Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
    I hope you dont mind I respond to your dialogue you have with Dimitar.
    I don't mind, just cite a username when you quote the words of others.
    Since we can say that language may not be the answer to all, how can we say that they werent indeed Greeks that spoke Macedonian ?
    Why is that not a possiblity ?
    Language is a key indicator of the Macedonian identity; from the second half of the 18th century Greek was the only formal language in the churches and schools belonging to the Rum millet of Ottoman Europe. In the 19th century, the Serbian and Bulgarian languages gained an official status with the liberation of their churches and states, whereas the Macedonian language would need to wait until half way through the 20th century to obtain the same. If there are some Greeks that learned Macedonian, it was through necessity (probably due to trade) or interaction with Macedonians as neighbours, because the Macedonian language was not imposed in Macedonia like Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian were.
    How can we also disregard the Bulgarians in the region ? No doubt the Macedonians as well. Its all relative in the area we live in.
    They've always been an insignificant number. Do you know of any documented settlements in Macedonia by the Turkic Bulgars or the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians from Moesia? I don't, perhaps you can help me out.
    It may have been a Macedonian state, but from what I know Tsar Samuil identified himself as a Bulgarian. Pls correct me if im wrong.
    Can you refer me to a document where Samuel calls himself 'Bulgarian', aside from the so-called Bitola rock 'inscription', which is more than likely another fake like the one found in Voden? As far as I am aware, there is nothing on St Achilles island in Prespa which has a contemporary inscription making reference to him as a 'Bulgarian', or am I wrong?
    How is Macedonia historically Macedonian ? There has been so many movements in the Balkans its hard to tell what was historically what and when. Anybody can pick a certain timeline in history and use it to reinforce their position.
    I don't have to pick a certain timeline in history because the regions we are talking about have had a more or less continuous Macedonian heritage and identity since antiquity, despite the population movements, invasions, etc.
    Speaking of Vlachs, I hear them mentioned so many times but does anybody know that is a blanket term ? Many people learned Latin during the Roman Empire. Vlachs have been assimilated to each respective country they live in. They have as much right as the next Greek or Macedonian to declare that region as theirs. Probably even more so.
    Not all Vlachs. I am prepared to accept that a not insignificant amount of them are in actual fact descended from Roman (and possibly later Latin or Italic) colonists, but I am not prepared to put a figure on it.
    So according to this, there was never any Bulgarians ? How does one go about to differentiate ?
    In Macedonia, very few.
    I agree with you that many of their subjects werent Bulgarian. But how do we know who thought of themselves what at the time ?
    It's difficult to know how common people identified, some sources give an indication; one thing we can be sure of is the insignificance of both the Turkic Bulgar and Slavic Bulgarian populations in Macedonia.
    I dont think nationalities during that era held any weight at all. We are trying to use today's method of thinking to a completely different era with different identifying factors.
    Your interpretation is incorrect. I am not trying to conjure an unbroken line of consistency in Macedonian history, my intention is instead to provide a comprehensive and collective picture of that history, and demonstrate how generations from each century developed one after the other - they are, afterall, the ancestors of today's Macedonians.
    Bulgarians today are just as indeginous as the modern day Greek and Macedonian. Bulgarians are more Thracian and Slav than Bulgar.
    I do believe I said something similar already, although I don't completely agree with your assertion about the Greeks being indigenous to the Balkans because a significant part of the population stems from what is now Turkey. I am sure that most of the rest have a heritage in the region that predates the 19th century.
    Bulgar could also have been Iranic and not Turkic.
    They were a Turkic people who picked up Iranic admixtures as they travelled west towards Europe.
    Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe therefore part of our modern ethnos.
    That's a rather naive, ignorant and delusional comment.
    The Slavs reached Peloponnese Greece and are a component of the modern Greek ethnos.
    Why don't they qualify as a 'Greek' tribe?
    I believe they have assimilated into us and Macedonians of today assimilated to them via language.
    So that would technically mean you also think that today's Macedonians are Greeks? Now you're earlier comment is starting to make sense. No, the Macedonians aren't Greeks who adopted Slavic, they are Macedonians, and their original language is a sub-stratum in today's Macedonian language.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Voltron
      Banned
      • Jan 2011
      • 1362

