Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

[Agamoi Thytai]

Some comments on your remarks:

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

One of the most significant distinctions between the Hellenic language and the BSB group is the development of Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants bh, dh and gh. In Hellenic, they develop as unvoiced consonants:

bh -> ph (φ)
dh -> th (θ)
gh -> kh (χ)

However, the Paleo-Balkan and Balto-Slavic languages take a different path of development, where the aspirated consonant largely becomes a voiced stop.

bh -> b (β)
dh -> d (δ)
gh -> g (γ)

All of these differences generate changes in pronounciation, as indicated in the below comparison of cognates between the two opposing linguistic groups along with the modern Macedonian and Hellenic languages.

It's true that some scholars consider ancient Macedonian was a distinct non-Greek language because in all Greek dialects the development of the Proto Indo-European aspirated consonants was usually this:
bh -> ph (φ)
dh -> th (θ)
gh -> kh (χ)

While in Macedonian the aspirated consonants turned to voiced stop.

bh -> b (β)
dh -> d (δ)
gh -> g (γ)

Hence we have in Macedonian Βίλιππος,Βερενίκη,Ξανδικός instead of "proper" Greek Φίλιππος,Φερενίκη,Ξανθικός.However most of these scholars have in mind only classic Attic while they ignore all the other ancient Greek dialcets,where the development of bh,dh,gh to b,d,g (as it happens in Macedonian) is not unknown.Some examples:
1)From PIE *kumbho/eh- (small vessel,bowl) we have anc.Greek "kumbe".Should it not be "kumphe"?
http://books.google.com/books?id=pH7emh7sv50C&pg=PA240
2)From PIE *bhergh- (height,fort) we have anc.Greek "purgos" while it should be "parkhos".
http://books.google.com/books?id=pH7...rtress&f=false
3)In Aristophanes' The Birds, the form κεβλήπυρις keblēpyris ('red-cap bird') is found, showing a Macedonian-style voiced stop in place of a standard Greek unvoiced aspirate,i.e. Macedonian κεβ(α)λή keb(a)lē versus Greek κεφαλή kephalē ('head').
http://books.google.com/books?id=cm-...page&q&f=false
4)Athena was called "Κεβλήγονος" (Keblegonos) i.e. "born from the head" because she was born from Zeus head.However in "proper" Greek it should be "Κεφαλήγονος" (Kephalegonos),because the "proper" Greek word for head is "κεφαλή" while "κεβ(α)λή" is Macedonian :
http://books.google.gr/books?id=3ScX...egonos&f=false
5) the shift from Β to Φ (ΡΗ) or from Δ to Θ was also common in Greek names.Thus we have the name Φαίδρος (Phaedrus) which literaly means "the shining one"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...e\qwn&la=greek
and this name derives from the verb "φαίθω" (phaitho) which means "to shine"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...e\qwn&la=greek
Also the names Βρασίδας and Φρασίδας were used interchangeably,like ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ and ΒΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ:
Φρασίδας from Thurii (Θούριοι),a Greek colony in Southern Italy:
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscrip...7%26region%3D2
And the known Spartan general Brasidas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasidas

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

[To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> βερε, bere (Anc. Maced.) -> bere (Mod. MK)
[To bear, gather] - bher (PIE) -> φερε, phere (Anc. Attic) -> fere (Mod. GK)

This verb is actually "φέρω" (fero) in Greek and its primary meaning is "to bear" and then "to bring",nothing close to "gather".What's the exact meaning of "bere" in Macedonian?Apparently it's a cognate of Greek fero.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

[To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Murderer] - δανῶν, danon (Anc. Maced.) -> [Drowned or Strangled] - udaven (Mod. MK)
[To leave] - dhenh (PIE) -> [Dead] - θανών, thanon (Anc. Attic) -> [Death] - thanatos (Mod. GK)

"Thanon" means "deceased" in anc.Greek,not death.The word for death is the same in both anc. and mod. Greek,"thanatos".

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

This would therefore mean that the ancient Macedonians pronounced the name of their country as Μακεδονία with a hardened voiced stop d, just like in Macedonian today, and unlike either ancient or modern Hellenic sound laws which produce the th and dh consonants.

The consonant Δ was pronounced in ancient Greek as D,unlike the modern Greek pronounciation of Δ as "th" in English "this".

