the existing historical empires (Rome, Iran, China), who had no experience with the larger world, and whose parochial interests therefore did not in any way predispose them to larger political bodies, were more often than not forced into undergoing a period of training that absorbed them into one larger body. This process, which usually lasted over successive generations for at least one century, created an upper class among the trainees that was cognizant of larger political bodies. That class became ready to take part in strengthening a pax and in forging the parochial dialects into a standard medium of communication for the entire pax. Linguae francae developed that embraced diverse linguistic entities into a «common language», whether based on Turkic or Slavic (or other) materials. Upon the demise of the pax, it was possible for several full-fledged «daughter languages» to emerge. This involves a concept of language development often ignored by those who take too literally the model of the genealogical tree of language as it was elaborated during the age of Romanticism. Rather than seeing only branches that continually sprout new branches, we are saying that a lingua franca which has evolved in order to serve large areas itself becomes a new and fairly uniform «tree» that then slowly puts forth new branches.

    I spent four decades studying all twenty-two living Turkic languages, along with all the extinct forms that are known, with the aim of uncovering a Proto-Turkic stage (or perhaps more than one). I could not escape the conclusion that the oldest reconstructable common Turkic is the stage which directly preceded the oldest Turkic written texts, about 550-650, that is to say the time when the Turkic pax with its lingua franca, essentially free of dialectal diversities, was created.

    My friend and colleague, Horace G. Lunt, has recently told me that he has had essentially the same experience with Slavic material. The oldest reconstructable Slavic differs so little from attested Old Church Slavonic, whose normalized form can be put in the ninth century, that OCS itself must be considered a dialect form of Common Slavic, and a dialect-free stage could be envisaged for as late as 750-800.

    Historians have generally used linguistic abstractions, such as the notion of Common Slavic, for their own purposes, without trying to discover what objective reality was behind them. We need to try rather to study concrete peoples in concrete situations, insofar as this is possible. It is my conviction that only a method of historical sociolinguistics, such as we are suggesting here, can produce valid answers to our valid questions.

    Further

    …This analysis shows clearly that §§ 35-36 do not contain precious information about the topography of the putative three branches of the Slavs, contrary to the belief of many scholars. Rather, apart from the current location of the Sclaveni in Jordanes's former homeland, Pannonian Moesia (a civitate Novietunense et laco qui appellatur Mursiano, § 35) and the information on the non-Slavic Vistula Vinidarii, all the data are only various insertions the compiler took from different sources, whether classical writings or oral traditions, of the Goths themselves. Jordanes put the Vinid-, Sclaveni and Antes together not on the basis of ethnic or linguistic criteria, but because all three terms refer to institutions of military colonists on frontier territories. Although this findings may dismay Slavists, it will help historians understand the process of nation-building in medieval Europe and Asia

    The anonymous Miracula S. Demetrii (= Mir II; compiled ca. 675-685) gives a list of five bands (ἔϑνος) of the Sklavins who attacked Thessalonica in 614 . Many scholars have labored in vain to establish Slavic etymologies of these putative «Slavic tribal names» . If the Sklavin troops were created by the Proto-Bulgars sometime during the last decades of the fifth century, as I assume, the self-designations of these bands should reflect the Ponto-Caspian milieu of the time, which was Hunno-(Eastern) Iranian.

    Let us therefore check to see whether the hypothesis holds. Here are the names :

    Βαϊουνητ-
    Βελεγεζητ-
    Βερζητ-
    Δρουγουβιτ-
    Σαγουδατ-

    Four seem to have a suffix /it/, spelled -ητ- or -ιτ-, while the fifth may be seen as without suffix.

    There is a suffix /it/ that is very familiar to Altaists. Indeed, it occurs in the name of the Hunnic Avars: Varxun- it (see fh. 30, above).

    Compare Ἐϕϑαλῖτ-αι, «Hephthalites», derived from the name of their leader Efthal . This seems to be a parallel to a later stage in the linguistic history of this territory, namely the self-designations of groups of Ukrainian Cossacks that were based on the names of their leaders. There were two patterns. The first took the stem of the leader's name, sometimes removing a final suffix, and added a suffix denoting «adherent of» : e.g. Mazepa : Mazep-yn-ci, Lisowski : Lisov-čyk-y (Lat. Lissov-ian-i) . The second was simply the name of the leader, e.g. Barabaš «Left-bank Cossacks (after 1667)», from the name of Colonel Barabaš (fl. 1647-1648) .

