Financial Crisis in Greece

[George S.]

They ar busy packing their bags and getting out of the country

[Amphipolis]

This is British, slightly pro-Greek, slightly funny and can help you understand this rather complicated issue.

In 10 flashcards.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2015/07/01/idiots-guide-wtf-happening-greece/

[Risto the Great]

Sounds like Scientology. It all seems reasonable if you assume the original borrowing is normal. The original borrowing should never have happened. People often go bankrupt by borrowing money and spending it stupidly. I don't feel sorry for Greece one bit. They absolutely invited this economic misery.

[George S.]

The original loan was for about 30 billion but someone convinced them they could get 300 billion.Has anyone bothered to investigate if all that money was spent and where it went.???The greeks did lend ??to other countries like Bulgaria?how much??
Just heard on the sbs news that the greek priminister has told the greeks to vote no at the referendum.

[Amphipolis]

Surprise: According to exit polls NO is winning with 51-52,5%. Hmmm....

[Amphipolis]

More surprises: Eventually NO is winning with 60% !!!!! So, closed banks didn't scare people enough.

This is the on-line map of results (in English)

http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22main%22,%22params%22:{}}

==

[Phoenix]

More surprises: Eventually NO is winning with 60% !!!!! So, closed banks didn't scare people enough.

This is the on-line map of results (in English)

http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22main%22,%22params%22:{}}

==

Have you ever heard of the word 'delusion'...?
This is the very root of your problems (Greeks in general).
It's a serious mental problem whereby those inflicted by this insidious illness fail to distinguish from what is deemed real and what is imagined.
Setting aside any argument about what is real or imagined at the quantum level, it's fair to say that your reality (most greeks) is not the same as everyone else's 'reality'.

It's apparent that delusion in Greece is more than just a mental issue, it is a problem that is as much cultural.
It has seeped into every layer of Greek society...the gravy train is now officially a train wreck on a national scale.

Greeces problems go way beyond the economy...
Enjoy the last vestiges of 'democracy' and 'protest'...

[Gocka]

That's beauty of reality, sooner or later it catches up to even the most delusional. The Greek government is hoping that that the No vote will somehow give them more bargaining power to demand better terms on a new bailout. Europe hasn't given a shit what Greeks think since the get go, why would Europe care any more now? The reality is that Europe knew it would come to this eventually but they bought themselves some time over the last few years to limit the damage. I think they are now ok with Greece leaving the euro and this will be proven when Europe tables the same offer that was on the table before and refuses to make any compromises with Greece.

This hasn't happened in the modern day world, and since most of the world runs on credit Greece is in for a big shock come next week when their banks are bone dry and literally their economy stops. We are about to witness the most epic collapse of the 21st century.

Greece was in a lose lose situation, if they kept accepting Europe's terms, then Greece would just be paying interest and accumulating debt for the rest of eternity. If they rejected monetary enslavement than they have to deal with the harsh repercussions. Rejecting Europe is actually very brave and the right thing to do for the long term, but I don't think they realize what they are in for in the near term. Greeks are about to get very poor for a while, and that might bring civil conflicts. Lets not forget they only recently had a civil war and a military junta. If they can manage to keep everyone sane in this very dark stretch, they will come off better, but that's easier said than done.

Have you ever heard of the word 'delusion'...?
This is the very root of your problems (Greeks in general).
It's a serious mental problem whereby those inflicted by this insidious illness fail to distinguish from what is deemed real and what is imagined.
Setting aside any argument about what is real or imagined at the quantum level, it's fair to say that your reality (most greeks) is not the same as everyone else's 'reality'.

It's apparent that delusion in Greece is more than just a mental issue, it is a problem that is as much cultural.
It has seeped into every layer of Greek society...the gravy train is now officially a train wreck on a national scale.

Greeces problems go way beyond the economy...
Enjoy the last vestiges of 'democracy' and 'protest'...

