Politics and elections in France

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  • DraganOfStip
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 1253

    #46
    Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
    Fascism is a left-wing ideology, as is Nazism. Hitler's regime was left-wing, as was Italy's fascist regime. There is nothing "right-wing" in national socialism or government control of anything, including the media and corporations.

    The problem lies in the definition of terms. A classical liberal is not a modern day liberal. And a classical conservative is not a modern day conservative. There is serious confusion on this.

    In addition, it never ceases to amaze me how the god of the West, democracy, is continually exalted until a people vote in a manner that certain Western intellectuals do not like. The French public have spoken; it is their decision.
    OK, so 7 billion people on this planet are wrong regarding what's left and right, and you're the one who's right .
    Leaving that aside,I didn't post this to discuss what's far-left and what's far-right.
    The point is the alarming rise of this ideology (call it whatever you like) in Europe,something that as history shows us doesn't end well.
    Here's a satirical reflection on this trend by English comedian John Oliver:
    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
    Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-07-2015, 07:57 AM.
    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
    ― George Orwell

    Comment

    • Philosopher
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1003

      #47
      Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
      OK, so 7 billion people on this planet are wrong regarding what's left and right, and you're the one who's right .
      Leaving that aside,I didn't post this to discuss what's far-left and what's far-right.
      The point is the alarming rise of this ideology (call it whatever you like) in Europe,something that as history shows us doesn't end well.
      Here's a satirical reflection on this trend by English comedian John Oliver:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uMTY9mzzw
      Please do not misunderstand me, I was not critiquing you, but the article you posted. Yes, I understand why you posted it, and I recognize we are not debating left or right wing ideologies.

      Fascism comes from the word fascio, meaning "bundle" or "group". Like national socialism, it is an ideology emphasizing a nation or race over the individual; and like national socialism, it is based on a centralized autocratic ruler who controls the media, corporations, and the economy.

      Traditional right-wing ideology is based on the opposite: free markets, individualism, freedom of movement, little to no centralized government.

      Regardless whether we agree or disagree with the French political mandate, I do not see how it can be politically tied to Hitler or genocide.

      Comment

      • DraganOfStip
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2011
        • 1253

        #48
        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
        Please do not misunderstand me, I was not critiquing you, but the article you posted. Yes, I understand why you posted it, and I recognize we are not debating left or right wing ideologies.
        If you do, then the next things you posted:
        Fascism comes from the word fascio, meaning "bundle" or "group". Like national socialism, it is an ideology emphasizing a nation or race over the individual; and like national socialism, it is based on a centralized autocratic ruler who controls the media, corporations, and the economy.

        Traditional right-wing ideology is based on the opposite: free markets, individualism, freedom of movement, little to no centralized government.
        ...should have been kept for yourself.
        Please,no more definitions or explaining on what fascism/nazism/whatever-ism is.

        Regardless whether we agree or disagree with the French political mandate, I do not see how it can be politically tied to Hitler or genocide.
        Did you miss the part that the party in question was formed by ex collaborators with the German occupying forces in France,and office-bearers of the Vichy government (who directly enforced the rounding up of jews,roma etc for extermination in concentration camps)?
        Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-07-2015, 08:44 AM.
        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
        ― George Orwell

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          #49
          Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
          If you do, then the next things you posted:

          ...should have been kept for yourself.
          Please,no more definitions or explaining on what fascism/nazism/whatever-ism is.
          Naturally, you didn't think I was going to let your statement go unanswered:

          Originally posted by DraganofStip
          OK, so 7 billion people on this planet are wrong regarding what's left and right, and you're the one who's right.
          Thus, a definition was necessary to clarify the matter.

          Originally posted by DraganofStip
          Did you miss the part that the party in question was formed by ex collaborators with the German occupying forces in France,and office-bearers of the Vichy government (who directly enforced the rounding up of jews,roma etc for extermination in concentration camps)?
          Dragan, there is much that does note make sense. However, there is nothing in the current National Front platform that suggests genocide or ethnic cleansing (I doubt there ever was). Moreover, the central platform of the National Front is to maintain and preserve the French identity in France, which would include language, culture, religion, and race.

          If the Macedonian government would do the same I think nearly all of us would support that measure.

          The problem is, and it is a problem, is that you have fallen for the media argument that to preserve one's nationality is equivalent to radical and far out right-wing politics that is in the shadows of Hitler and Nazism.

          You are smarter than that. Think more critically.