    Detaching the it-suffix, let us look at the four bases Baioun-, Belegez-, Berz- and Drougoub-.

    Baioun. Here we can read u or ū < *-aġu- , plus the nominative singular suffix /n/. This is then the equivalent of a well-known Old Turkic word, which occurs with the majestic plural suffix /t/ (because of the meaning): bayagu-t «rich-merchant» (the standard translation of Sanskrit śreṣṭ̣hī). Therefore we posit *bayūn < *baya-ġun .

    Belegez is a reasonable transcription of Hunnic bel-egeč, where *bēl means «five », and *egeč is comparable to Old Turkic äkäč «(elder) sister of the clan» and Old Mongolian egeči «elder sister» . The surname bel-egeč reminds
    one of Beševliev, the surname of the leading Bulgarian specialist in the field of Proto-Bulgarian inscriptions: beš-evli is Ottoman Turkish and means «(having) five wives».

    Berz- is doubtless the front variant of the name of a Khazaro-Bulgarian charismatic clan Barč- ; it can be taken as an incorrectly reconstructed form from Βερζιλ- Barč il > Bärčil, and finally Bärč. The band leader was apparently a member of the Barč clan.

    Drougouw-. This word has three distinct Hunnic (Hunno-Bulgarian) features: first, initial d-, as against Old Turkic t- ; second, metathesis of the vowel, producing a consonant-cluster in initial position, *dur- > dru- ; and third, the development of the final g into -w . The root is the verb *dur- (OTurkic tur-, but Ottoman dur-) «stand», both in the sense of «stand upright» and «stand still» */ġuġ/ is the suffix of nomen usus. This then is a surname *Druġuw (equivalent to Turkic turġuġ, turquġ), signifying «he who usually stands still». Kāšġarī, the eleventh-century Turkic philologist explains the name (in Arabic) thus: «shyness (shame, diffidence) about something; one says ol mändän turquġ = (Arabic) ṣāra minnī ḥayīyan li-fi̒l badā minhū «he is ashamed before me over a matter that arose concerning him» . The surname *Druguw was probably used jocularly, as an antonym, for a very forceful person (in the manner common among the Zaporogian Cossaks later).

    The fifth name, Sagudat-, with no suffix, is of Eastern Iranian origin: *sāka-dāt «gift of the stag» - the stag was the totem of the Scythians . The etymon *śāka, in Ossetian sag, is rendered in the Bactrian inscriptions as CΑΓΓΟ, CΑΓΟ; in the middle of the fourth century there was a Scythian people on the Danube called Saga-dares *sāga-dār «stag [totem] possessor» . Old Persian dāta is Middle Persian, e.g. Pahlavi, d’t .

    Conclusion: the five names preserved in Mir II are not «Slavic tribal names», but self-designations of Proto-Bulgarian Sklavin bands; accordingly they have clear Hunnic or Iranian etymologies.

    Since all attempts to find an etymology of the term Sklavin- / Slav-, on native ground have failed, one is tempted to look elsewhere . Proto-Bulgarian seems the most promising spot. There we find a common Hunno-Turkic word saqla-, 'to watch over, guard, protect' . The noun derived from it by the suffix */GU/ is attested in Kazan-Tatar (Muslim progeny of the Volga Bulgars) and in Karaim (modern Qipčaq-Polovcian), where the suffix became /-w/. In these languages the noun saqla-w means 'guard, watch; guarding' in the senses of actor, profession, place, or action As early as Proto-Bulgarian, the suffix */GU/ had become /w/ : e.g., κολο-β-ρ (< *qola-ġu-r) 'leader' . Further, in Proto-Bulgarian stress moved from the root syllable to the suffix, and the root vowel then reduced, e.g., *dawl-an > dwan 'hare', *tovirəm > tvirəm «the ninth» . Therefore one can assume that in Proto-Bulgarian the old *saqla-ġu would develop as *saqla-w and later as sqlaw-. Proto-Bulgarian also had a collective suffix /-in/, used especially to designate peoples: e.g., Volga Bulgarian Bulgar-in, «the Bulgars», Sowar-in «the Sowars» .