      SOM

      Language is a key indicator of the Macedonian identity; from the second half of the 18th century Greek was the only formal language in the churches and schools belonging to the Rum millet of Ottoman Europe. In the 19th century, the Serbian and Bulgarian languages gained an official status with the liberation of their churches and states, whereas the Macedonian language would need to wait until half way through the 20th century to obtain the same. If there are some Greeks that learned Macedonian, it was through necessity (probably due to trade) or interaction with Macedonians as neighbours, because the Macedonian language was not imposed in Macedonia like Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian were.
      I dont believe that Greek language was forced. I understand the influence that Greek language had in the area and will give the benefit of the doubt.

      They've always been an insignificant number. Do you know of any documented settlements in Macedonia by the Turkic Bulgars or the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians from Moesia? I don't, perhaps you can help me out.
      By the time the Bulgarians reached Europe their original features were most likely lost. Again we are not sure if they were Turkic or Iranic. There is still some debate about that. I believe the Bulgarians reached as far as Albania. I dont have any numbers either. Pls note I understand that the use of the term Bulgarian was a broad term. So please dont take my reply wrong.

      Can you refer me to a document where Samuel calls himself 'Bulgarian', aside from the so-called Bitola rock 'inscription', which is more than likely another fake like the one found in Voden? As far as I am aware, there is nothing on St Achilles island in Prespa which has a contemporary inscription making reference to him as a 'Bulgarian', or am I wrong?
      Ive been there myself, St Achilles of Prespa. Absolutly stunning area. That being said, it is pretty much accepted that he was a Bulgarian. Im also aware of the rock inscription controversy so I wont use that as a reference. There is a contemporary plaque on display on St. Achilles island, I will see if I can upload it sometime. The really wierd part of that plaque is that someone scratched out the reference to Tsar Samuil the " Bulgarian " king.

      I don't have to pick a certain timeline in history because the regions we are talking about have had a more or less continuous Macedonian heritage and identity since antiquity, despite the population movements, invasions, etc.
      Identity in the region was not the same as we know it today. That is pretty hard to substantiate. I dont agree with that assessment.

      Not all Vlachs. I am prepared to accept that a not insignificant amount of them are in actual fact descended from Roman (and possibly later Latin or Italic) colonists, but I am not prepared to put a figure on it.
      Not only Latin or Italic colonists but Greek as well. There is no reason to not believe that Greeks assimilated to the Latin language as Macedonians today assimlated to Slavic. Sarakatsani Vlachs are a good example.

      It's difficult to know how common people identified, some sources give an indication; one thing we can be sure of is the insignificance of both the Turkic Bulgar and Slavic Bulgarian populations in Macedonia.
      I agree it is difficult to determine how common people identified themselves.

      Your interpretation is incorrect. I am not trying to conjure an unbroken line of consistency in Macedonian history, my intention is instead to provide a comprehensive and collective picture of that history, and demonstrate how generations from each century developed one after the other - they are, afterall, the ancestors of today's Macedonians.
      And Greeks.

      I do believe I said something similar already, although I don't completely agree with your assertion about the Greeks being indigenous to the Balkans because a significant part of the population stems from what is now Turkey. I am sure that most of the rest have a heritage in the region that predates the 19th century.
      Vlachs and Arvanites to me are a valid Greek component and thus indeginous to the area.

      They were a Turkic people who picked up Iranic admixtures as they travelled west towards Europe.
      I happen to think the opposite. They were Iranic that picked up Turkic loanwords or habits.

      Why don't they qualify as a 'Greek' tribe?
      Because they are documented. Mellingoi and Ezerites.