          Comment

          • DraganOfStip
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 1253

            #50
            Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
            Naturally, you didn't think I was going to let your statement go unanswered:

            Thus, a definition was necessary to clarify the matter.
            Maybe for you,not for me.I know what fascism/nazism is.
            Enough with this.
            Dragan, there is much that does note make sense. However, there is nothing in the current National Front platform that suggests genocide or ethnic cleansing (I doubt there ever was).
            I have no doubt in my mind that Hitler's party program in 1933 when he came to power suggested anything about the systematical extermination of an entire ethnicity, discriminating (maybe it's too mild of a word) non-Aryans,homosexuals etc, occupying most of Europe and committing other atrocities that are yet to be matched.
            Such a nice guy he turned out to be once he came to power.
            You are smarter than that too.
            Moreover, the central platform of the National Front is to maintain and preserve the French identity in France, which would include language, culture, religion, and race.
            Most fascist parties' platforms contain that too.
            After all,they're the only true patriots,are they not?
            Franco and Mussolini among others are not exceptions.
            If the Macedonian government would do the same I think nearly all of us would support that measure.
            Not me.

            The problem is, and it is a problem, is that you have fallen for the media argument that to preserve one's nationality is equivalent to radical and far out right-wing politics that is in the shadows of Hitler and Nazism.
            You are smarter than that. Think more critically.
            Which part of "Nazi collaborators" didn't you understand?
            National Front is no better than Jobbik or Golden Dawn among others,and as a Macedonian who would some day might want to relocate to France you should find this news very disturbing.
            Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-07-2015, 10:24 AM.
            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
            ― George Orwell

            Comment

            • DraganOfStip
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2011
              • 1253

              #51
              A good analysis of the danger of right-wing seizure of power in France,by Deutsche Welle.
              If anyone knows the threat of going far-right, it's sie Germans.

              Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-07-2015, 11:41 AM.
              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
              ― George Orwell

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                #52
                Originally posted by DraganofStip
                I have no doubt in my mind that Hitler's party program in 1933 when he came to power suggested anything about the systematical extermination of an entire ethnicity, discriminating (maybe it's too mild of a word) non-Aryans,homosexuals etc, occupying most of Europe and committing other atrocities that are yet to be matched.
                Such a nice guy he turned out to be once he came to power.
                You are smarter than that too.
                Wow. Just wow.

                As far as I know, Hitler had no extermination “final solution” policy towards Jews, other than expulsion from Germany and Europe. Hitler's policies, however, were nothing compared to the mass murders by Bolshevik Russia and Mao's China. So the statement “yet to be matched” is incorrect.

                Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.
                Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward killed forty five million in four years.

                He was a communist (left-wing ideology).

                Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.


                Stalin is said to have killed more than twenty million, not to mention all the blood Jewish Bolsheviks spilled against gentile Christian Russians, which far exceeded Hitler's final solution policy.

                However, I'm surprised you do not like Hitler, considering he was a left-wing socialist, like yourself.

                Originally posted by DraganofStip
                Most fascist parties' platforms contain that too.
                After all,they're the only true patriots,are they not?
                Franco and Mussolini among others are not exceptions.
                Here we go again. Learn what the word means man. Stop repeating yourself. If in a democracy a people vote for a political mandate to protect its language, culture, borders, customs, and traditions from foreigners they have every legal right to. This is not hate.

                Your problem is that you cannot imagine such a policy existing without genocide or ethnic cleansing.

                That's insane.

                Originally posted by DraganofStip
                Which part of "Nazi collaborators" didn't you understand?
                National Front is no better than Jobbik or Golden Dawn among others,and as a Macedonian who would some day might want to relocate to France you should find this news very disturbing.
                I understand quite well.

                The problem you have is that you do not respect the elections of sovereign states. You, like the rest of your ilk, have a serious problem with people exercising democracy in a fashion that is unsuitable to your political beliefs. In your warped ideology, people who value their national identity and want to protect their national identity are Nazis and fascists. Frankly, you are on the extreme end of political spectrum. Very typical of fascists.

                You do not live in France. You are not a French citizen. What the people in France want is up to them. The policies of France are determined democratically by the people of France, not by you or anyone else.

                The fact that you cannot or will not accept this is mind boggling. Frankly, I could not care less who the French people elect.

                Originally posted by DraganofStip
                A good analysis of the danger of right-wing seizure of power in France,by Deutsche Welle.
                If anyone knows the threat of going far-right, it's sie Germans.
                You mean far-left. Hitler was a gun-confiscating socialist.
                Last edited by Philosopher; 12-07-2015, 07:22 PM.

