United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    г.г. Стефан: "...послушник на штета на својот н

    По вчерашното изгласување на седмиот амандман во Собранието на Република Македонија

    МПЦ посрамотена и понижена од македонски пратеници!

    Ова што се изгласа за промена на чл.19 од Уставот на Република Македонија, е само потврда на националното и духовното отпадништво на овие, за жал, само со име македонски народни избраници


    Мирослав СПИРОВСКИ

    МАКЕДОНСКАТА православна црква, канонската наследничка и продолжителка на 2000 години древното православие во Македонија, на славната Светиклиментова Охридска архиепископија и на духовно-националниот идентитет на македонскиот народ и на Македонија, се чувствува посрамотена и понижена по вчерашното изгласување на седмиот нацрт-амандман од страна на пратеници-Македонци во македонскиот парламент, со што Црквата со апостолски корени ја изедначија со Исламската и со други верски заедници во државава. Вакви беа вчерашните реакции во сите епархии на МПЦ по изгласувањето на нацрт-амандманот со кој се бара промена на членот 19 од Уставот на Република Македонија. Официјалните претставници на епархиите ни рекоа дека Македонската православна црква во своите храмови јавно ќе ги објави имињата на сите пратеници-Македонци кои го дале својот глас за "срамниот нацрт-амандман", за да бидат на увид на народот.

    Поглаварот на Македонската православна црква Неговото блаженство архиепископот охридски и македонски господин господин Стефан ексклузивно за "Нова Македонија" изјави:

    - По сите случувања од средината на февруари до денес, по Танушевци, Тетовско Кале, Липково, Арачиново, по теророт, насилствата, киднапирањата, силувањата, по палежот и грабежот, по етничкото чистење, по жртвите и ранувањата и по сето однесување на најодговорните од државниот врв, вклучувајќи ги, еве, и пратениците, кои со промената на Преамбулата и со прифаќањето речиси на се што е предложено во Рамковниот договор, а се однесува на Уставот на Република Македонија, на македонската држава и народ - вреди ли да се коментира?

    Ако чувствувам жал и болка по Лешочкиот манастир и по оштетените фрески во Матејче и другите светињи, продолжи Неговото блаженство, за кои се знае кој ги направи тие невидени злодела, ова што се изгласа за промена на чл.19 од Уставот на Република Македонија, е само потврда на националната и духовната апостазија (отпадништво-з.н.) на овие, за жал, само со име македонски народни избраници, кои во континуитет, со мал исклучок, гласаат како одродени и невидени богоборци. До таа мера да се биде без достоинство, без национална и духовна свест, да се биде таков послушник на штета на својот народ, земја и Црква, е неспоредливо со сите најлоши и најтрагични примери од нашата историја. Сигурно некој нов Прличев ќе ги овековечи и нив како стреите на Бујар Лигдо и Станче Беј и другите, и овие соучесници во рушењето на македонските национални и духовни вредности, рече архиепископот г.г. Стефан.


    [....]



    --------

    Clearly, it can easily be deduced that the FA was/is more destructive to the Macedonian national cause (existence) than some care (or are able) to admit.
    Last edited by indigen; 01-19-2010, 12:31 AM.

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Agreed. So once you have determined and agreed to an organisation's ambitions, you can put these ambitions ahead of personal agendas and aspirations.

      I asked the UMD in an email if it would embrace the Macedonian Cause as defined in this forum. The UMD replied to my email in the following fashion:



      The text above looks great. And would sit quite well if there was no inconsistency coming from the leader.

      It wants to advance all Macedonian people's causes and addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world. This is great stuff!

      But unfortunately there is doubt about the UMD's ambitions.
      We think the Macedonian Cause is a great way to bind organisations into an acceptable way of thinking.
      It seems that UMD couldn't even give a simple YES or NO or provide an explanation of points it did not agree with and why.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        Originally posted by Dzog
        Edit: I just watched the interview and I think Mr Koloski categorically rejects any further compromise. Although he does mention a different identifier ("Democratic") as being more acceptable than FYROM or what has been offered for international use only, I don't think this qualifies as advocacy for a name change.
        Ok, so in all your claims of objectivity you are still taking a subjective stance. Were it anybody else in the world making this statement, where you don't have an interest in the matter, you would see his words for what they are.

