Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > News and Politics

View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes 2 4.35%
No 44 95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-19-2010, 03:49 AM   #1581
Buktop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 934
Buktop is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Buktop, changing from one temporary name (current acronym) to another ('democratic') and then, another one, again? What are we, a banana state? Do you really think after changing names multiple times for international organisations, the final 'acceptable' compromise will be (Republic of) Macedonia?

I think you're smarter than that, but because the lines have been drawn you feel the need to defend Meto's viewpoint.
I did not say that I supported a triple name solution.

I said that if we had been able to join NATO and EU under the f..RoM name we could still reap the benefits of being on the inside of the two organizations while waiting for the appropriate portion of the UN to recognize us constitutionally and then call it to a vote in the UN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great
Macedonia appears to have embraced your suggested strategy and has PHAILED to move forward with dignity and more importantly SOVEREIGNTY.
Does anyone know the number of countries that recognize Macedonia bi-laterally? It is a significant portion of the countries on our list of recognition, and I would hate to call our name to a vote in the UN only to have these countries decide not to vote on a complete recognition, which is why I think we haven't gone to a vote yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski
20 YEARS is not a "temporary" period of time. Nor have any of the capitulations surrounding your type of outlook been "temporary", rather, they are been gradually cemented into what you have referred to as "reality"
Right... That is why the amount of countries that recognize Macedonia by it's constitutional name has reached a record level and is almost 2/3's of the UN members. You are right Vangelovski, why would we still be pushing for recognition if we planned on keeping the f..RoM reference. By the way, 20 years on the scale of nations is temporary.

Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?

It is easier to change things when working from the inside out, not the outside in.

We can only exercise our options based on the governments policy, it is not the diaspora that chooses the course of the government. Given the current government policy we have to find a realistic approach that will benefit Macedonia and Macedonians.
Buktop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 03:59 AM   #1582
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 15,628
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?
Let us say Bulgaria is in the same storm and cannot show any advantage for having a place of refuge in the EU. In fact, all it has in comparison to Macedonia is a bunch of new people it has to beg for umbrellas from. How much would you beg and grovel for that privilege? Would you be willing to give up your identity for it?
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."

Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 04:01 AM   #1583
Buktop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 934
Buktop is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by indigen View Post
This is what the Constitution says in the following articles:


Do you think the constitution was breached (and HIGH TREASON COMMITTED) in 2001 by those that disregarded their constitutional responsibilities and enacted the capitulationist "Ramkoven dogovor"?

What is the penalty for high treason in USA?

Was Boris Trajkovski guilty of high treason?

Why is Boris Trajkovski promoted as a hero by UMD? Is the UMD a RAMKOVIST (and Vrhovist) support group?
Let me ask you, did you vote in the 2004 referendum that sought to redraw the boundaries of the districts in Western Macedonia?
Why did only 25% of the citizens in RoM vote against redrawing the borders?
Where were the other 75% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia to vote against this?
Why didn't they do anything?
Why?
Because they don't give a shit!


My family is from Struga, one of the most affected territories of this action, and the Struzani fought so fiercely against this action that the Lavovi had to come and airlift that bastard Buckovski before we could get to him.

So if it is so illegal, Why didn't the citizens do anything about it? Let's try and arrest those responsible for treason (that would be 75% of the population of Macedonia)
Buktop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 04:33 AM   #1584
Buktop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 934
Buktop is on a distinguished road
Default

I have to say, I respect and understand your position Dzog, you are a very intelligent person, and it is great to hear an objective opinion on this issue. This thread has really struck me.