      So that would technically mean you also think that today's Macedonians are Greeks? Now you're earlier comment is starting to make sense. No, the Macedonians aren't Greeks who adopted Slavic, they are Macedonians, and their original language is a sub-stratum in today's Macedonian language.
      There is no reason to rule out the possiblity todays Macedonians having Greek lineage at one point. I also dont agree with the Macedonian language being related to Ancient Macedonian dialect of Greek. Hope you dont take it personal. That being said, I am in no way saying Macedonians today dont exist or dont deserve respect. I consider them my equals and part of the greater balkan neighborhood.

      Comment

      • Onur
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2010
        • 2389

        Originally posted by Voltron View Post
        I dont believe that Greek language was forced. I understand the influence that Greek language had in the area and will give the benefit of the doubt.
        You better delve in to the history section of the forum when you have some time. These actions of Greek patriarchy and their assimilation attempts was the primary reason of the foundation of Bulgarian church.

        Greek language started to be imposed on all christians(slavic, latin and turkish speakers) from Edirne to Salonika, Albania and up to the Sofia by Istanbul patriarchy. Also that was when Turkish christians in Anatolia started to get Greek education for the first time. That was the case especially after 1850s and they did that by abusing their religious authority status given to them by the Turks.

        Then in 1890s, Greek bandit groups(mostly Arvanites) started to terrorize Vlachs and Macedonians and they killed non-Greek speaking priests, burned Vlach and Macedonian bibles and even churches itself and forced people to pray in Greek. Vlachs too cuz Ottoman authorities recognized them in Aegean Macedonia as a distinct minority group in late 19th century. Greek church and government in Morea gone mad because of this and they already abandoned their minority rights when they invaded Aegean Macedonia. As we know, all the grandchildren of these people, thinks themselves as the descendants of ancient Greeks now!

        This terror continued `till 1912 and all these events are very well documented with personal testimonies in Ottoman era archives, reports from various western European travelers and US Evangelist missionaries. You can find these in history section.
        Last edited by Onur; 01-26-2011, 11:43 AM.

        Comment

        • Voltron
          Banned
          • Jan 2011
          • 1362

          Let me guess Onur, you guys were Angels.
          Last edited by Voltron; 01-26-2011, 03:28 PM.

          Comment

          • Voltron
            Banned
            • Jan 2011
            • 1362



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            Last edited by Voltron; 01-26-2011, 03:21 PM.

            Comment

            • Voltron
              Banned
              • Jan 2011
              • 1362

              See how the word Bulgaria is scratched out. I laughed to myself when I first saw it. I figured it was somebody that obviously disagreed with that reference. Mind you this is at a Greek archeological site. Maybe a Macedonian working for the Greek Archeolgical Dept ?



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              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                Voltron the so called slavic hordes went through greece,albania,bulgaria,& turkey to classify just macedonia as slavic is completely unfair.What did happen when these illiterate hordes went through macedonia they adopted the macedonian language & writing & ere assimilated.The slavic hordes did no more damage than other people who went trough macedonia.If we apply the same logic then greece should be called slavic & other countries as well.The slavic smear is actually more widespread when macedonia became part of yugoslavia
                & part of the brainwashing that all sides used was to tell the macedonian population that they should take pride in their slavic heritage & renounce their beleif in the ancient macedonian heritage.Even today famous politicians still beleive in the slavic theory that we have no connection with the ancients.They beleive that the macedonians got wiped out in the sixth century when the slavic hordes invaded.This theory & others are flawed as the slavs were assimilated & they adopted the macedonian language as they were illitrate.
                Last edited by George S.; 01-26-2011, 04:46 PM. Reason: edit
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • Onur
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2010
                  • 2389

                  Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                  Let me guess Onur, you guys were Angels.
                  I didn't say that but i am used to read this answer from Greeks whenever i wrote something about them. I think it`s because of psychology of guilt, eh?

                  But hey, at least we didn't force people to speak our language. That was the point.