        I am becoming rather tired of having to re-post the same analysis on this dispicable interview of Meto's, and I have had it with certain people here who read only what they want to see. So, I will do it again for the last time:


        (1) We feel that perhaps a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia
        Here he advocates for a name other than (Republic of) Macedonia - Anybody that doesn't consider this an advocacy for a name change is lying to themselves or has an agenda.
        (2) I think that a name should be found and our organization believes that a name should be found that is acceptable to both parties for bilateral reference
        Here he clearly advocates for a bilateral name. This is 2 names other than the (Republic of) Macedonia that he has advocated for, for 2 different uses.
        (3) I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable to the Macedonian people nor the Macedonian nation
        Here he is basically saying, so long as it is not for the UN, EU, NATO or Greece, the (Republic of) Macedonia is sufficient.

        Don't kid yourselves for Christ's sake, any person reading or listening to his interview will notice that Meto is basically proposing 3 names. Either that, or Meto himself doesn't know what he is rambling on about in the interview.

        Originally posted by TrueMacedonian
        political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable

        Sorry brother, that is a weak point for an argument in this case. If we were to apply the same principle to the following sentence from Meto: I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable - One could then point out that Meto isn't even 100% sure if a compromise is unacceptable, he only thinks it is unacceptable. See what I mean?

        Some people think Meto is a good bloke, some people think he isn't so good, others think he is an incapable fool. Put all personal sentiments about the guy aside, and see this interview for what it is. I don't care what his press releases say now, at the time of the ZMR interview, Meto advocates and supports a name change. His reasons are irrelevant (unless he chooses to explain them and acknowledge the error, which he hasn't), what stands out above all is the fact that he suggested a name other than the (Republic of) Macedonia for international and bilateral use.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          Originally posted by TajnataKniga View Post
          again more threads about UMD.
          How about you make one about the psuedo-identity that you have adopted for yourself, and argue the case for Democratic Macedonians?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Dzog
            Junior Member
            • Sep 2009
            • 37

            Soldier of Macedon,

            For me, to advocate a name change he would have to say and emphasise that Macedonia must change its constitutional name. He barely does this. In this interview he says that Macedonians should have the right to the Constitutional name they chose upon independence, but that his organisation would accept a politically modified name for bilateral relations with Greece and entry into international organisations. If you feel that this is advocating a wholesale name change then so be it, but don't for a second think that your interpretation is objective, particularly when you clearly have some beef with the UMD.

            Now, please explain how I am taking a subjective stance? You don't know who I am nor what I believe in to able to make this kind of judgment. However, if you must, I am of the opinion that there should be absolutely no change to the Constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia and that entry to any international organisations should be on the basis of this name and this name only. As for bilateral relations Greece, I could not care less what they call us as long as the matter is settled. I am not a member of any Macedonian organisations and not affiliated with any group or political party. I may exaggerate certain personal aspects on internet forums, but I have gladly introduced myself to anyone who has done the same. You can cast your stones now.
            Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

            Comment

            • Buktop
              Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 934

              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Buktop, changing from one temporary name (current acronym) to another ('democratic') and then, another one, again? What are we, a banana state? Do you really think after changing names multiple times for international organisations, the final 'acceptable' compromise will be (Republic of) Macedonia?

              I think you're smarter than that, but because the lines have been drawn you feel the need to defend Meto's viewpoint.
              I did not say that I supported a triple name solution.

              I said that if we had been able to join NATO and EU under the f..RoM name we could still reap the benefits of being on the inside of the two organizations while waiting for the appropriate portion of the UN to recognize us constitutionally and then call it to a vote in the UN.

              Originally posted by Risto the Great
              Macedonia appears to have embraced your suggested strategy and has PHAILED to move forward with dignity and more importantly SOVEREIGNTY.
              Does anyone know the number of countries that recognize Macedonia bi-laterally? It is a significant portion of the countries on our list of recognition, and I would hate to call our name to a vote in the UN only to have these countries decide not to vote on a complete recognition, which is why I think we haven't gone to a vote yet.

              Originally posted by Vangelovski
              20 YEARS is not a "temporary" period of time. Nor have any of the capitulations surrounding your type of outlook been "temporary", rather, they are been gradually cemented into what you have referred to as "reality"
              Right... That is why the amount of countries that recognize Macedonia by it's constitutional name has reached a record level and is almost 2/3's of the UN members. You are right Vangelovski, why would we still be pushing for recognition if we planned on keeping the f..RoM reference. By the way, 20 years on the scale of nations is temporary.

              Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?

              It is easier to change things when working from the inside out, not the outside in.

              We can only exercise our options based on the governments policy, it is not the diaspora that chooses the course of the government. Given the current government policy we have to find a realistic approach that will benefit Macedonia and Macedonians.
              "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

              Never once say you walk upon your final way
              though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
              Our long awaited hour will draw near
              and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?
                Let us say Bulgaria is in the same storm and cannot show any advantage for having a place of refuge in the EU. In fact, all it has in comparison to Macedonia is a bunch of new people it has to beg for umbrellas from. How much would you beg and grovel for that privilege? Would you be willing to give up your identity for it?
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Buktop
                  Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 934

                  Originally posted by indigen View Post
                  This is what the Constitution says in the following articles:


                  Do you think the constitution was breached (and HIGH TREASON COMMITTED) in 2001 by those that disregarded their constitutional responsibilities and enacted the capitulationist "Ramkoven dogovor"?

                  What is the penalty for high treason in USA?

                  Was Boris Trajkovski guilty of high treason?

                  Why is Boris Trajkovski promoted as a hero by UMD? Is the UMD a RAMKOVIST (and Vrhovist) support group?
                  Let me ask you, did you vote in the 2004 referendum that sought to redraw the boundaries of the districts in Western Macedonia?
                  Why did only 25% of the citizens in RoM vote against redrawing the borders?
                  Where were the other 75% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia to vote against this?
                  Why didn't they do anything?
                  Why?
                  Because they don't give a shit!


                  My family is from Struga, one of the most affected territories of this action, and the Struzani fought so fiercely against this action that the Lavovi had to come and airlift that bastard Buckovski before we could get to him.

                  So if it is so illegal, Why didn't the citizens do anything about it? Let's try and arrest those responsible for treason (that would be 75% of the population of Macedonia)
                  "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                  Never once say you walk upon your final way
                  though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                  Our long awaited hour will draw near
                  and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                  Comment

                  • Buktop
                    Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 934

                    I have to say, I respect and understand your position Dzog, you are a very intelligent person, and it is great to hear an objective opinion on this issue. This thread has really struck me.

                    My only intention by joining the UMD debates was to address certain misconceptions concerning UMD position that I thought would prove detrimental to beneficial actions for Macedonians (one person already withdrew financial support from a Macedonian film festival because he thought UMD was organizing it). I must admit that I let the debate involve me far too much in petty squabbling and this drew my focus from the actual issues at hand.
                    "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                    Never once say you walk upon your final way
                    though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                    Our long awaited hour will draw near
                    and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                    Comment

                    • Buktop
                      Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 934

                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      Let us say Bulgaria is in the same storm and cannot show any advantage for having a place of refuge in the EU. In fact, all it has in comparison to Macedonia is a bunch of new people it has to beg for umbrellas from. How much would you beg and grovel for that privilege? Would you be willing to give up your identity for it?
                      Are you seriously suggesting that the Bulgarian economy hasn't improved since it's acceptance to the EU? Do you even know the GDP statistics pre and post acceptance? Do you know the FDI statistics pre and post acceptance? Do you want me to post them for you? The reason for the perception that they haven't benefited has been their corrupt business policies and their incompetent management at the national bank. They have not properly controlled their interest rates and they have not properly leveraged their government spending.

