United Macedonia Diaspora - Page 10

Vangelovski · 01-09-2009, 11:13 PM

Rogi,

A UN Resolution (Security Council or General Assembly) is worse - rather than having just Greece exercising a say on our name, you would then be inviting multiple countries to get involved, even up to nearly 200 in the General Assembly. And for what purpose? Who are any of them to "vote" on what our name should be? What right do any of them have to determine our name?

If you're interested in exercising sovereignty, then you simply send a note to all states that have diplomatic relations with Macedonia and to all organisations that Macedonia is a member of and inform them that from now on end, they will refer to us as 'Macedonia'.

Sovereignty needs to be assertive and it needs to be exercised, not begged for, and not voted on by foreign governments.

Pelister · 01-10-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Rogi,

A UN Resolution (Security Council or General Assembly) is worse - rather than having just Greece exercising a say on our name, you would then be inviting multiple countries to get involved, even up to nearly 200 in the General Assembly. And for what purpose? Who are any of them to "vote" on what our name should be? What right do any of them have to determine our name?

If you're interested in exercising sovereignty, then you simply send a note to all states that have diplomatic relations with Macedonia and to all organisations that Macedonia is a member of and inform them that from now on end, they will refer to us as 'Macedonia'.

Sovereignty needs to be assertive and it needs to be exercised, not begged for, and not voted on by foreign governments.

Thats it in a nutshell for me Vangelovski.

Giving people the opportunity "to vote" on what OUR name should be - is giving ALL the power in regards to who we are over to others.

Volk · 01-10-2009, 01:41 AM

Quote:

SoM,

Volk, and some of his like-minded scaremongers are alluding to an 'economic embargo'. There are two key points to keep in mind:

1. The 1995 embargo was 'unilateral' - Macedonia never reciprocated and Greek products were free to cross the Macedonian border.

2. Greece would not only be hurting the investments of private Greek companies, but of other foreign companies were it to instigate another embargo.

3. Greece is already placing embargo's on certain Macedonian products and Macedonia again is not reciprocating.

So now that I am advocating a policy where the country would be in a position to absorb an economic attack on the country I am a scaremonger?

What else can greece do if we abandon the talks??

They will take a course to directly destroy our state, they will not coincide defeat for the sake for a few million dollars.

I believe their last option will be an attempt to destabilize the country.
Economic embargo is easiest way to achieve this as the siptars will be screaming they do not want to live in such country.

If you think an embargo is scare mongering please enlighten everyone by giving us your thought on what they would do? nothing? They are already trying to destroy our nation.

If some of you think they will not be willing to exercise an embargo (illegal like the first one) because they have invested so much, look at the invested amount and compare it to the size of their economy and their desire to absorb Macedonia as a hellenic identity...

I am not saying we should remain in the talks, I am advocating we remain in the 'talks' until reasonable countermeasures have been realized, like using crna gora as a port, the building of stip cargo airport and corridor 8 (if its viable)

Volk · 01-10-2009, 01:47 AM

BTW, your 'evidence' against the UMD is just statements of political posturing.

Quote:

our position is double formula.

Now read all the 'evidence' keeping this in mind, it might help you understand it better.

Quote:

We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it
has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.

This I dont agree with whatsoever.

Vangelovski, wouldn't you better our cause by spending your time attacking organisations that are actually trying to eliminate our nation and not Macedonian ones with whose ideologies or wording you disagree with?

Rogi · 01-10-2009, 01:50 AM

Tom, I don't believe that's a realistic option in the UN, because a previous UN Resolution exists- even if we declare that resolution as null and void, that doesn't mean the UN will, does it?

Soldier of Macedon · 01-10-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volk

I am not saying we should remain in the talks, I am advocating we remain in the 'talks' until reasonable countermeasures have been realized, like using crna gora as a port, the building of stip cargo airport and corridor 8 (if its viable)

Volk, can we consider how long a wait there will be until these have been realized, in your opinion, what are we looking at, 6 months, 12 months, etc?

Also Volk, what are the implications of another Greek embargo, are we still that dependant on them, and if so, for what exactly? The (occupied) Macedonian ports? The inward/outward goods and trade relations the Greeks? How do we lose with the introduction of a Greek embargo against us?

Vangelovski · 01-10-2009, 01:54 AM

Volk,

Its not the Greek State that has invested in Macedonia - its PRIVATE investors who's financial interests directly clash with the political adventurism of the Greek Government. And its not only Greek companies that have invested in Macedonia - companies based in other countries have as well.

Greece got away so lightly in 1995 because the cowards in the Macedonian Government did not reciprocate the embargo. They enforced an embargo on Macedonia without having to worry that the Macedonian Government might close the Macedonian side of the border.