[Agamoi Thytai]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Дени, here is a list of Thracian words from the previous sample sentence. The only words that appear to be shared by Greek are thér - 'beast' and ana - ‘at, towards’, the latter also used in Albanian në - 'at'. What are your thoughts?

• THR suku - ‘boy, juvenile’; PIE suhnús, suhyús - 'son'; LTH súnus - ‘son’, MKD sin, sinko - 'son, sonny'
• THR chalas - ‘mud’; PIE kuel* - 'muddy'; MKD kal, kalesh - 'mud, brown(ish)' *Can't replicate font.
• THR zvéri - ‘an animal, a beast’; PIE ghuēr* - 'wild animal'; LTV zvērs - 'beast'; MKD dzver - 'beast' *Can't replicate font.
• THR balios - 'white'; PIE bhel - 'white'; MKD bel - 'white'
• THR saltas - ‘golden’; PIE ghltom - 'gold'; PSL zalta - 'gold'; LTV zelts - 'gold'; MKD zlato, žolto - 'gold, yellow'
• THR zum - ‘dragon’; MKD zmei, zmija - 'dragon, snake'
• THR bruzas - ‘quick’; PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; MKD brz, brzo - 'quick'
• THR ana - ‘at, on’; PIE anō, nō - 'on, along'; MKD na - 'on, at'
• THR burd - ‘a ford’; MKD brod - 'ford, boat'
• THR kenthas - ‘child, descendant’; PIE ken - 'young'; LTV re-cens - ‘young, new’; PBSl kenda, kinda - 'child'; MKD chedo, chendo - 'child'

Here is a comparison of the same sentence, this time with Greek and Albanian translations respectively from google translate, so I am not sure if the grammar is 100%. However, it is clear (in this example at least) that they do not share the same affinity with Thracian that Macedonian and other Slavic languages do.

MKD - Sinko, vo kalta ima dzver, bel ili zlaten zmej, brzo na brodot chedo!
THR - Suku, vo chala ima zveri, bal ili salta zum, bruza ana burd kentha!
GRK - Gios, sti laspi iparhei ena thirio, ena leiko i hriso drako, grigora stin perasma paidi!
ALB - Bir, në baltë ka një kafshë, një dragua i bardhë ose të artë, shpejt me fëmijën ....!

I see there is apparently a similarity among some ancient Thracian and modern Macedonian (or of other Slavic languages) words.This is expected for IE languages as i also see some common cognates between Thracian and Greek.Perhaps the Thracian resembles more modern Macedonian than Greek because they are both satem languages and thus they share the same phonological changes while Greek is centum.However trying to reconcstruct a sentence in Thracian selecting certain words that resemble modern Macedonian is a game that i can also play with Greek:

English
Bright child it's hot in the room,instead to dig transversely should i break the water tower with the spear?

Greek
φαιδρό παιδί είναι θερμά στο δώμα αντί να σκάπτω εγκάρσια να θραύσω ανά τον υδάτινο πύργο με δόρυ?
faidro paidi einai therma sto doma,anti na skapto egarsia na thrauso ana ton ydatino pyrgo me dory?

Thracian
gaidrus paivis germa dama anti skapt skarsas traus na hydrenas berga taru

Thracian vocabulary:
gaidrus=bright,clear
paivis=child
germa=hot,worm
dama=settlement,place for settling
anti=against
skapt=to dig
skarsas=transverse
traus=to break
udrenas=water,aquatic
berga=hill,bank
taru=spear
http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_5.html

Greek cognates:
phaedros=bright
pais=child
therma=hot,warm
doma=room,home
anti=against,instead
skapto=to dig
engarsios=transverse
thrauo=to break
ana=on,at
hudrinos=aquatic
purgos=tower
doru=spear

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

It's true that some scholars consider ancient Macedonian was a distinct non-Greek language

I don't think this is even debatable. Ancient Greeks called Macedonians as "barbars" and the meaning of the word "barbar" was just "non-Greek speaker, stranger, foreigner" in Hellenistic era. So this means that Macedonian native tongue wasn't Greek but they were probably speaking Greek as a foreign language like Persians and Palestinian Aramaic speaking people because in that era, Greek was the lingua franca in whole mediterranean and middle-east. It was the language for commerce and literature `till Latin started to become the new lingua franca and then even Greeks themselves abandoned their own language in favor of Latin. IMHO, that was when ancient Greek culture died out with Latin influence and the beginning of christianity. Then for like ~1500 years, ancient Greek culture has been condemned, completely forgotten `till western Europeans decided to revive it according to their imagination and their own designation in post-renaissance era. You know, they re-shaped it and then completely isolated ancient Greek culture by converting it as "western only" according to their ethnocentric and egocentric post-renaissance philosophy. So, thats why and how your current country, Greece has been born in 19th century.