                      I never advocated giving up my identity, I advocated using the governments "temporary" reference name (since we are still using it for everything else) to join the organization so that we could benefit while we waited to regain our sovereignty. I no longer advocate this as the criteria for acceptance have changed and it is no longer possible.
                      Last edited by Buktop; 01-19-2010, 04:48 AM.
                      "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                      Never once say you walk upon your final way
                      though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                      Our long awaited hour will draw near
                      and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                      Comment

                      • Phoenix
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 4671

                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        I did not say that I supported a triple name solution.

                        I said that if we had been able to join NATO and EU under the f..RoM name we could still reap the benefits of being on the inside of the two organizations while waiting for the appropriate portion of the UN to recognize us constitutionally and then call it to a vote in the UN.
                        Buktop, what planet have you been living on...the ONLY leverage the 'greeks' have against us is their veto power in the EU and NATO, their whole strategy is about keeping the 'balance of power' in their favour


                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        Does anyone know the number of countries that recognize Macedonia bi-laterally? It is a significant portion of the countries on our list of recognition, and I would hate to call our name to a vote in the UN only to have these countries decide not to vote on a complete recognition, which is why I think we haven't gone to a vote yet.
                        Buktop we have to move away from this ignorant notion that other countries will 'vote' on whether we should have our own identity.

                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        Right... That is why the amount of countries that recognize Macedonia by it's constitutional name has reached a record level and is almost 2/3's of the UN members. You are right Vangelovski, why would we still be pushing for recognition if we planned on keeping the f..RoM reference. By the way, 20 years on the scale of nations is temporary.
                        Buktop stop making excuses for an appalling strategy adopted by the Republic of Macedonia and supported by the likes of UMD...the negotiations over our identity need to cease immediately.

                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        Let us say now that Macedonia is caught in a storm, and that we don't have a good coat on, and let us say that EU and NATO are shelters where we can take refuge until we find a good coat. Would you advocate that we wait out in the storm alone with no coat or would you take temporary shelter?
                        Buktop thats a stupid analogy because we don't have control over our destiny to enter your imaginary 'shelter', the door-bitch controls who enters and we're out in the cold...

                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        It is easier to change things when working from the inside out, not the outside in.
                        Buktop, you're living in la la land...the 'greeks' aren't going to allow us equal billing anytime soon, certainly not while we're stuck in this silly game of 'compromising' our identity

                        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                        We can only exercise our options based on the governments policy, it is not the diaspora that chooses the course of the government. Given the current government policy we have to find a realistic approach that will benefit Macedonia and Macedonians.
                        Buktop, stop the bullshit there...the Macedonian Government has no right to negotiate my identity, no man, not even Meto can do that...the problem is magnified when organizations like UMD who claim they represent the Macedonian diaspora undertake an appalling strategy that legitimizes this entire sham...

                        Comment

                        • Phoenix
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 4671

                          Originally posted by Dzog View Post
                          Vangelovski,



                          I get involved in these forums because I want to voice my own opinion on issues that affect the Macedonian diaspora and not to protect or attack the ideals of an organisation that purports to represent the Macedonian diaspora. I take a greater interest in real issues as opposed to the politics of the UMD and other organisations but decided to post this as the arguments between UMD and non/ex-UMD members are becoming ridiculous and embarassing...


                          ...I am not calling for unity, but am calling for independent thinking without the strictures of organisations run by and opposed by individuals who obviously have their own agendas. I think Macedonians around the world would be much better off if they decided to think for themselves rather than to affiliate with such organisations and be told what to think...