    Thus our conclusion is that there was a Proto-Bulgarian word saqlaw > sqlaw with the plural form *sqlaw-in and two meanings: 1) «guard, watch, guarding»; 2) «trained slave». The Arabs, who were engaged in the slave trade, (see below), adopted the singular form as ṣ(a)qlab, meaning «trained slave», while the Byzantines, who were interested in contacts with the collective of the sqlawin on their limes, adopted it as sklavin, adding a plural desinence: Σκλαβην-οί. In Slavic, the suffix was modified to the collective plural -ěn-e, denoting a social group, correlated with the singulative suffix -in-, while the impermissible initial cluster *skl was reduced to sl.

    The term sklavin of the Byzantine cultural sphere between the sixth and ninth centuries was very tightly connected with the Avar Pax. In contemporary testimonies, whenever the Sklavins appear, the Avars are almost invariably also referred to, though sometimes indirectly, usually as their masters.

    The term Sklavin, then, I contend, did not have an ethnic or linguistic entity as its referent, but was classificatory, designating in the first instance barbaric professional frontier warriors. No single common Slavic nation existed, nor can we assume a feeling of one Slavic ethnic commonality. Instead, the sources show that the term ἡ Σκλαβηνία / Σκλαυηνία (sing.) or αἱ Σκλαβηνίαι / Σκλαβινίαι / Σκλαυινίαι (pl.) had the meaning «any regions occupied by the Sklavin», that is, a stronghold, whether small or large in area, of the frontier military colony type. The first author to use the term Σκλαυηνία was Theophylact Simocattes (fl. 610-641) referring to barbarians' strongholds on the left bank of the Danube. The institution was known throughout the entire province of Lower Pannonia. Several scholars (e.g. G. Ostrogorsky,
    Leszek Moszyński's paper, gives the gratifying assurance that even in Poland, the bastion of Slavic scholarly patriotism, a sober perspective is possible. He states clearly that the term Slověne was never used as a self-designation by any «Proto-Slavic» tribe.
    No need to sit in the shade, because we stand under our own sun

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #17
      Hmmm, this is quite consistent with many Macedonian views that suggest the attackers of Solun were not Slavs. And gives greater credence to the fact that the natives of Solun must have been slavic speaking already. Very interesting and thought provoking post.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Delodephius
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 736

        #18
        And the Svevi?
        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

        Comment

        • I of Macedon
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 222

          #19
          Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
          And the Svevi?

          I can't help you with that, all I'm providing here is what I have read from the authors above. If you want more clarification or some additional information you're going to have to somehow get in contact with O. Pritsak and/or Florin Curta among others.
          No need to sit in the shade, because we stand under our own sun

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            That is a very interesting perspective I of Macedon, thanks for sharing. Slovak, is there any way to interlink this to the Suevi?
            Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
            And the Svevi?
            Simocatta at times refers to the Slavs as either with the Avars or Avars themselves, I think this needs to be looked at much closer as there is some pontential information here that could help put some missing pieces together.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #21
              Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources

              We should create a chronology here with all citations of when people and groups are first referred to as 'Sklave/Sclave' and 'Sloven' so we can get a better picture of what exactly happened, when, where it took place, and the circumstances in which the author's wrote their works. If anybody has quotes to contribute, please do so, and if possible cite the year of the event and/or year of writing. Where this cannot be provided then the year of the writer's passing will be used.

              The timeframe of sources and events sought is from the 6th century onwards, and anything up to the 18th century, however, if there are quotes previous to this period that can be useful, they are also welcome. I will start a list with some quotes and update it with each new reference brought forth.