                Comment

                • DraganOfStip
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 1253

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                  As far as I know, Hitler had no extermination “final solution” policy towards Jews, other than expulsion from Germany and Europe.
                  You must be joking.You're even denying the holocaust now?!
                  To use your own words: "Wow.Just wow."
                  Hitler's policies, however, were nothing compared to the mass murders by Bolshevik Russia and Mao's China. So the statement “yet to be matched” is incorrect.

                  Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward killed forty five million in four years.

                  He was a communist (left-wing ideology).

                  Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.


                  Stalin is said to have killed more than twenty million, not to mention all the blood Jewish Bolsheviks spilled against gentile Christian Russians, which far exceeded Hitler's final solution policy.
                  My point was that 90% of what he did after coming to power was not in his party program.You said that National Front's party program never included genocide or ethnic cleansing.
                  I just replied that neither did Hitler's.You should learn to read between the lines instead of taking things literally.
                  However, I'm surprised you do not like Hitler, considering he was a left-wing socialist, like yourself.
                  You even dare to call me a nazi now?
                  Watch it,you're crossing the line here.
                  Here we go again. Learn what the word means man. Stop repeating yourself. If in a democracy a people vote for a political mandate to protect its language, culture, borders, customs, and traditions from foreigners they have every legal right to. This is not hate...
                  ...The problem you have is that you do not respect the elections of sovereign states. You, like the rest of your ilk, have a serious problem with people exercising democracy in a fashion that is unsuitable to your political beliefs. In your warped ideology, people who value their national identity and want to protect their national identity are Nazis and fascists...
                  No one's questioning the legality OR people's right to vote according to their beliefs,what the hell are you talking about?
                  Did I ever question that here?Please,by all means pinpoint and quote me where have I said that.
                  You do not live in France. You are not a French citizen. What the people in France want is up to them. The policies of France are determined democratically by the people of France, not by you or anyone else.
                  Like I stated above,I don't deny that.
                  I do not live in France,but many Macedonians do (some 15 000 of them) and to them and to the other French citizens that are not ethnically French this is bad news.Even ethnic French that are muslim or gay or any other social group that doesn't fit Le Pen's platform will be affected.Any other future Macedonian that has thought about emigrating to France will be affected by this too.
                  I simply can't understand why you can't see how this is bad news for Macedonians.
                  You mean far-left. Hitler was a gun-confiscating socialist.
                  For the last time,don't preach me what's far-left and far-right.
                  7 billion people just happen to disagree with you.Keep your definitions to yourself.
                  Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-08-2015, 04:10 AM.
                  ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                  ― George Orwell

                  Comment

                  • Philosopher
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1003

                    #54
                    Originally posted by DraganofStip
                    You must be joking.You're even denying the holocaust now?!
                    To use your own words: "Wow.Just wow."
                    Naturally, we are not debating the historicity of the holocaust. Here is the problem. You wrote that Hitler had no policy of genocide when he came into power. You then repeated that claim:

                    My point was that 90% of what he did after coming to power was not in his party program.You said that National Front's party program never included genocide or ethnic cleansing.
                    I just replied that neither did Hitler's.
                    So Hitler had no extermination policy when he took power. It is widely believed by historians that even when Hitler was in power he had no formal or written extermination policy. Ostensibly, the final solution was an expulsion of Jews out of Germany and Europe.

                    Learn to analyze information Dragan.

                    Originally posted by DraganofStip
                    No one's questioning the legality OR people's right to vote according to their beliefs,what the hell are you talking about?
                    Did I ever question that here?Please,by all means pinpoint and quote me where have I said that.
                    Why bring up for discussion this topic? It is a Macedonian forum. You have a serious phobia of “right-wing” politics. You dislike the political shift France has undertaken. The only logical deduction is that you do not respect the political mandate the French public have made. In fact, you have a serious problem with it. I never said you questioned the legality of the vote. I said it is not illegal for a country to protect its national identity.

                    Only intolerant left-wing extremists cannot respect the popular and democratic decisions of sovereign states.