[Gocka]

Also if Macedonia had any sense or balls, they would slap a full embargo on Greece. They slapped one on Macedonia when we were vulnerable, and they got us to capitulate on our flag and name. Their economy will be so fragile that even something small like Macedonia imposing an embargo will cause real pain. Then Macedonia should demand that Greece agree to leave us alone about our name and symbols, and we should go back to our original flag and name.

I'm dreaming of course, Macedonians are cowards and they would never defy Europe and ruin our great "friendships" with such a brazen move. Sigh, if only we were still brave.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Also if Macedonia had any sense or balls, they would slap a full embargo on Greece. They slapped one on Macedonia when we were vulnerable, and they got us to capitulate on our flag and name. Their economy will be so fragile that even something small like Macedonia imposing an embargo will cause real pain. Then Macedonia should demand that Greece agree to leave us alone about our name and symbols, and we should go back to our original flag and name.

I'm dreaming of course, Macedonians are cowards and they would never defy Europe and ruin our great "friendships" with such a brazen move. Sigh, if only we were still brave.

If Macedonia were to ever place an economic embargo on Greece now would be the time. But the difference between now and back in the 90s is that Macedonia would suffer just as much from said embargo. But I guess it would be a matter of who could hold out for longer, and right now, it doesn't seem like much is needed at all for Greece to collapse. It would be political suicide though.

[Stojacanec]

I don't call having a choice on repaying a debt, a demacracy. This is an abuse of the term. greece has failed in managing the country's debt/gdp levels. she has borrowed beyond its means. you can't have a $1.5bn defence budget just because you feel like it.

if the government cannot find a way to balance the budget going forward greece is set for a lot of pain and lessons of harsh reality. they should stop looking at the mythical past in an attempt to solve today's problems.

[VMRO]

http://www.pressenza.com/2015/07/debt-and-militarism-the-greek-tragedy-europe-prefers-to-keep-quiet-about/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+pressenza%2FQrjW+%28News+from+Pressenza+IPA+in+English%29

Debt and militarism: the Greek tragedy Europe prefers to keep quiet about



A particularly insightful opinion piece by Giles Fraser [1] for the Guardian reminds us that “In the 1980s, for example, the Greeks spent an average of 6.2% of their GDP on defence compared with a European average of 2.9%. In the years following their EU entry, the Greeks were the world’s fourth-highest spenders on conventional weaponry.” And “corrupt German companies bribed corrupt Greek politicians to buy German weapons. And then a German chancellor presses for austerity on the Greek people to pay back the loans they took out (with Germans banks) at massive interest, for the weapons they bought off them in the first place. Is this an unfair characterisation? A bit. It wasn’t just Germany.” In fact France was there too. His central point is that “As Greece’s spending on weapons shows, it’s not pensions or benefits that cripple economies, it’s the military-industrial complex”.

The Greek official that accepted bribes from German Arms Companies is now in prison but the Greek debt to those companies, and banks it took loans from to pay for them are considered sacrosanct.

“Greece should not make cuts in its defence spending and had played an important role in southern Europe as a NATO member, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told a German television station…” In fact Greece was seen as a first line of defence against Communism, leading to its 70’s military coup, and increased its military budget even more after the conflict with Turkey over Cyprus.
A bit of History

The history of militarism and debt is long and full of examples of movements that attempted to resist taxation on ordinary people in order to fund military campaigns.

It has been suggested that tax resistance played a significant role in the collapse of several empires, including the Egyptian, Roman, Spanish, and Aztec.

In 411 B.C Aristophanes’ play, Lysistrata poses the idea that Greek women could refuse to have sex with their war-mongering husbands until they agreed to stop fighting, combined with an early example of war tax resistance.

Alexander (the “Great”), however, apparently had only 70 talents of silver and 30 days’ supply of food for his Asia campaign; it would appear that he intended to live off the land and pay for his expedition with plunder. So we cannot blame the strongest Helleniser of Asia (in spite of not being Greek but Macedonian) for setting the example of militarism and debt.