Btw If you consider that Greek speaking Macedonians(barbars) was Greek then you can also consider that Persians and all middle eastern people including Jews and Jesus was Greek since some of them was speaking Greek too. Ofc this would be a pathetic claim.

The word "barbar" gained other meanings like "non-christian, savage" in Roman era, much later than Alexander. I guess these new meanings to the word "barbar" added when Romans first encountered with German tribes during the great migration period of 4th century and especially when they faced with the Huns at early 5th century. You know, they even invented new word for expressing more extreme form of barbarism(according to them), "Vandalism". You know, Vandals was actually the name for a German tribe but since according to the Romans, they were doing destruction without a reason, so they called it "Vandalism".

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by Onur

I don't think this is even debatable. Ancient Greeks called Macedonians as "barbars" and the meaning of the word "barbar" was just "non-Greek speaker, stranger, foreigner" in Hellenistic era. So this means that Macedonian native tongue wasn't Greek but they were probably speaking Greek as a foreign language like Persians and Palestinian Aramaic speaking people because in that era, Greek was lingua franca in whole mediterranean and middle-east. It was the language for commerce and literature `till Latin started to become the new lingua franca and then even Greeks themselves abandoned their own language in favor of Latin. IMHO, that was when ancient Greek culture died out with Latin influence and christianity and for like ~1500 years ancient Greek culture has been condemned, completely forgotten `till western Europeans decided to revive it according to their imagination and their own designation in post-renaissance era.


Btw If you consider that Greek speaking Macedonians(barbars) was Greek then you can also consider that Persians and all middle eastern people including Jews and Jesus was Greek since some of them was speaking Greek too. Ofc this would be a pathetic claim.

The word "barbar" gained other meanings like "non-christian, savage" in post-Roman era, much later than Alexander.

BarBar= Macedonians = gabblers
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ghlight=Barbar

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by slovenec zrinski

Very interesting indeed SoM.

Thanks mate, I thought the similarities between Thracian and our languages may catch your attention as you've always had an interest for these topics. if you see anything that requires input from a Slovenian perspective, please share. It would have been great to also get the opinion of Slovak on this.

Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

However most of these scholars have in mind only classic Attic while they ignore all the other ancient Greek dialcets,where the development of bh,dh,gh to b,d,g (as it happens in Macedonian) is not unknown.

It may not be unknown in Greek dialects, but it is rare, and is most definetly the exception and not the norm. The fact that some of them exhibit such a consonant change may have resulted from interaction with 'barbarian' peoples, it has little to do with the differences between Greek dialects themselves, which are largely distinguished by vowel changes. However, in Macedonian and the other Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian, this sound change is the norm. That is the significant difference.

Apparently it's a cognate of Greek fero.

It is a cognate, the words are related, and the Macedonian variant is closer to anc. Macedonian than either modern or anc. Greek is.

"Thanon" means "deceased" in anc.Greek,not death.The word for death is the same in both anc. and mod. Greek,"thanatos".

Don't clutch at straws. This is how I obtained the etymology:

Macedonian δάνος dánοs ('death', from PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave'), compare Attic θάνος thános

The fact is, they are cognate words relating to 'death', and they both consist of the same sound change in both ancient and modern Macedonian.

The consonant Δ was pronounced in ancient Greek as D,unlike the modern Greek pronounciation of Δ as "th" in English "this".