                    Originally posted by DraganofStip
                    Like I stated above,I don't deny that.
                    I do not live in France,but many Macedonians do (some 15 000 of them) and to them and to the other French citizens that are not ethnically French this is bad news.Even ethnic French that are muslim or gay or any other social group that doesn't fit Le Pen's platform will be affected.Any other future Macedonian that has thought about emigrating to France will be affected by this too.
                    I simply can't understand why you can't see how this is bad news for Macedonians.
                    Have you actually read the Front National's platform? How is this bad news? Here is a snippet of the platform:

                    -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
                    -A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
                    -An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.
                    -A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.
                    -Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.
                    -Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.
                    -Banning dual nationality for non-Europeans, which would particularly affect citizens of former French colonies in Africa.
                    As Marine Le Pen, who heads France’s far-right National Front (FN), tries to form a eurosceptic group in Brussels with other like-minded political movements, FRANCE 24 takes a look at her party’s policies.


                    I fail to see how your ignorant and alarming statements comports with the Front National platform.

                    The fact that you and other Macedonians don't like this policy is too bad. You are visitors. Grow up.

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      #55
                      I don't know enough about the National Front to comment on where exactly I think it lies on the political spectrum, but I agree that having a totalitarian government (in whatever guise it takes, including Fascism, Nazism or Socialism - and all of its variations) would be terrible to live under.

                      But I think that Philosopher makes a fair point - ultimately, the French people are sovereign over their own affairs and can choose whatever system of government they like. If they choose totalitarianism, then I think they will learn very quickly how wrong they were. Fortunately for the rest of Europe, I think France is too weak and pathetic to be a threat to anyone other than themselves.
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        #56
                        Just as an FYI, this is nothing compared to current Australian migration/citizenship laws (whether one agrees with them or not).

                        -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
                        -A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
                        -An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.
                        -A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.
                        -Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.
                        -Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.
                        -Banning dual nationality for non-Europeans, which would particularly affect citizens of former French colonies in Africa.
                        Last edited by Vangelovski; 12-08-2015, 07:00 AM.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • DraganOfStip
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 1253

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                          Naturally, we are not debating the historicity of the holocaust. Here is the problem. You wrote that Hitler had no policy of genocide when he came into power. You then repeated that claim:



                          So Hitler had no extermination policy when he took power. It is widely believed by historians that even when Hitler was in power he had no formal or written extermination policy.
                          I feel you're somehow missing the point here.Whether that is intentional or not is something I don't want to go into.
                          Both the Nazis and National Front didn't have "written extermination policy" on their way to power.Both Nazis and National Front used the contemporary conditions in their countries to come to power (unemployment,anti-immigration, anti-semitic/muslim sentiments,financial crisis,exploiting fear etc).And we all know how that ended 70 years ago,right?Should I remind you again who were the founders of the National Front?
                          Ostensibly, the final solution was an expulsion of Jews out of Germany and Europe.
                          Nope.Wrong again.The final solution was the systematical extermination of an entire ethnic community.You can look it up here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
                          P.S.:They didn't even manage to get the Jews out of Europe nor Germany anyway.Their ashes remained in the ovens of the concentration camps throughout Germany,Poland etc etc.
                          Why bring up for discussion this topic? It is a Macedonian forum. You have a serious phobia of “right-wing” politics. You dislike the political shift France has undertaken. The only logical deduction is that you do not respect the political mandate the French public have made. In fact, you have a serious problem with it.
                          And i have explained earlier why, as well as why every Macedonian should.Are you paying attention at all?
                          I never said you questioned the legality of the vote. I said it is not illegal for a country to protect its national identity.
                          Are you now saying that countries that are not ruled by far-right (or far-left if you like to call it that way,since you disagree with the entire world) parties are NOT protecting their national identity?
                          Have you actually read the Front National's platform? How is this bad news? Here is a snippet of the platform:
                          -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
                          -A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
                          -An end to the European Schengen Area, which gives free cross-border movement, and reinstatement of border checks.
                          -A toughening of the requirements to get French citizenship, which the FN says should not be automatic, while insisting that applicants demonstrate a strong commitment to France and its language.
                          -Zero tolerance of illegal immigration and an end to illegal immigrants’ rights to remain in France if they have been in the country for a given period.
                          -Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing.
                          -Banning dual nationality for non-Europeans, which would particularly affect citizens of former French colonies in Africa.

                          http://www.france24.com/en/20140528-...ront-policy-eu
                          And you seriously didn't find anything wrong with that snippet?
                          Other parts of their platform include:

                          -Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications.
                          -Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
                          -While rejecting an increasingly harmonious European Union, the FN would like to see the creation of a Pan-European Union of Sovereign States, to include Russia and Switzerland, but specifically not Turkey.