The measures you are talking about are good, I'm not disputing their usefulness, but you should keep things in perspective about potential Greek "retaliation".

Vangelovski · 01-10-2009, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volk

BTW, your 'evidence' against the UMD is just statements of political posturing.

Now read all the 'evidence' keeping this in mind, it might help you understand it better.

This I dont agree with whatsoever.

Vangelovski, wouldn't you better our cause by spending your time attacking organisations that are actually trying to eliminate our nation and not Macedonian ones with whose ideologies or wording you disagree with?

Volk,

UMD made those statements, not me. Read the post, visit the links - they are the exact words of UMD. I merely copied and pasted them.

I don't agree with MPO or SDSM - should I leave them alone as well?

Maybe you should try and understand (I've already explained it to you on Maknews) what the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement actually mean for Macedonia.

Vangelovski · 01-10-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogi

Tom, I don't believe that's a realistic option in the UN, because a previous UN Resolution exists- even if we declare that resolution as null and void, that doesn't mean the UN will, does it?

How many UN Security Council Resolutions have been abided by? Particularly ones that undermine national sovereignty, which according to the UN charter is illegal in itself.

The UN is nothing more than a group of sovereign states - none need the permission of any other or the group as a whole to exercise their own SOVEREIGNTY.

Think of it like this - You have common interests and even work together with your neighbour and the Board Members of UMD, but do you ask your neighbour or the Board Members of UMD if and when you can be intimate with your partner?

Our freedom is our most intimate "political partner" - if we have to consult others on if and when we choose to exercise our freedom, then we don't really have it and eventually someone will come and take it away completely. Its the same with your "romantic partner". If your constantly asking your neighbour what to do, one day he'll come over and show you.

Volk · 01-10-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Volk, can we consider how long a wait there will be until these have been realized, in your opinion, what are we looking at, 6 months, 12 months, etc?

Also Volk, what are the implications of another Greek embargo, are we still that dependant on them, and if so, for what exactly? The (occupied) Macedonian ports? The inward/outward goods and trade relations the Greeks? How do we lose with the introduction of a Greek embargo against us?

Once we have established crna gora as our sea port and build a international cargo airport our reliance of greece greatly diminishes.
I am unsure of the time frame but a realistic estimate would be 1 - 2 years, hopefully earlier.

The embargo crippled us in 95 because our border to serbia was shut, we simply had no access to the international market. We are not in the same situation now, however an embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments, ruin our image, cut the economy by , I am estimating 20% with thousands losing their jobs. This coupled with the world financial crisis which has already effected the industrial and textile sector would be a setback of 10 years. The albanians are a critical factor in this as well, they will scream why should be pay for your name.

Completing corridor 8 (west to east Macedonia) would mean we are not bound by the blackmails of the south. albania would then be our port, bulgaria is within immediate access (currently there is no infrastructure).

Dont get me wrong, if we abandoned the talks tomorrow I would be cheering up and down finally at least of ending the humiliation. However we need the plans in place to absorb the damage, another year or so will not kill us taking into account the ramifications.

Meanwhile the 'greeks' can drive to serbia on Aleksandar Makedonski highway

View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes	2	4.35%
No	44	95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

01-09-2009, 11:13 PM	#91
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Rogi, A UN Resolution (Security Council or General Assembly) is worse - rather than having just Greece exercising a say on our name, you would then be inviting multiple countries to get involved, even up to nearly 200 in the General Assembly. And for what purpose? Who are any of them to "vote" on what our name should be? What right do any of them have to determine our name? If you're interested in exercising sovereignty, then you simply send a note to all states that have diplomatic relations with Macedonia and to all organisations that Macedonia is a member of and inform them that from now on end, they will refer to us as 'Macedonia'. Sovereignty needs to be assertive and it needs to be exercised, not begged for, and not voted on by foreign governments. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-09-2009 at 11:20 PM.

01-10-2009, 01:54 AM	#97
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, Its not the Greek State that has invested in Macedonia - its PRIVATE investors who's financial interests directly clash with the political adventurism of the Greek Government. And its not only Greek companies that have invested in Macedonia - companies based in other countries have as well. Greece got away so lightly in 1995 because the cowards in the Macedonian Government did not reciprocate the embargo. They enforced an embargo on Macedonia without having to worry that the Macedonian Government might close the Macedonian side of the border. The measures you are talking about are good, I'm not disputing their usefulness, but you should keep things in perspective about potential Greek "retaliation". __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

01-10-2009, 01:50 AM	#95
Rogi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,343	Tom, I don't believe that's a realistic option in the UN, because a previous UN Resolution exists- even if we declare that resolution as null and void, that doesn't mean the UN will, does it?

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