In any case, Macedonian today pronounces it the same as anc. Macedonian, unlike mod. Greek. With regard to the consonant 'd', are you sure it was always a voiced stop in anc. Greek?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

I see there is apparently a similarity among some ancient Thracian and modern Macedonian (or of other Slavic languages) words.This is expected for IE languages as i also see some common cognates between Thracian and Greek.Perhaps the Thracian resembles more modern Macedonian than Greek because they are both satem languages and thus they share the same phonological changes while Greek is centum.However trying to reconcstruct a sentence in Thracian selecting certain words that resemble modern Macedonian is a game that i can also play with Greek

I was eventually going to come around to doing the same with both Greek and Albanian. In the sentence I wrote as an example, the overwhelming majority of words are shared only by Balto-Slavic, and not Greek or Albanian. The satem factor of course needs to be considered as a cause of commonality, but the similarities go beyond this distinction. Not all words in Paleo-Balkan or Balto-Slavic are 'satemised', however, several of the same words in both groups did undergo 'satemisation'. This is more than just a coincidence. There is also the manner in which certain words are constructed, for example, the word for 'snake' (zmija) in Macedonian appears to derive from 'earth' (zemja). If this is the case, and with the Thracian words for 'dragon' (zum) and 'earth' (seleme, or in Phrygian zemele) in consideration, one would have to assume that they derived the word in a similar way.

As for your example, Thracian, was not a Greek language, so it already displays a certain flaw. Some of the words may be loans from Greek into Thracian or the other way around, while others still are shared by Macedonian, making it a less unique example. See below in red for Macedonian cognates:

Thracian vocabulary:
gaidrus=bright,clear
paivis=child
germa=hot,worm zhar - 'grill'
dama=settlement,place for settling dom - 'home'
anti=against
skapt=to dig kopai - 'dig'
skarsas=transverse
traus=to break
udrenas=water,aquatic vodena - 'wet'
berga=hill,bank breg - 'bank, coast'
taru=spear drvo - 'wood'

I am in the process of drawing up a more elaborate list of Thracian words and their cognates in other languages, in a couple days it will be finished and then we can see exactly which words are shared and which words are specific in their relationship to either Balto-Slavic, Albanian or Greek.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is the basic way that stratums work:

Substratum
A substratum case is when the intrusive language prevails over the local language, for example, Latin prevailing over Celtic (substratum) in Gaul, Iberia, etc. Thus producing Romance language like French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.

Superstratum
A superstratum case is when the local language prevails over the intrusive language, for example, French (superstratum) withstanding and prevailing over Germanic in Gaul, where the invading language of the elites drops out in favour of the local tongue.

Adstratum
An adstratum case is when a language that is in contact with another language from a neighbouring population is confined to mutual borrowings of equal prestige rather than the replacement of one or another language. This can also apply to irregular occupiers. Scientific vocabulary from Greek and Latin used internationally are adstratum terms.


Going by the above, it would appear that Thracian is a substratum of today's Slavic languages. What makes this case more interesting, however, are the several examples of lexical correspondences and other commonalities between Thracian and Slavic languages. This would suggest that both the substratum and intrusive languages stem from a common ancestor (albeit having developed separately up until that point), which gives it a different dynamic when compared to the Celto-Latin scenario in Gaul (France). Baltic presents another interesting example, as it was able to hold out against the intrusive (Common Slavic) language, making Baltic a superstratum in this case.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This BSB 'theory' that I am proposing suggests the following sequence of events which led to the formation of today's Slavic languages. Of course, this theory requires further elaboration, so I am using it as a starting point and will develop it from here. In any case, this seems a more plausible explanation rather than the unexplained wholesale disappearance of Europe's largest linguistic group in antiquity, the Thracians. For the record, Slavic is Europe's largest linguistic group today.

Period of consolidation among BSB languages in Scythia
From the 3rd century AD, large swathes of Scythia fell under the influence of two elite Germanic groups that ruled on opposite sides of the Dniester river, who brought stability to the region, resulting in a period of general homogenisation in Scythia under a collective identity as Goths (or Getae). It was probably at this point, as a satem-speaking majority under the sway of an elite that spoke a centum tongue, that the BSB languages of the Scythian area underwent a process of solidification. This eventually led to linguistic unity, giving rise to a tongue that is now referred to as Common Slavic, which spread across the extent of the lands north of the Danube river.

Spread of Common Slavic to areas outside of Scythia
From around 370, the Alans and their Gothic neighbours were overwhelmed by the ruthless Hunnic expansion, and many of them fled west to either attack or seek refuge in Roman territory. Much of the local Scythian populace, however, remained, as is evidenced by the subsequent connection of Attila to speakers of Slavic languages. Those that crossed over the Danube river found a lack of willingness to assist on the part of the Romans, and eventually the Goths responded by plundering the Balkans between the years 376 to 382, setting a precedent as the first 'barbarians' to invade the Roman Empire and compel them to negotiate a treaty on imperial soil. Consequently, interaction between Common Slavic and other BSB languages in Scythia with the BSB languages in the Balkans significantly increased.