My only intention by joining the UMD debates was to address certain misconceptions concerning UMD position that I thought would prove detrimental to beneficial actions for Macedonians (one person already withdrew financial support from a Macedonian film festival because he thought UMD was organizing it). I must admit that I let the debate involve me far too much in petty squabbling and this drew my focus from the actual issues at hand.
Buktop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 04:43 AM   #1585
Buktop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 934
Buktop is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Let us say Bulgaria is in the same storm and cannot show any advantage for having a place of refuge in the EU. In fact, all it has in comparison to Macedonia is a bunch of new people it has to beg for umbrellas from. How much would you beg and grovel for that privilege? Would you be willing to give up your identity for it?
Are you seriously suggesting that the Bulgarian economy hasn't improved since it's acceptance to the EU? Do you even know the GDP statistics pre and post acceptance? Do you know the FDI statistics pre and post acceptance? Do you want me to post them for you? The reason for the perception that they haven't benefited has been their corrupt business policies and their incompetent management at the national bank. They have not properly controlled their interest rates and they have not properly leveraged their government spending.

I never advocated giving up my identity, I advocated using the governments "temporary" reference name (since we are still using it for everything else) to join the organization so that we could benefit while we waited to regain our sovereignty. I no longer advocate this as the criteria for acceptance have changed and it is no longer possible.

Last edited by Buktop; 01-19-2010 at 04:48 AM.
Buktop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 05:14 AM   #1586
Phoenix
Senior Member
 
Phoenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,665
Phoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
I did not say that I supported a triple name solution.

I said that if we had been able to join NATO and EU under the f..RoM name we could still reap the benefits of being on the inside of the two organizations while waiting for the appropriate portion of the UN to recognize us constitutionally and then call it to a vote in the UN.
Buktop, what planet have you been living on...the ONLY leverage the 'greeks' have against us is their veto power in the EU and NATO, their whole strategy is about keeping the 'balance of power' in their favour


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
Does anyone know the number of countries that recognize Macedonia bi-laterally? It is a significant portion of the countries on our list of recognition, and I would hate to call our name to a vote in the UN only to have these countries decide not to vote on a complete recognition, which is why I think we haven't gone to a vote yet.
Buktop we have to move away from this ignorant notion that other countries will 'vote' on whether we should have our own identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
Right... That is why the amount of countries that recognize Macedonia by it's constitutional name has reached a record level and is almost 2/3's of the UN members. You are right Vangelovski, why would we still be pushing for recognition if we planned on keeping the f..RoM reference. By the way, 20 years on the scale of nations is temporary.
Buktop stop making excuses for an appalling strategy adopted by the Republic of Macedonia and supported by the likes of UMD...the negotiations over our identity need to cease immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?
Buktop thats a stupid analogy because we don't have control over our destiny to enter your imaginary 'shelter', the door-bitch controls who enters and we're out in the cold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
It is easier to change things when working from the inside out, not the outside in.
Buktop, you're living in la la land...the 'greeks' aren't going to allow us equal billing anytime soon, certainly not while we're stuck in this silly game of 'compromising' our identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
We can only exercise our options based on the governments policy, it is not the diaspora that chooses the course of the government. Given the current government policy we have to find a realistic approach that will benefit Macedonia and Macedonians.
Buktop, stop the bullshit there...the Macedonian Government has no right to negotiate my identity, no man, not even Meto can do that...the problem is magnified when organizations like UMD who claim they represent the Macedonian diaspora undertake an appalling strategy that legitimizes this entire sham...
Phoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 05:35 AM   #1587
Phoenix
Senior Member
 
Phoenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,665
Phoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzog View Post
Vangelovski,



I get involved in these forums because I want to voice my own opinion on issues that affect the Macedonian diaspora and not to protect or attack the ideals of an organisation that purports to represent the Macedonian diaspora. I take a greater interest in real issues as opposed to the politics of the UMD and other organisations but decided to post this as the arguments between UMD and non/ex-UMD members are becoming ridiculous and embarassing...


...I am not calling for unity, but am calling for independent thinking without the strictures of organisations run by and opposed by individuals who obviously have their own agendas. I think Macedonians around the world would be much better off if they decided to think for themselves rather than to affiliate with such organisations and be told what to think...