The Zealots (ancient Judea) resisted the Roman poll tax during the 1st century AD, culminating in the First Jewish–Roman War.

Other historic events that originated as tax revolts include the American Revolution, the French Revolution and the 800 year old Magna Carta: In 1202 King John of England raised taxes to pay for a new war against France. The barons were furious at the waste of money and forced King John to agree a list of promises on 15th June 1215 when Magna Carta was born – one of the most important documents in the history of human rights.

The English Peasants’ Revolt of 1381 was precipitated by King Richard II’s heavy-handed attempts to enforce the third medieval poll tax, first levied in 1377 supposedly to finance military campaigns overseas.

Charles I of England tried to levy money without the consent of Parliament in coastal towns during a time of war, and it provoked increasing resistance. It was one of the causes of the English Civil War, where he lost his head.

In Britain income tax was introduced in 1799, to pay for weapons and equipment in preparation for the Napoleonic wars, whilst the US federal government imposed their first income tax in the Revenue Act of 1861 to help pay for the American Civil War.

In 1846 Henry David Thoreau refused to pay the annual $1.50 ($36 in 2010 dollars) Massachusetts poll tax levied for the Mexican War. These events were central to his developing ideas of Civil Disobedience.
Back to Greece

Economists have calculated that if Greece had cut defence spending to levels similar to other EU states over the past decade, it would have saved around €150bn — more than its last bailout. According to SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) statistics, even though Greek military spending has declined since the crisis, Greece is the second-biggest defence spender (in relation to its GDP) among the 27 NATO countries, after the U.S.

Whatever the result of the referendum, Greece must start a comprehensive plan of disarmament and default, as a matter of urgency, on the illegal military contracts it was bribed into entering.

As for the Troika, if they do not apply a more reasonable and compassionate hand, in particular now that the IMF has acknowledged the need for debt relief and allowing for growth and development to be part of debt repayment, Europe may well find itself with a military coup on its doorstep, and plenty of ultra-fascist groups festering in what little will be left of the country.

1. Dr Giles Fraser is priest-in-charge at St Mary’s Newington in south London and the former canon chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral. Acting in that capacity he was central to allowing the establishment of the Occupy campsite at St Paul’s churchyard in 2011.

[Phoenix]

http://www.pressenza.com/2015/07/debt-and-militarism-the-greek-tragedy-europe-prefers-to-keep-quiet-about/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+pressenza%2FQrjW+%28News+from+Pressenza+IPA+in+English%29

Debt and militarism: the Greek tragedy Europe prefers to keep quiet about



A particularly insightful opinion piece by Giles Fraser [1] for the Guardian reminds us that “In the 1980s, for example, the Greeks spent an average of 6.2% of their GDP on defence compared with a European average of 2.9%. In the years following their EU entry, the Greeks were the world’s fourth-highest spenders on conventional weaponry.” And “corrupt German companies bribed corrupt Greek politicians to buy German weapons. And then a German chancellor presses for austerity on the Greek people to pay back the loans they took out (with Germans banks) at massive interest, for the weapons they bought off them in the first place. Is this an unfair characterisation? A bit. It wasn’t just Germany.” In fact France was there too. His central point is that “As Greece’s spending on weapons shows, it’s not pensions or benefits that cripple economies, it’s the military-industrial complex”.

The Greek official that accepted bribes from German Arms Companies is now in prison but the Greek debt to those companies, and banks it took loans from to pay for them are considered sacrosanct.

“Greece should not make cuts in its defence spending and had played an important role in southern Europe as a NATO member, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told a German television station…” In fact Greece was seen as a first line of defence against Communism, leading to its 70’s military coup, and increased its military budget even more after the conflict with Turkey over Cyprus.
A bit of History

The history of militarism and debt is long and full of examples of movements that attempted to resist taxation on ordinary people in order to fund military campaigns.