                  Comment

                  • Makedonetz
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 1080

                    Originally posted by Voltron View Post


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                    Voltron let me add my input as my father is from that villiage and lived on the island. Before the civil war my grandfather would trade freely with the neighboring villiages in that region and there was no greek, this new stuff built there is from greece and on the island there was only 3 houses left standing as the entire villiage was evacuated. Seeing from the pictures new houses were built probaly over my familys houses and grave stones. My grandmothers brother was still living there in their basement of the house. Sar Samoil was macedonian the greeks have twisted everything, they have made mala prespa into a cash cow for tourism which im happy as its a beutiful place{but not in a way to show our rich culture) That bridge before was not there, they had to take a row boat to and from the island. Must be nice to visit places that have no significance to you greeks, its funny my family was born their and they are denied to this day to come back but only if we proclaim my last name is greek not macedonian.
                    Last edited by Makedonetz; 01-26-2011, 06:20 PM.
                    Makedoncite se borat
                    za svoite pravdini!

                    "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                    - Goce Delchev

                    Comment

                    • TrueMacedonian
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 3810

                      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                      Another person's myth can be another's fact. History can be up to each person's interpretation. Posting an opinon from those authors does not negate anything. Although I may not agree, I did find it an interesting read.
                      But the fact is common sense (like blinding so many soldiers is unrealistic) which should be more suitable in regards to accuracy than mere nationalistic interpretations to invent pseudo-history books for the indoctrination of children.
                      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3810

                        Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                        In the above do you mean my response to SOM? Yes of course it applies to us as well. There has been many changes in Macedonia over time. The Slav incursion in my view has been the defining factor and ultimitly the root of this " political " name problem that we have today.

                        To answer your first part of your question its quite simple.
                        Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe therefore part of our modern ethnos.
                        .......if it smells like it and looks like it then it must be
                        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                        Comment

                        • Dejan
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 589

                          Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                          Due to the simple fact that ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe. To me its a fact, to you it may not be and I respect that.
                          This is a highly inaccurate misconception that is eaten up by your side. Even ancient scholars beg to differ. Sadly for you and your ilk, it is not good enough just to simply claim this misconception as fact. We, as Macedonians by ethnicity, are living proof that you have lied about the modern history of Macedonians now living on your side of the border. How can you be trusted with history dating back 2300 years???
                          You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                          A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                            I dont believe that Greek language was forced. I understand the influence that Greek language had in the area and will give the benefit of the doubt.
                            Well, start believing it, because there is plenty of documented evidence in our history & exposing lies sub-forums. Do us all a favour and research them first before you start repeating the same old stories that are typical of ignorant Greeks.
                            I believe the Bulgarians reached as far as Albania.
                            What do you mean by 'Bulgarians' reaching as far as Albania? You mean the actual Turkic Bulgars themselves? Or possibly their vassals, a few of which may have been of Iranic origin, which would then lend weight to the assertions of some who place the Albanian language within the group of Aryan or Indo-Iranic language family?
                            Pls note I understand that the use of the term Bulgarian was a broad term. So please dont take my reply wrong
                            Then use it correctly and elaborate when required, so people won't get it 'wrong'.
                            Ive been there myself, St Achilles of Prespa. Absolutly stunning area. That being said, it is pretty much accepted that he was a Bulgarian.
                            Accepted by who, Greek and Bulgarian scholars, and those in the west that have accepted their interpretation? I would rather the Macedonian interpretation where it concerns events and activities relating to Macedonia and the Macedonian people. Think about it logically - the citizens of Samuel's empire are the ancestors of today's Macedonians, whatever the political label attached to them during that era. Period.
                            There is a contemporary plaque on display on St. Achilles island, I will see if I can upload it sometime.
                            Irrelevant.
                            The really wierd part of that plaque is that someone scratched out the reference to Tsar Samuil the " Bulgarian " king.
                            So some Macedonian scratched off the reference, what's the big deal? I can cite plenty of 'wierd' actions by Greeks that make would make this example pale in comparison. It's not a door you want to open.
                            Identity in the region was not the same as we know it today.
                            Your statement is ambiguous. The Macedonian identity may not always have been consistent in terms of influence and exact geographical location, but it has had a continued existence throughout history.
                            There is no reason to not believe that Greeks assimilated to the Latin language as Macedonians today assimlated to Slavic.
                            Are you trying to claim that all Vlachs are Greek, or that all of the Vlachs in Macedonia are Greeks? What are you talking about?
                            And Greeks.
                            Look for your ancestors in Greece (or Turkey?), not Macedonia.
                            Vlachs and Arvanites to me are a valid Greek component and thus indeginous to the area.
                            They are certainly a component of what constitutes a modern Greek today. Speaking of which, were you aware that your first president was an Albanian who couldn't speak Greek?

                            Title page. Page 30. Source: History of the Greek Revolution By George Finlay, Published by W. Blackwood and sons, 1861, page 30. The first President of Greece was an Albanian who could not speak a word of modern Greek. Why is that so? Why is not George Konduriottes mentioned over at Wikipedia as a President of Greece?


                            To be perfectly honest, Vlachs and Arvanites are their own ethnicities and are distinct from the Greek ethnicity, despite the delusions your state has managed to build up over the course of time. Have a read of Greece's first constitution to realise why it was so easy for these non-Greeks to be considered 'Greek'.

                            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...C+constitution

                            Greeks are:

                            a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
                            b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
                            e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
                            Technically, anybody could be the ancestors of today's Greek, if the above document is anything to go by.
                            I happen to think the opposite. They were Iranic that picked up Turkic loanwords or habits.
                            A simple look at a map and the distribution of Turkic speakers and Iranic speakers in historical times will show you that the former had to pass the latter as they travelled west. Going by your logic, the so-called 'Iranic' Bulgars would first have to travel east to pick up Turkic 'loanwords or habits', and then do a u-turn and go back west and beyond into Europe. It just doesn't sound practical or logical, but if you can corroborate some of your assertions with explanations I am happy to discuss further.
                            Because they are documented. Mellingoi and Ezerites.
                            But they (and several others) form part of the so-called Greek 'ethnos'. Who is more the Hellene, these 'Slavs' that have been in the Peloponnese for 1,500 years, or the conglomerate of Christian groups (with varied ethnicities) that arrived on the shores of the Greek state about 90 years ago?

                            Can you understand how stupid it sounds when a Macedonian hears a prosfiga from Anatolia (that has been in Europe less than a century) claiming a Macedonian heritage? Wonders never cease to amaze.
                            There is no reason to rule out the possiblity todays Macedonians having Greek lineage at one point.
                            No, there isn't, but there is good reason to rule out its significance in the overall picture of Macedonian ethnicity.
                            I also dont agree with the Macedonian language being related to Ancient Macedonian dialect of Greek. Hope you dont take it personal.
                            I do take it personal because the suggestion of an ancient Macedonian 'dialect' of Greek is incorrect. It's a term that is thrown around by people like yourself and results from historical manipulation. The fact is, there is not a single piece of evidence for such a 'dialect'. Even that Pella tablet that is flashed around like some great 'find' doesn't exhibit the linguistic characteristics typical of Macedonian speech at the time. The ancient Macedonians used Attic and then Koine as an official language for their state - don't let it confuse you too much, the Turkic Bulgars also used Greek as an official language before the students of Cyril and Methodius gave them a sense of linguistic identity independent from Greek, Latin and their own Turkic tongue.

                            Perhaps the Turkic Khan Asparuh was a Hellenised Iranian? Or perhaps, he was just a Bulgar.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • julie
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2009
                              • 3869

                              Voltron, your comment the Greek language was not forced I am taking as a personal insult. My mother went to school totally in the Greek language, my grandmother had the shot beaten out of her for speaking Macedonian IN HER HOME where Greek spies under her window heard her speaking to my family. My grandfather was led away to be murdered for SPEAKING Macedonian instead of your disgusting language. I suggest you read this forum, the threads, and the rules. You may feel a lot more at home on one of your Vlach forums. We are free here.
                              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                              Comment

                              • Voltron
                                Banned
                                • Jan 2011
                                • 1362

                                I read the forum rules Julie. I dont intend on breaking any.
                                For your own sake, I suggest you leave your hate behind you. It will only make you that much more miserable as a person.

                                Comment

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