              550 AD: Procopius, Secret History, 18.
              Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Huns, Sklaves and Antes, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these incursions, I should say, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia................neither the Persians nor the Saracens, the Huns or the Sklaves or the rest of the barbarians, were able to withdraw from Roman territory undamaged. In their inroads, and still more in their sieges of cities and in battles, where they prevailed over opposing forces, they shared in disastrous losses quite as much.
              551 AD: Jordanes, Getica, 34-35.
              ........beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.
              557 AD: Procopius, Buildings, 4-1-1.
              For these works have been executed with due regard for the nearness of the Ister River and for the consequent necessity imposed by the barbarians who threaten the land. For it has as neighbours nations of Huns and of Goths, and the regions of Taurus and of Scythia rise up again it, as well as the haunts of the Sclaveni and of sundry other tribes — whether they are called by the writers of the most ancient history Hamaxibian or Metanastic Sauromatae, and whatever other wild race of men really either roams about or leads a settled life in that region.
              584 AD: John of Ephesus, Ecclesiastical History, III.25, VI. 25.
              .......barbarian tribes which had risen up against the powerful empire of the Romans: and after the death of Justin, they pressed upon him with still greater violence, especially the accursed tribes of the Sclavonians, and those who, from their long hair, are called Avars..........being the third after the death of king Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Sclavonians, who overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find.
              630 AD: Theophylact Simocatta, History.
              ….the emperor enquired what was their nation, where was their allotted abode, and the cause of their presence in the Roman lands. They replied that they were Sclavenes by nation and that they lived at the boundary of the western ocean…...….....the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercly ravaging the regions of Thrace………….this is the older name for the barbarians.....
              689 AD: Theophanes, Anni Mundi 6095-6305.
              In this year Justinian campaigned against the Sklavinia and Bulgaria. Advancing to Thessalonike, he thrust back as far as possible the Bulgars he encountered. He conquered large hosts of Sklavenes (some in battle, but others went over to him) and settled them in the Opsikion, sending them across by way of Abydos.
              692 AD: Theophanes, Anni Mundi 6095-6305.
              In this year, Justinian made a selection from the Sklavenes he had resettled. He levied 30,000 men, armed them, and named them the "special army". Their commander was named Neboulos.....but Muhammad suborned the general of the Sklavenes allied to the Romans....deceiving him with many promises, persuaded him to desert to the Arabs with 20,000 Sklavenes. Then Justinian massacred the remaining Sklavenes (and their wives and children) at Leukate, a precipitous place by the sea on the gulf of Nicomedia.
              694 AD: Theophanes, Anni Mundi 6095-6305.
              Muhammad attacked Romania; he had with him the Sklavenes who had fled, as they had experience of Romania.
              754 AD: Theophanes, Anni Mundi 6095-6305.
              The Persians opposed Abd Allah, but the inhabitants of Syria were devoted to him and fought on his side. Abu Muslim raised his army and engaged Abd Allah near Nisibis, where he defeated him and killed many of his men. Most of them were Sklavenes and Antiochenes.
              758 AD: Theophanes, Anni Mundi 6095-6305.
              In this year Constantine captured the Macedonian Sklavinias and subjected the rest of them.
              871 AD: Anastasius the Librarian, Miracles, 9.
              There was a certain bishop from the country of the Africans, Cyprian by name, who cared for the true priesthood and led a life most deserving of God. He arranged to journey to the queen of cities, Byzantium, on a pressing matter of necessity. And when they had sailed for many days and had already drawn near to the regions of Greece, he was captured by the most fierce Sclavenes together with all his [companions]. When they had divided these captives among themselves, the [Sclavenes] enslaved the aforementioned bishop together with his [companions]. When these things had been done in this way, they returned to their native places, and each barbarian placed the burden of slavery upon his captive according as he wished.
              899 AD: St Clement, Life of Methodius (Emperor Michael III to SS Cyril and Methodius.
              You are both Salonikans, and all Salonikans speak pure Slavonic.
              905 AD: John Cametinae, On the Capture of Salonika (By Muslim forces).
              I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians.......The citizens, in fact, were anything but remiss in their use of archery, and used it to great and conspicuous effect by stationing all the Sklavenes gathered from the neighbouring regions at those points from which it was easiest to shoot accurately and where there was nothing to deflect the momentum of their missiles.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Pelister
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 2742

                #22
                I think the title thread should read "Who are the Sklavoi" even though you make it clear that we are talking about the Sklavoi/Sklavenoi in the opening lines.