                          Nothing discriminatory or totalitarian there,right?
                          Like Vangelovski said,
                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          If they choose totalitarianism, then I think they will learn very quickly how wrong they were.
                          Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-08-2015, 08:05 AM.
                          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                          ― George Orwell

                          Comment

                          • Philosopher
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1003

                            #58
                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            I feel you're somehow missing the point here.Whether that is intentional or not is something I don't want to go into.
                            Both the Nazis and National Front didn't have "written extermination policy" on their way to power.Both Nazis and National Front used the contemporary conditions in their countries to come to power (unemployment,anti-immigration, anti-semitic/muslim sentiments,financial crisis,exploiting fear etc).
                            I understand all too well. You are, as I have been writing, equating states who adopt measures to protect their identity with genocidal regimes of the past. This is an absurdity even for you Dragan. The fact is that adoption of certain measures that you dislike is not a nexus to genocide.

                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            And we all know how that ended 70 years ago,right?Should I remind you again who were the founders of the National Front?
                            This one is amusing. Need I remind you who the architects of the European Union were? Nazis.

                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            Nope.Wrong again.The final solution was the systematical extermination of an entire ethnic community.You can look it up here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
                            P.S.:They didn't even manage to get the Jews out of Europe nor Germany anyway.Their ashes remained in the ovens of the concentration camps throughout Germany,Poland etc etc.
                            In all seriousness, how do you expect me to take you seriously when you quote wikipedia. There is no document, not even one, that Hitler signed or wrote or the Nazis in which the systematic extermination of the Jews was outlined.

                            If you have this evidence, I demand you present it. I'm asking for an original document, not the interpretations of modern day historians.

                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            And i have explained earlier why, as well as why every Macedonian should.Are you paying attention at all?
                            All you have explained is that sovereign states (such as France) should value the economic welfare of foreigners over protecting their own national identity. To you and to foreigners it makes sense. Make conditions agreeable so people from poor countries can make a better life. I hate to break it to you, but France is not obligated to do anything for Macedonians or people from other countries. France must act in the interest of France, not the economic profits of migrants and immigrants.

                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            Are you now saying that countries that are not ruled by far-right (or far-left if you like to call it that way,since you disagree with the entire world) parties are NOT protecting their national identity?
                            If France does not protect its language and culture, there will be nothing left of France. If you allow unbridled immigration which has no interest in adopting the French language, culture, and traditions, ethnic enclaves will be created, incubate, and grow. In time, whatever remnants of French culture exits will vanish.

                            What is your solution Dragan?

                            Are you for allowing unbridled immigrants in Macedonia? Do you believe these migrants should be left alone? Do you really think in time this will protect the national identity of a people or enervate it?

                            Originally posted by DraganofStip
                            -Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications.
                            -Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
                            -While rejecting an increasingly harmonious European Union, the FN would like to see the creation of a Pan-European Union of Sovereign States, to include Russia and Switzerland, but specifically not Turkey.
                            In all fairness, Dragan, virtually none of the above is about the current discussion, namely, national identity, or even how Macedonians will be effected, as these are police powers that would hurt all the people in France, not just immigrants.

                            Moreover, the fundamental problem is that you value economic welfare above all other considerations (in the context of our discussion). You are more interested in economics than preservation of national identity. There are many people who wish to exclude Turkey from Europe because Turkey is not really part of Europe. These people are less interested in the economic benefits of such a union than in the social, demographic, and political.
                            Last edited by Philosopher; 12-08-2015, 08:46 AM.

                            Comment

                            • DraganOfStip
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 1253

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                              I understand all too well. You are, as I have been writing, equating states who adopt measures to protect their identity with genocidal regimes of the past. This is an absurdity even for you Dragan. The fact is that adoption of certain measures that you dislike is not a nexus to genocide.
                              You don't seem like you understand.There's more to far-right ideology than just genocide."Measures to protect their identity"? Seriously?
                              This one is amusing. Need I remind you who the architects of the European Union were? Nazis.
                              After your conclusion that far-right is in fact far-left and that holocaust didn't happen,I won't even dare to ask you how you reached this fantastic conclusion.
                              Nevermind,I seriosly don't want to know.
                              In all seriousness, how do you expect me to take you seriously when you quote wikipedia. There is no document, not even one, that Hitler signed or wrote or the Nazis in which the systematic extermination of the Jews was outlined.
                              If you have this evidence, I demand you present it. I'm asking for an original document, not the interpretations of modern day historians.
                              You don't like Wikipedia? OK,fair enough.Try these links:
                              Is the “Final Solution” the same as the Holocaust? Did the Nazis always plan to murder the Jews? Learn the answer to these and other questions about the Nazi “Final Solution.”