                          ...Admittedly, I am "new to the scene" and do not know anything about the UMD but, as I have reiterated, I hardly care. What I do care about is the bullshit that is emanating around it as it stops other Macedonians from taking an interest in Macedonian issues and participating in the Macedonian community.
                          Dzog, I think there's many people in this dispute that you've unfairly labelled "non/ex-UMD Members", that wrongly suggests that there's an organized anti-UMD agenda in progress.

                          Whatever organizational politics, posturing or even agenda's may be at play, the reality is that many individuals have raised issues and concerns specifically about UMD...its this level of 'independent thinking' thats been wrongly construed by the UMD camp that has lead to the current turmoil

                          Comment

                          • Phoenix
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 4671

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Support in Australia? You should stop believing your own garbage, support is definetly not what they have in Australia, and after Meto's public display of evasion here, he has not helped the UMD cause one bit.
                            Meto has been very unprofessional in this matter, its been an appalling lack of leadership...
                            Last edited by Phoenix; 01-19-2010, 06:18 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Prolet
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 5241

                              the negotiations over our identity need to cease immediately.
                              You're dead right about that, Gjorgje Ivanov thinks the same way.

                              Иванов: За идентитетот нема место за преговори
                              Горазд Чомовски



                              Македoнија е најмногу заинтересирана да се премости спорот со името во што е можно најскоро време но никако нема да дозволи во нејзино име друг да решава и притоа да го оспорува правото на самоопределување и самоидентификација.

                              Претседателот Иванов со сугестија до Грција што поскоро сфатите дека за идентитетските прашања нема место за преговарање толку побрзо ќе може да постигнеме компромис во спорот.

                              „Идентитетските одредници се прашања за кои едноставно не сакаме или уште попрецизно, немаме право да разговараме. Се надевам дека и нашиот сосед е свесен дека за идентитетските прашања никој на овој свет не разговара. Идентитетот е чувство со кое се раѓа човекот и таквото индивидуално чувство на граѓаните едноставно е невозможно да се одземе на маса со акт, со парче хартија. Доколку нашиот сосед реално, не декларативно, покаже подготвеност за решение, до компромис може да се дојде. Ние сме подготвени“, рече Ѓорѓе Иванов, претседател на Република Македонија.

                              Резимирајќи ја изминатата година доајенот на дипломатскиот кор, хрватскиот амбасадор ги поздрави успеси што Македонија ги направила во 2009 година, особено добро спроведените претседателски и локалните избори а честиташе и за добиената визна либерализација и препораката за почеток на преговори.

                              „Се надеваме дека вашата земја ќе продолжи решително со своите реформски напори и дека успешно ќе ги реши сите отворени прашања кои создаваат потешкотии на тој пат. Вашето општество треба и понатаму да го поддржува европскиот пат, со широк консензус и со поддршка на сите политички сили“, вели Иван Кујунџиќ, амбасадор на Хрватска во Македонија.

                              Она што можеше да му се прочита меѓу редови во обраќањето на Иванов е дека претседателот не е најсреќен од позицијата во која сега е Македонија.

                              А1 Македонија е член на Групацијата А1 Телеком Австрија, водечки провајдер за комуникациски и дигитални решенија во Централна и Источна Европа.
                              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                              Comment

                              • Buktop
                                Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 934

                                Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                                Dzog, I think there's many people in this dispute that you've unfairly labelled "non/ex-UMD Members", that wrongly suggests that there's an organized anti-UMD agenda in progress.

                                Whatever organizational politics, posturing or even agenda's may be at play, the reality is that many individuals have raised issues and concerns specifically about UMD...its this level of 'independent thinking' thats been wrongly construed by the UMD camp that has lead to the current turmoil
                                If it was not for the unsubstantiated claims of certain individuals (I am not saying you Phoenix) I would not even be involved in this debate. And I am not in any sort of "UMD camp". Everyone realizes that constructive criticism is necessary, but to try and blame a single side for the current situation is ridiculous and reveals a lot about the misconceptions of the discussion.
                                "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                                Never once say you walk upon your final way
                                though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                                Our long awaited hour will draw near
                                and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                                Comment

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