                The reason why I suggest that is because "Slav" when used today is too vague - and could in the mind of any given reader mean very different things.

                I am sick of the way so called "scholars" like Vryonis use it in an ethnic sense. Strictly speaking today "Slavic" referes to a language. The "Sklavoi" of the early middle-ages, could have been anyone or anything - so a distinction needs to be made in the classification from the begginning.

                The way things a going every time the term "Slav" is mentioned, some people might immediately think "Macedonians".

                Hopefully I can contribute a bit to this. I just took out the Florin Curta book.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #23
                  I appreciate where you are coming from Pelister and the negativity that many of you have towards the term, and everything you stated above I considered prior to deciding on the title. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that because 'Slav' is so commonly yet vaguely used and not properly understood, and given that it is this term and not 'Sklave/Sclave' that is being used today to refer to this 'elusive' and 'fluid' group, it would be the best option. At least this way, when people search for 'Slavs' they will eventually come across this thread, which will document, detail and eventually explain away the vagueness and negativity concerning the term, in the context of all its various meanings and derivatives. We can also discard any inconsistencies relating the term and its history, whereas leaving it at 'Sklave/Sclave' will mean limited this little project to between the 6th and 9th century, which would not do the topic justice. We have nothing to hide, let's study, criticize and inspect this topic as thoroughly as can be, and show the world the truth.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3810

                    #24
                    A good source would be Constantine Porphyrogenitus. I cannot find what he said exactly from his memoirs (Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De Administrando Imperio By Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Gyula Moravcsik, Romilly J. H. Jenkins 2009) but I do recall him saying something to the extent that 'all of greece is Slav' etc etc. I am going to get the above book and post the exact words he used. Also I think he relates pechenegs and the slavs??? I may be wrong on this but I think I remember reading this somewhere.
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #25
                      I think that excerpt is in 'The Themes'. I have his books, I will get to them soon, probably later today.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Pelister
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2742

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        I appreciate where you are coming from Pelister and the negativity that many of you have towards the term, and everything you stated above I considered prior to deciding on the title. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that because 'Slav' is so commonly yet vaguely used and not properly understood, and given that it is this term and not 'Sklave/Sclave' that is being used today to refer to this 'elusive' and 'fluid' group, it would be the best option. At least this way, when people search for 'Slavs' they will eventually come across this thread, which will document, detail and eventually explain away the vagueness and negativity concerning the term, in the context of all its various meanings and derivatives. We can also discard any inconsistencies relating the term and its history, whereas leaving it at 'Sklave/Sclave' will mean limited this little project to between the 6th and 9th century, which would not do the topic justice. We have nothing to hide, let's study, criticize and inspect this topic as thoroughly as can be, and show the world the truth.
                        My concern is the confusion caused by the use of the term "Slav". I don't think its accurate to be calling the 5th and 6th century invaders by that term, even though Western writers do just that. It would be better to investigate who the Roman writers and later writers were referring to - that is identifying them. I would be less concerned about convincing Western writers that they do not know Who they are talking about - and more concerned with getting the terminology right, because I feel that much of the confusion stems from poor translations and poor classifications. I would argue that "Sklavonoi" and the later use of the term "Sklavoi" which are direct translations from the Greek, are not the same as "Slav". I would argue that the use of the term "Slav" is simply a distortion. The wrong classification/mispelling of the names given to these tribes - is where the problem begins because the term "Slav" has OTHER uses in the modern age. I thought that a good way to begin - and its only a begginning - would be to first of all accurately study these tribes by the names given to them by their contemporaries, not us. It is only a suggestion though. Any connection to the "Slavic speakers" of today will come later, once we find out Who the Sklavoi were. One reason I would argue for using the term conteporaries used, is because it clears up befuddled classifications. I think a correction probably needs to start here. I think it is important to discuss this and I am glad I am having this talk with you about it because "Who are the Sklavoi"? rather than "Who are the Slavs?" is a far more accurate and more focused study. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility (perhaps) that the term Sklavoi - was eventually used to describe other groups of people, other cultures, perhaps some native? But this suggestion needs to be focused within the Roman/Byzantine period - using "their" terms, not ours before any connections (if at all) can be made with 'Slavic speakers' today. I think that this shift in how they are classified should start with us to tell the world the truth yet to be revealed. You see I think this is where Florin Curta has it wrong.

                        Looking forward to your thoughts.
                        Last edited by Pelister; 09-29-2009, 10:45 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Pelister
                          My concern is the confusion caused by the use of the term "Slav".
                          That's the point mate, we cannot deny that this is the term, 'Slav', that is used today for whatever matters as opposed to 'Sklave/Sclave'. Therefore, let us clear that confusion with this thread, and expose when they are connected and when they are not, as the years go by.

                          Naming the title 'Sklave' would put limits on the period of time, and will also restrict matters concerning the connection (later or otherwise) to 'Slav'. Perhaps what you are suggesting is for a separate topic where we could research and detail the term 'Sklave' specifically. With this thread I was hoping to highlight the terms in light of their relation to each other and how they developed throughout the years.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • TrueMacedonian
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3810

                            #28
                            I'm just wondering if any of you have the book by Barford called 'The Early Slavs'?
                            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                            Comment

                            • Pelister
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2742

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              That's the point mate, we cannot deny that this is the term, 'Slav', that is used today for whatever matters as opposed to 'Sklave/Sclave'. Therefore, let us clear that confusion with this thread, and expose when they are connected and when they are not, as the years go by.

                              Naming the title 'Sklave' would put limits on the period of time, and will also restrict matters concerning the connection (later or otherwise) to 'Slav'. Perhaps what you are suggesting is for a separate topic where we could research and detail the term 'Sklave' specifically. With this thread I was hoping to highlight the terms in light of their relation to each other and how they developed throughout the years.
                              How do we clear the confusion ? I have thought about that question alot.

                              The first step is to drop the term "Slav". To beat the liberal and loose use of the term "Slav" by Westerners - we need to be specific about "Who" the "Sklavenoi/Sklavoi" were, what language they spoke before any connections can be made between them, and modern day "Slavic speakers".

                              Are you asking who the descendants of present day "Slavic speakers" were, or are you asking Who was behind the term "Sklavenoi/Sklavoi"? That would be far more effective. The term "Slav" the way you are using it is neither here nor there - it is neither a linguistic group, nor a tribe - it connects nothing, because it is nothing. I would suggest you define your group, before you start asking questions about "Who they are"?.If you answer that you are talking about "The Slavs?" - well, who do you mean ? I think its best to avoid vague connections across groups spanning over a thousand years. If we do not know what the language of the Sklavenoi was - we do not know. But at least then we can say there is no material evidence that are connected to modern Slavic speakers. If modern Slavic speakers use a language identical to the ancient Thracians, and the ancient Sklavenoi can be shown to be a Thracian tribe, then there is a connection.

                              I think this is the most effective way to hit back.

                              I have noticed that some Greek historians like to replace the term "Roman" with the term "Greek" because some of them used the Greek language. Kaldellis exposes it best in his book "Hellenism in Byzantium ...see footnote 220".

                              If you were trying to find out where the term "Slav" sits in the literature, I can understand why you would use it, but if you are assuming that there is a real material/linguistic connection between the tribe "Sklavenoi" and the term "Slav" (how would you know that? You do not know who the "Sklavenoi" were, and "Slav" is neither an ethnic group, nor a national group, even though it is wrongly referred to as such). When Westerners use the term "Slav" what do they mean by it , and how can we correct them ?

                              The term "Slav" cannot be used scientifically to refer to both 6th century invaders (firstly because they were NOT called "Slavs" by their contemporaries) and at the same time to be used to describe modern day "Slavic speakers", because there is no evidence of a material and/or linguistic connection between the two groups.
                              Last edited by Pelister; 10-01-2009, 03:27 AM.

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                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #30
                                Originally posted by TrueMacedonian
                                I'm just wondering if any of you have the book by Barford called 'The Early Slavs'?
                                I have heard of it, but don't have it. I have meaning to get Florin Curta's book for a while but haven't got around to it yet. Have any of you read it thoroughly?
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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