United Macedonia Diaspora

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Political boundaries and ancestry have shaped culture for far longer than you have been hugging trees.

So have monarchs, wars, and disease. Does that mean we should be necessarily for them?

And I have only hugged one tree in my life; I've chopped and cut more than you can number in those little make-believe scenarios you have of me in my element.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Victor,

If you are going to claim that certain views and actions are not anti-Macedonian, because the underlying motives may not be, then I call BS.

If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not.

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

[George S.]

"If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not." This is the biggest bs dribble to come out on MTO forum for a long time you are just making excusesfor your anti.It's the same old reason that people who are treacherous ,treasoness,traitorship use.The same old tired bullshit
of trying to legitimise their actions of which are anti macedonian.
This is what is wrong with macedonia"Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."You are trying to have it both ways trying to excuse yourself throwing the baby out with the bathwater.All this is just anti to the cause which is the macedonian cause.In this you can't have choices you are either anti macedonian or pro macedonian .You have chosen anti & are trying to excuse yourself by not agreeing with what you've done is bad for the cause.
You are making excuses on excuses.Stop bullshitting.We have a saying here good riddance to bad rubbish

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

So have monarchs, wars, and disease. Does that mean we should be necessarily for them?

And I have only hugged one tree in my life; I've chopped and cut more than you can number in those little make-believe scenarios you have of me in my element.

Yeah, volcanoes have also shaped culture. What exactly is your point?
I am not "for" political boundaries. I don't know where you got the "for" in any of this. However I do not underestimate their significance with respect to culture. I just think you are being argumentative for the sake of it.

You said you were less concerned with political boundaries, I merely pointed out how significant they are. I know in your world that you are right (as all Macedonians are about everything according to you) but you are wrong.

I hope the trees were sustainable.

I also hope you can tell us why you hate the FA but like the Badinter arrangements. Because you are really starting to sound anti-Macedonian.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

Can you think of any Macedonians that can be defined as "anti-Macedonian"?

Perhaps it might be useful to define "anti-Macedonian". I would (personally) define it as follows:

Acting against the concepts and principles as defined in the MTO Macedonian Cause. Accepting situations which demote Macedonian human rights in a manner where they are no longer of best practice and equal standing as compared to any other race.


You can take Badinter (and its inextricably linked FA) and stuff it up your arse.

I'd be happy to buy you a drink and tell the same to your face as well.

[vicsinad]

"I am not "for" political boundaries. I don't know where you got the "for" in any of this. However I do not underestimate their significance with respect to culture. I just think you are being argumentative for the sake of it."

My point was political national boundaries harms cultures more than helps cultures, it was not about their level of importance. Either you didn't read carefully, or it seems like you were being argumentative for the sake of it.

"I know in your world that you are right (as all Macedonians are about everything according to you) but you are wrong."

Another assumption and misinterpretation on your part.


"You can take Badinter (and its inextricably linked FA) and stuff it up your arse. "

According to you, everything you don't like about the OFA is inextricably linked to it. And because you don't like anything about the OFA, the whole cannot exist without any part. I bet you'd be hard pressed to find many parts of the OFA that aren't inextricably linked to it (unless, of course, you feel like being right...because you're always right in your world).

"I hope the trees were sustainable."

You mean you hope I chopped down the trees in a sustainable manner?

"Can you think of any Macedonians that can be defined as "anti-Macedonian"? "

Yes. And using your definition, especially this part, "Acting against the concepts and principles as defined in the MTO Macedonian Cause...", I can think of a couple MTO members, and some MTO forum members, who are anti-Macedonian. But maybe you should include that in your MTO Macedonian Cause statement, because it seems to be a central part of MTO's operations.

"I'd be happy to buy you a drink and tell the same to your face as well."

I'm sure you would.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

If I say or do something that harms my family, but my motives are not to harm my family, I am not "anti-my family" and my actions weren't "anti-my family." Anti-, first and foremost, means to be against something. If we have an ethno-cultural definition of Macedonian, then you're saying these people and their views are against the ethno-cultural group of Macedonians. Which is not true, and I don't think it's what you're really getting at, whether you agree or not.

Different people have different views on the direction of societies. In reality, these people simply have disagreements with you on the paths to take. They are not against Macedonians. It's common in America that one gets labeled anti-American for opposing initiatives to make English the official languages in certain states. How is it that someone's different vision of how American society should look be anti-American and the other not? Forget it not being fair, it's inaccurate and unproductive to "the free and democratic exchange of ideas."

I think we need a rule against stupid analogies. Too many of them on the MTO at the moment.

The views that I specifically call anti-Macedonian, are those that work against Macedonian freedom and that work against the human rights of Macedonians. I'm not referring to some vague notions, but specific and concrete policies, such as the Badinter Prinicple.

You've been avoiding the Badinter Principle like the plague lately. You said you support it but you do not support the other elements of the Framework Agreement. How is that possible? RtG is completely right when he says that it is inextricably linked to the FA. The Badinter Principle was designed SOLEY and SPECIFICALLY to protect the "other elements", or special privileges, given to the Albanians under the Framework Agreement. It serves no other purpose. How is it that you can support it and then claim not to support the special privileges it was designed to protect?

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

My point was political national boundaries harms cultures more than helps cultures, it was not about their level of importance. Either you didn't read carefully, or it seems like you were being argumentative for the sake of it.

Clearly you have amnesia:

Originally Posted by vicsinad

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry.

If you are "more" concerned about one issue over another. This implies levels of importance. Clearly I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. You appear to have some kind of short term memory problem.

Try again.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

You've been avoiding the Badinter Principle like the plague lately. You said you support it but you do not support the other elements of the Framework Agreement. How is that possible? RtG is completely right when he says that it is inextricably linked to the FA. The Badinter Principle was designed SOLEY and SPECIFICALLY to protect the "other elements", or special privileges, given to the Albanians under the Framework Agreement.

Whilst vicsinad might feel he is being vicsinadomised on this forum, he is yet to explain why the "Badinter Mechanism" is good when it is indeed nothing more than the method employed to ensure the Framework Agreement is fulfilled. I fear he can' explain this but pride is getting in his way. He sounds partially UMDonian to me.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

Clearly you have amnesia:

If you are "more" concerned about one issue over another. This implies levels of importance. Clearly I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. You appear to have some kind of short term memory problem.

Try again.

Clearly, you suffer from lack of comprehension.

Vicsinad said:

"The diversity of the dialects of the Macedonian people are fading away as village elders die and the literary Macedonian language takes roots in the younger generations. That is one way of many that local Macedonian cultures were harmed for the sake of a political, national body."


Try again.