Homogenisation of BSB languages under Common Slavic
Power in much of the region north of the Danube river fell back under Germanic influence through the actions of Gepid and Lombard tribes, except in the areas further north and east where the local populace retained control. Common Slavic remained the prevalent form of communication for the majority of Scythia, and by the time the Avars had expelled the ruling Germanic tribes and established their empire in the same territory during the 6th century AD, reference to the people of Scythia as 'Slavic' had already been made by Roman writers. Common Slavic was in the process of becoming increasingly and outwardly familiar to both the Baltic and (even more) Balkan regions, which led to a direct and intense encounter between sibling branches of BSB; their languages and dialects that had endured markedly different experiences, even within the same group, were in many cases overwhelmed by the dominance of Common Slavic. Groups of people that spoke Common Slavic and other BSB languages from Scythia descended upon the Roman Empire independently or in common action with Iranian and Turkic groups, their intention being not only the capture of towns and cities, but to also secure a measure of local self-rule by establishing enclaves which were referred to as 'Sclaviniae'. Although there are cases where local Balkan populations were driven out of their homes during the turmoil, co-existence also took place in several cases. A number of Balkan and Baltic placenames that were retained exhibited slight changes indicating an advanced form of satemisation through the palatalisation of certain consonants, resulting from the interaction with Common Slavic. Although each BSB group was at different stages of development when this occured, the 'lingua franca' produced by the (perceived) 'uncivilised' north, while bringing with it several changes, was familiar enough to be adapted by most in the Balkans.

[makedonin]

Here is some old stuff from the old days that might be related or can be reused:

http://agema-makedonin.blogspot.com/...nguage-ii.html
http://agema-makedonin.blogspot.com/...thracians.html

[Agamoi Thytai]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

It may not be unknown in Greek dialects, but it is rare, and is most definetly the exception and not the norm. The fact that some of them exhibit such a consonant change may have resulted from interaction with 'barbarian' peoples, it has little to do with the differences between Greek dialects themselves, which are largely distinguished by vowel changes. However, in Macedonian and the other Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian, this sound change is the norm. That is the significant difference.

If you claim that some Greek dialects of Peloponnesus developed these consonant changes (even as exception and not as norm) because of interaction with non-Greek peoples,why can we not conclude the same for Macedonians?After all,they were the neighbours of Illyrians,Thracians and Paeonians,not the Peloponnesians or any other southern Greek tribe.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

It is a cognate, the words are related, and the Macedonian variant is closer to anc. Macedonian than either modern or anc. Greek is.

No,don't be confused with the suffix bere- in the name Berenice.Bere- means nothing in ancient Macedonian,just as phere- means nothing in Greek:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
Ferein (φέρειν) in anc. Greek and the expected berein (βέρειν) in anc.Macedonian are infinitives.
The proper verb in Present tense is in Greek phero (φέρω),thus in Macedonian it should be bero (βέρω) :
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...fe\rw&la=greek
More important is the meaning of the word which is exactly the same in anc.Macedonian,anc.Greek and mod.Greek while in modern Macedonian it is slightly different,as it happens in Serbo-Croatian,Bulgarian and Ukrainian too.This means,imho that mod.Macedonian bere derives not from ancient Macedonian bero but from some OCS cognate:
http://books.google.com/books?id=49x...%20ocs&f=false

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Don't clutch at straws. This is how I obtained the etymology:

The fact is, they are cognate words relating to 'death', and they both consist of the same sound change in both ancient and modern Macedonian.

However Greek thanon and thanatos are much closer to anc. Mac. danon and danos in both meaning and pronouncation,than mod.Mac. udaven

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

In any case, Macedonian today pronounces it the same as anc. Macedonian, unlike mod. Greek.

I don't think so,because you put the stress on Ο while in both anc. and mod. Greek the stress is always in Ι.It is Μακεδονία,not Μακεδόνια:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8i2...%CE%B1&f=false
Also you include a J between I and A (Македонија) which didn't exist in the ancient spelling.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

With regard to the consonant 'd', are you sure it was always a voiced stop in anc. Greek?

Of course:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nfo...=0CEoQ6AEwBzgK
Most linguists believe the pronounciation of Δ as "th" in English "this" changed in late Hellenistic time.