It has been suggested that tax resistance played a significant role in the collapse of several empires, including the Egyptian, Roman, Spanish, and Aztec.

In 411 B.C Aristophanes’ play, Lysistrata poses the idea that Greek women could refuse to have sex with their war-mongering husbands until they agreed to stop fighting, combined with an early example of war tax resistance.

Alexander (the “Great”), however, apparently had only 70 talents of silver and 30 days’ supply of food for his Asia campaign; it would appear that he intended to live off the land and pay for his expedition with plunder. So we cannot blame the strongest Helleniser of Asia (in spite of not being Greek but Macedonian) for setting the example of militarism and debt.

The Zealots (ancient Judea) resisted the Roman poll tax during the 1st century AD, culminating in the First Jewish–Roman War.

Other historic events that originated as tax revolts include the American Revolution, the French Revolution and the 800 year old Magna Carta: In 1202 King John of England raised taxes to pay for a new war against France. The barons were furious at the waste of money and forced King John to agree a list of promises on 15th June 1215 when Magna Carta was born – one of the most important documents in the history of human rights.

The English Peasants’ Revolt of 1381 was precipitated by King Richard II’s heavy-handed attempts to enforce the third medieval poll tax, first levied in 1377 supposedly to finance military campaigns overseas.

Charles I of England tried to levy money without the consent of Parliament in coastal towns during a time of war, and it provoked increasing resistance. It was one of the causes of the English Civil War, where he lost his head.

In Britain income tax was introduced in 1799, to pay for weapons and equipment in preparation for the Napoleonic wars, whilst the US federal government imposed their first income tax in the Revenue Act of 1861 to help pay for the American Civil War.

In 1846 Henry David Thoreau refused to pay the annual $1.50 ($36 in 2010 dollars) Massachusetts poll tax levied for the Mexican War. These events were central to his developing ideas of Civil Disobedience.
Back to Greece

Economists have calculated that if Greece had cut defence spending to levels similar to other EU states over the past decade, it would have saved around €150bn — more than its last bailout. According to SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) statistics, even though Greek military spending has declined since the crisis, Greece is the second-biggest defence spender (in relation to its GDP) among the 27 NATO countries, after the U.S.

Whatever the result of the referendum, Greece must start a comprehensive plan of disarmament and default, as a matter of urgency, on the illegal military contracts it was bribed into entering.

As for the Troika, if they do not apply a more reasonable and compassionate hand, in particular now that the IMF has acknowledged the need for debt relief and allowing for growth and development to be part of debt repayment, Europe may well find itself with a military coup on its doorstep, and plenty of ultra-fascist groups festering in what little will be left of the country.

1. Dr Giles Fraser is priest-in-charge at St Mary’s Newington in south London and the former canon chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral. Acting in that capacity he was central to allowing the establishment of the Occupy campsite at St Paul’s churchyard in 2011.

I think the article is biased toward the plight of the Greeks, once again there's an overriding lack of accountability or responsibility in its analysis of the Greeks and their role in their self destruction.
The author, like the view of most Greeks is that they've been wronged by the Europeans, that somehow the hapless Greeks were hoodwinked into decades of militarism and forced debts.

That's just bullshit and a cop out...what about the billions of euros down the toilet when they hosted the Olympic Games...I guess the Greeks were forced into that dodgy deal as well...

[Phoenix]

I don't call having a choice on repaying a debt, a demacracy. This is an abuse of the term. greece has failed in managing the country's debt/gdp levels. she has borrowed beyond its means. you can't have a $1.5bn defence budget just because you feel like it.

if the government cannot find a way to balance the budget going forward greece is set for a lot of pain and lessons of harsh reality. they should stop looking at the mythical past in an attempt to solve today's problems.

In true Balkan tradition the only solution is that Greece be divided up amongst it's neighbours...

[Stojacanec]

In true Balkan tradition the only solution is that Greece be divided up amongst it's neighbours...

There are sectors within greece that are seriously contemplating independence, anyway.