                              Return to the Teacher’s Guide The “Final Solution” Synopsis The Nazis, under cover of the war, developed the technology, bureaucracy, and psychology of hate to efficiently murder millions of Jews. The details of the “Final Solution” were worked out at the Wannsee Conference. All Jews in Germany and the occupied countries were deported to sealed […]

                              The Final Solution Hitler was mindlessly focused on his goal: the elimination of all Jews from the planet.


                              And many many more.It's a wonder how much info is available online these days with a simple click.
                              All you have explained is that sovereign states (such as France) should value the economic welfare of foreigners over protecting their own national identity. To you and to foreigners it makes sense. Make conditions agreeable so people from poor countries can make a better life. I hate to break it to you, but France is not obligated to do anything for Macedonians or people from other countries. France must act in the interest of France, not the economic profits of migrants and immigrants.
                              If France does not protect its language and culture, there will be nothing left of France. If you allow unbridled immigration which has no interest in adopting the French language, culture, and traditions, ethnic enclaves will be created, incubate, and grow. In time, whatever remnants of French culture exits will vanish.
                              Who's trying to dismantle French culture and everything French?Are you even listening to yourself?
                              I'm sorry,I thought this was the 21st century where all people should be treated equally and all the stereotypes and wrongdoings from our brutal past are exactly that - past?
                              You talk like a real Nazi by the way,if one of us is a fascist it's definitely you.
                              What is your solution Dragan?

                              Are you for allowing unbridled immigrants in Macedonia? Do you believe these migrants should be left alone? Do you really think in time this will protect the national identity of a people or enervate it?
                              Macedonia and France are as different as fire and water,it's simply beyond comparison.Of course when you decide to move to a different country you follow their laws,ways and culture.You can't live in another country without learning the country's language and integrate in that society.This is not anything new.Le Pen and the National Front are only presenting foreigners as such in order to gain political points.Just like Hitler blamed the jews (among others) for the crisis of the 1920's in Germany to gain support.It's the oldest trick in the book.
                              In all fairness, Dragan, virtually none of the above is about the current discussion, namely, national identity, or even how Macedonians will be effected, as these are police powers that would hurt all the people in France, not just immigrants.
                              Moreover, the fundamental problem is that you value economic welfare above all other considerations (in the context of our discussion). You are more interested in economics than preservation of national identity. There are many people who wish to exclude Turkey from Europe because Turkey is not really part of Europe. These people are less interested in the economic benefits of such a union than in the social, demographic, and political.
                              Tell me how a "ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France" will not affect Macedonians with relatives/partners in France?Or how a "reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000" will not affect a Macedonian's chances of migrating to France?Or how "Priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing" will not affect Macedonians seeking jobs and places to stay in France?Or how "Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French)" will not affect Macedonians living or intend to live in France?
                              And please,enlighten me how "Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications" is not breaking essential rights of privacy of an individual,whether he/she be French or not?
                              Last edited by DraganOfStip; 12-08-2015, 12:47 PM.
                              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                              ― George Orwell

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                              • vicsinad
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 2337

                                #60
                                Greece is an example of a country that emphasized national identity at the expense of economics. Look how it turned out for Greece (regarding economy) and the Macedonian minority (regarding identity) there. I'm not saying that one should emphasize economics at the expense of national identity -- just pointing out that the opposite can have just as devastating effects on a society.

                                Speaking of Greeks: the Greek left-wing communists that Macedonians partnered with in the Greek Civil War were essentially fighting against fascists who have generally been called right-wingers, or conservatives. Now, maybe historians have it wrong and it really was just left-wingers against left-wingers and right-wingers hardly existed in Greece at that time. I don't know. I'm not overly educated on that issue, though I do know that the issue of fascist rule over a populace crosses into both the left and the right. Fascism shouldn't be looked at as left-right, but rather top down. It's on a different spectrum or scale. It's taken on both anti-liberal and anti-conservative forms. Mussolini said:

                                "Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center ... These words in any case do not have a fixed and unchanged meaning: they do have a variable subject to location, time and spirit. We don't give a damn about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words." Despite saying this, the "founders" of the modern 20th century fascist movement described their own views as more aligned with right-wing then left-wing ideology. But whatever. It doesn't matter -- fascism is something completely different than right-wing and left-wing ideology.

                                I do know that most Macedonians would be very skeptical and cautious about a Greek political party taking the same stances that this French political party is taking on certain matters.

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