...Admittedly, I am "new to the scene" and do not know anything about the UMD but, as I have reiterated, I hardly care. What I do care about is the bullshit that is emanating around it as it stops other Macedonians from taking an interest in Macedonian issues and participating in the Macedonian community.
Dzog, I think there's many people in this dispute that you've unfairly labelled "non/ex-UMD Members", that wrongly suggests that there's an organized anti-UMD agenda in progress.

Whatever organizational politics, posturing or even agenda's may be at play, the reality is that many individuals have raised issues and concerns specifically about UMD...its this level of 'independent thinking' thats been wrongly construed by the UMD camp that has lead to the current turmoil
Phoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 05:49 AM   #1588
Phoenix
Senior Member
 
Phoenix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,665
Phoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud ofPhoenix has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Support in Australia? You should stop believing your own garbage, support is definetly not what they have in Australia, and after Meto's public display of evasion here, he has not helped the UMD cause one bit.
Meto has been very unprofessional in this matter, its been an appalling lack of leadership...

Last edited by Phoenix; 01-19-2010 at 06:18 AM.
Phoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 06:10 AM   #1589
Prolet
Senior Member
 
Prolet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,241
Prolet is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
the negotiations over our identity need to cease immediately.
You're dead right about that, Gjorgje Ivanov thinks the same way.

Иванов: За идентитетот нема место за преговори
Горазд Чомовски



Македoнија е најмногу заинтересирана да се премости спорот со името во што е можно најскоро време но никако нема да дозволи во нејзино име друг да решава и притоа да го оспорува правото на самоопределување и самоидентификација.

Претседателот Иванов со сугестија до Грција што поскоро сфатите дека за идентитетските прашања нема место за преговарање толку побрзо ќе може да постигнеме компромис во спорот.

„Идентитетските одредници се прашања за кои едноставно не сакаме или уште попрецизно, немаме право да разговараме. Се надевам дека и нашиот сосед е свесен дека за идентитетските прашања никој на овој свет не разговара. Идентитетот е чувство со кое се раѓа човекот и таквото индивидуално чувство на граѓаните едноставно е невозможно да се одземе на маса со акт, со парче хартија. Доколку нашиот сосед реално, не декларативно, покаже подготвеност за решение, до компромис може да се дојде. Ние сме подготвени“, рече Ѓорѓе Иванов, претседател на Република Македонија.

Резимирајќи ја изминатата година доајенот на дипломатскиот кор, хрватскиот амбасадор ги поздрави успеси што Македонија ги направила во 2009 година, особено добро спроведените претседателски и локалните избори а честиташе и за добиената визна либерализација и препораката за почеток на преговори.

„Се надеваме дека вашата земја ќе продолжи решително со своите реформски напори и дека успешно ќе ги реши сите отворени прашања кои создаваат потешкотии на тој пат. Вашето општество треба и понатаму да го поддржува европскиот пат, со широк консензус и со поддршка на сите политички сили“, вели Иван Кујунџиќ, амбасадор на Хрватска во Македонија.

Она што можеше да му се прочита меѓу редови во обраќањето на Иванов е дека претседателот не е најсреќен од позицијата во која сега е Македонија.

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=118797
Prolet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 12:28 PM   #1590
Buktop
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 934
Buktop is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Dzog, I think there's many people in this dispute that you've unfairly labelled "non/ex-UMD Members", that wrongly suggests that there's an organized anti-UMD agenda in progress.

Whatever organizational politics, posturing or even agenda's may be at play, the reality is that many individuals have raised issues and concerns specifically about UMD...its this level of 'independent thinking' thats been wrongly construed by the UMD camp that has lead to the current turmoil
If it was not for the unsubstantiated claims of certain individuals (I am not saying you Phoenix) I would not even be involved in this debate. And I am not in any sort of "UMD camp". Everyone realizes that constructive criticism is necessary, but to try and blame a single side for the current situation is ridiculous and reveals a lot about the misconceptions of the discussion.
Buktop is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diaspora, macedonian, meto koloski, umd, united, vinozhito


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (0 members and 5 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump