United Macedonia Diaspora - Page 8

Vangelovski · 01-09-2009, 12:39 AM

Volk,

I'll repost all the facts that you pretend not to know about UMD.

Isolation? What isolation? What kind of isolation? Isolation from whom? Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats, that if we don't capitulate this "one last time" there will be consequences, but if we do "all will be well with time".

Volk · 01-09-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

I'll repost all the facts that you pretend not to know about UMD.

Please do, why would i pretend not to know?

Quote:

Isolation? What isolation? What kind of isolation? Isolation from whom? Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats.

Wow... that's it? isolation from whom? well from the world bodies Macedonia has been admitted under fyrom, including the UN, WTO, IMF and most sporting bodies including FIFA and the Olympic Games. If you dont understand the abbreviations put them in google.

My question was simple, are you advocating that Macedonia renounce membership in all of these international organizations that have admitted us as fyrom? thus advocating isolation.

My point was if we can join these under fyrom why not NATO where we (theoretically) would receive the greatest strategic benefit.

Quote:

Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats.

Now your just making yourself sound very childish.

Vangelovski · 01-09-2009, 12:55 AM

What I'm advocating is that Macedonia withdraw from negotiations and excercise its national sovereignty and the human rights of the Macedonian people rather than undermine them. That is the reason the Macedonian people established an independent state.

By YOUR logic, Macedonia should be able to switch to its constitutional name within these organisations that you mention because its already a member - that is exactly what YOU are suggesting that Macedonia do with NATO. You are becoming as contradictory as UMD. In one sentence you say we will be isolated if we do not capitulate and in another you claim that once we become a member of NATO, we'll be able to revert back to our constitutional name. Why can't we revert to our constitutional name now that we are a member of all these international organisation your praise? I suppose, in typical capitulatory fashion, you will claim that NATO is the important one. Then you will call for further capitulation because you will claim that the EU is important. Then you won't want to offend your foreign masters and the charade will continue. Do you see the parallels with Gligorov and Crvenkovski?

As for the UMD related material, I'll collate and post tonight. If you are not pretending to not know, then you must have the memory of a goldfish, as we were debating this very topic only a week ago on Maknews. Maybe you just don't read the threads?

Rogi · 01-09-2009, 01:04 AM

Tom, this message is mostly for you, because you know most of us on the board and both you and I remember those arguments that took place right before you left UMD.

Nobody on the UMD board supports a name-change.

For those that may have agreed to a 'political' or 'geographic' identifier in the past, they no longer support that position now.

I wish more people with the right ideas would get involved and help steer the ship in the right direction.

As UMD gets bigger and bigger, influence comes from many different angles and it's hard (and gets harder) to keep this ship going in the right direction and others who steer it from accepting wrong guidance or being subtly influenced into the wrong direction.

So rather than letting the wrong people get involved who have ulterior motives, as we've seen happen with organisations such as MPO, etc... I really wish the people who understand the fundamental principles of Human Rights and Macedonian sovereignty and the Macedonian cause would get in involved and keep it clean.

Do you remember our private discussions about why you shouldn't have left UMD?

Pelister, "nationalism" is not a dirty word for UMD. It is a word some people in UMD consider a dirty word. I am not one of them and that word and its meaning is something that I have had debates over with certain colleagues of mine from UMD. You might have come a cross certain public glimpses of that debate in a thread or two over at maknews... but I agree that some in UMD think that being 'moderate' is opposite to being 'nationalist', but by very definition a 'nationalist' is someone who supports the Independence and Sovereignty of his/her nation.

Risto the Great · 01-09-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand
This one suggests the UMD is keen to have Macedonia participate in negotiations.

Quote:
Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations
This one says Greece will do whatever it wants irrespective of the negotiations.

This first quote is bad as it suggests the UMD is keen to see constructive negotiation.
The second quote is merely a reality but does validate the negotiation process.

The above quotes are quite rightly worthy of scrutiny.

Volk, you clearly have stated that you are comfortable with Fyrom as a temporary name for Macedonia to gain NATO entry. This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You have also said you have changed your mind in relation to this matter a few times as well. Based on your sentiments, I would imagine you are actually happy with the above quotes. Many do not agree to this temporary solution and you appear to feel that trying clarify the position of the UMD in relation to this matter is a "no-go area". Is it really that bad to ask the question?

Volk · 01-09-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

What I'm advocating is that Macedonia withdraw from negotiations and excercise its national sovereignty and the human rights of the Macedonian people rather than undermine them. That is the reason the Macedonian people established an independent state.

Good then we are advocating the same thing. The only difference is that I am advocating Macedonia withdraw from them once it has counter measures to ensure greece cannot put us on our knees. This includes alternate trade routes other than Solun.

This shift has already started; move to Crna Gora as main port, establishment of cargo airport in Stip and completion of corridor 8.

Quote:

By YOUR logic, Macedonia should be able to switch to its constitutional name within these organisations that you mention because its already a member - that is exactly what YOU are suggesting that Macedonia do with NATO

Correct... You have still not adressed my argument in regards why it is ok for Macedonia to join these organisations under fyrom and not NATO.
If it is not okay, should Macedonia withdraw from them?

Quote:

In one sentence you say we will be isolated if we do not capitulate

How is joining NATO under fyrom a capitulation? (the whole debate is useless because we where blocked) We are not changing our name.

Quote:

As for the UMD related material, I'll collate and post tonight

Please, I'll be very surprised to actually see anything of substance.

Volk · 01-09-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Volk, you clearly have stated that you are comfortable with Fyrom as a temporary name for Macedonia to gain NATO entry

I am not comfortable with it at all, I cannot be comfortable with anything else than Macedonia, hence my mindset moving between the two sides.

Quote:

I would imagine you are actually happy with the above quotes. Many do not agree to this temporary solution and you appear to feel that trying clarify the position of the UMD in relation to this matter is a "no-go area". Is it really that bad to ask the question?

Quote:

Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand

Risto,
Maybe it is in the eyes of the reader, this is how I understand it;
Macedonia should be seen as constructive and participating in the talks, the aim of the negotiations for the Macedonian side is Macedonia for the IC, dual name for greece. (this is the only thing I can accept as a compromise and which the government has also indicated)
Now saying greece does not participate means that they do not want to solve the problem, hence rendering the talks pointless and useless. Its an attempt to discredit the talks and their legitimacy.

Quote:

Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations

This simply states that greece is blocking us regardless of our name, that it is just a excuse for them. I dont see anything wrong with these statments.

Vangelovski · 01-09-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogi

Tom, this message is mostly for you, because you know most of us on the board and both you and I remember those arguments that took place right before you left UMD.

Nobody on the UMD board supports a name-change.

For those that may have agreed to a 'political' or 'geographic' identifier in the past, they no longer support that position now.

I wish more people with the right ideas would get involved and help steer the ship in the right direction.

As UMD gets bigger and bigger, influence comes from many different angles and it's hard (and gets harder) to keep this ship going in the right direction and others who steer it from accepting wrong guidance or being subtly influenced into the wrong direction.

So rather than letting the wrong people get involved who have ulterior motives, as we've seen happen with organisations such as MPO, etc... I really wish the people who understand the fundamental principles of Human Rights and Macedonian sovereignty and the Macedonian cause would get in involved and keep it clean.

Do you remember our private discussions about why you shouldn't have left UMD?

Pelister, "nationalism" is not a dirty word for UMD. It is a word some people in UMD consider a dirty word. I am not one of them and that word and its meaning is something that I have had debates over with certain colleagues of mine from UMD. You might have come a cross certain public glimpses of that debate in a thread or two over at maknews... but I agree that some in UMD think that being 'moderate' is opposite to being 'nationalist', but by very definition a 'nationalist' is someone who supports the Independence and Sovereignty of his/her nation.

Rogi,

You know I don't consider you to be part of the circle within UMD whose motives and ideology I question. Of everyone there I think our views were the closest in relation to most issues.

I am still interested in knowing if UMD has a stand on the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, and if so, what is it?

Vangelovski · 01-09-2009, 01:59 AM

Volk, when you have something sensible to contribute, I'll reply, otherwise I have better things to do with my time.

Soldier of Macedon · 01-09-2009, 02:57 AM

If I may propose a hypothetical scenario for just a moment, I would like to know what are the immediate and long-term implications if the Macedonian state were to pull out of this illegal negotiation for our name?

What is the worst that could possibly happen?

What do we stand to gain?

I see two camps here, one calling for the immediate withdrawal of these negotiation and let the chips fall where they may, and the other calling for more time to better prepare for the exit, I think there are pros and cons in both arguments that can be explored, which is why this particular topic has evolved the way it has, what I am sure of is that everybody taking part in this discussion loves Macedonia and wants what is best, only the differing methods hold back any sort of unison.

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01-09-2009, 12:39 AM	#71
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, I'll repost all the facts that you pretend not to know about UMD. Isolation? What isolation? What kind of isolation? Isolation from whom? Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats, that if we don't capitulate this "one last time" there will be consequences, but if we do "all will be well with time". __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-09-2009 at 12:43 AM.

01-09-2009, 12:55 AM	#73
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	What I'm advocating is that Macedonia withdraw from negotiations and excercise its national sovereignty and the human rights of the Macedonian people rather than undermine them. That is the reason the Macedonian people established an independent state. By YOUR logic, Macedonia should be able to switch to its constitutional name within these organisations that you mention because its already a member - that is exactly what YOU are suggesting that Macedonia do with NATO. You are becoming as contradictory as UMD. In one sentence you say we will be isolated if we do not capitulate and in another you claim that once we become a member of NATO, we'll be able to revert back to our constitutional name. Why can't we revert to our constitutional name now that we are a member of all these international organisation your praise? I suppose, in typical capitulatory fashion, you will claim that NATO is the important one. Then you will call for further capitulation because you will claim that the EU is important. Then you won't want to offend your foreign masters and the charade will continue. Do you see the parallels with Gligorov and Crvenkovski? As for the UMD related material, I'll collate and post tonight. If you are not pretending to not know, then you must have the memory of a goldfish, as we were debating this very topic only a week ago on Maknews. Maybe you just don't read the threads? __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-09-2009 at 01:00 AM.

01-09-2009, 01:59 AM	#79
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, when you have something sensible to contribute, I'll reply, otherwise I have better things to do with my time. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

01-09-2009, 02:57 AM	#80
Soldier of Macedon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Macedonian Outpost Posts: 13,660	If I may propose a hypothetical scenario for just a moment, I would like to know what are the immediate and long-term implications if the Macedonian state were to pull out of this illegal negotiation for our name? What is the worst that could possibly happen? What do we stand to gain? I see two camps here, one calling for the immediate withdrawal of these negotiation and let the chips fall where they may, and the other calling for more time to better prepare for the exit, I think there are pros and cons in both arguments that can be explored, which is why this particular topic has evolved the way it has, what I am sure of is that everybody taking part in this discussion loves Macedonia and wants what is best, only the differing methods hold back any sort of unison. __________________ In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

01-09-2009, 01:04 AM	#74
Rogi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,343	Tom, this message is mostly for you, because you know most of us on the board and both you and I remember those arguments that took place right before you left UMD. Nobody on the UMD board supports a name-change. For those that may have agreed to a 'political' or 'geographic' identifier in the past, they no longer support that position now. I wish more people with the right ideas would get involved and help steer the ship in the right direction. As UMD gets bigger and bigger, influence comes from many different angles and it's hard (and gets harder) to keep this ship going in the right direction and others who steer it from accepting wrong guidance or being subtly influenced into the wrong direction. So rather than letting the wrong people get involved who have ulterior motives, as we've seen happen with organisations such as MPO, etc... I really wish the people who understand the fundamental principles of Human Rights and Macedonian sovereignty and the Macedonian cause would get in involved and keep it clean. Do you remember our private discussions about why you shouldn't have left UMD? Pelister, "nationalism" is not a dirty word for UMD. It is a word some people in UMD consider a dirty word. I am not one of them and that word and its meaning is something that I have had debates over with certain colleagues of mine from UMD. You might have come a cross certain public glimpses of that debate in a thread or two over at maknews... but I agree that some in UMD think that being 'moderate' is opposite to being 'nationalist', but by very definition a 'nationalist' is someone who supports the Independence and Sovereignty of his/her nation.

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