Macedonia - Where to Now?

[Vangelovski]

Most of us on this forum have come to the realisation that the Macedonian people are almost a lost cause. Well done. This is the first step towards being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Unfortunately, we are a tiny minority. The vast majority of Macedonians globally seem to be of the view that the Macedonians are a free people with an independent state (and all of which that entails). They continue to live the delusion that the entire world is working 24/7 against Macedonia (because that's all that really matters to 7 billion people) but the Macedonians are so intelligent and dilligent that really they are the ones pulling all the strings and some grand scheme is unfolding before our eyes. In fact, our elected representatives are so gifted, that they know...they know.

Sarcasm aside, questions remain - where to now? Lets assume there is a slither of hope. How do we change people? How do we convince them that they have rights? How do we convince them that as individuals and as a group, they deserve their freedom? How do we convince them that they should exercise their rights and their freedom? On the flip side, how do we convince them that they have responsbilities? That they need to work for their rights and their freedoms, both as individuals and collectively? And where does this push need to come from - from within Macedonia or the Diaspora?

We've had these conversations before but they fizzle out because its a hard one. Lets give it another go now.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Vangelovski - Good post and an important thread.

I'll be intending to provide my opinion on this subject as soon as I'm able to and I encourage all forum participants, new and old, to do likewise

[makedonche]

Vangelovski
Excellent post, it's never too late, in my opinion the later we leave it the more drastic the actions and undertakings need to be. As you say the Macedonian people in the Former Yugoslav Republic ( since they have no objection to the use of the acronym) are almost a basket case. The Diaspora is divided and fragmented on an international level - on local levels they are more cohesive. To me it's about the basics, to motivate people on a simple level it's fear or reward, most Macedonians have succumbed to fear...no matter the reward or what's at stake, so we either crank up the fear level to a point where they have no choice but to react, or conversely we crank up the reward factor to a level that gets them off their backsides and wanting to stand up for their rights.
Given we don't have the resources to reward Macedonians for standing up for their rights, by buying them a t.v., mobile phone, unlimited coffee & beer, a roof over their head, the latest fashion, a new car, gauranteed employment with the government and a generous pension to retire on after their many years of service to the government( doing fuck all). The obvious choice then becomes the fear factor - threaten to take all those things away and let's see if that motivates them!

[Risto the Great]

Where to now?
Somewhere else I imagine.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski
Excellent post, it's never too late, in my opinion the later we leave it the more drastic the actions and undertakings need to be. As you say the Macedonian people in the Former Yugoslav Republic ( since they have no objection to the use of the acronym) are almost a basket case. The Diaspora is divided and fragmented on an international level - on local levels they are more cohesive. To me it's about the basics, to motivate people on a simple level it's fear or reward, most Macedonians have succumbed to fear...no matter the reward or what's at stake, so we either crank up the fear level to a point where they have no choice but to react, or conversely we crank up the reward factor to a level that gets them off their backsides and wanting to stand up for their rights.
Given we don't have the resources to reward Macedonians for standing up for their rights, by buying them a t.v., mobile phone, unlimited coffee & beer, a roof over their head, the latest fashion, a new car, gauranteed employment with the government and a generous pension to retire on after their many years of service to the government( doing fuck all). The obvious choice then becomes the fear factor - threaten to take all those things away and let's see if that motivates them!

You make an interesting point in relation to the 'fear factor'. I've always thought about what the response would be if the diaspora stoped sending remittences. The only problem is that noone would actually do that because (knowing most) it would mean someones mother or grandmother would starve before the "men" in the family over there gave up their daily dose of caffeine and nicotine.

[julie]

Good thread, Tom. I tried to start a thread on empowerment some time ago.

Psychologically empowering individuals that they can make positive and pro active decisions, to over ride their own circumstances, Makedonche has touched on that with the "reward", for something to be gained.
Media, through government, brainwashes the masses, generate fear, to gain control - it happens in all societies. We do not receive news without bias, and it all comes down to power and control.

A lot of what happens to an individual, in life, they will either choose to accept , or try to make change for their situation. It will come at a point when that individual has no source of income, as an example, and will work out ways to make income - whether through employment, or alternative means.

Individuals need to have an awakening - their needs to be a social consciousness that acceptance is not the only option. But for RoM, it appears the majority of people do not have that consciousness - and this is where something needs to occur for there to be a shift in their thinking

I recall using the softly softly approach was a way of achieving this, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and remember you saying its by beating them over the head with it And I concur, not literally, ( maybe some lol ) that they need to be shocked into their reality

An example will use is a project have been working on , and have come to the decision, that because I did not have the advocacy I needed in regard to my personal situation, that if I did not try to do something, so others do not unjustly go through traumatic processes, then I must do something, and this will come into open discussion here in a few weeks.

If Macedonians can change their mindset, in knowing they have the power to change their circumstance, and there will be reward at the end of the process, then they may listen - they are not bothered with the situation they are in because most of them live a lifestyle many of us do not here in Oz - and for this to be under threat, then the money from the diaspora must stop.

I dont understand why a group of enlightened individuals within RoM cannot form a new political party, one with clear policies, and encouragement of diaspora investment to stimulate growth, jobs etc . Pelister has previously suggested small townships to be formed, that are self serving - almost a country within a country - Zeitgeist style.

I will think on this for a couple of days , whilst am without access to pc and internet and get back to this thread in greater detail.

[Gocka]

In the last few months I have directly engaged many Macedonians both from the Diaspora and from the Republic, from varying age groups and regions, there are a few common denominators that they all seem to have.

-Arrogance, we exhibit it here pretty often, but I think a lot of us have something to show for it, where as people in the republic, no matter how low they have sunk in life they still tend to be very arrogant. This is very important when trying to convince someone that they are wrong. You touched on it above, no matter how bad things get they still think they are in control when in reality they never have been.

-Priorities, I have spoken about this before. Most Macedonians have money on their mind not some vague ides of freedom, responsibility and liberty. Sadly the one who are more intelligent and have a higher chance of grasping these concepts, are the first ones who couldn't care less. The more people in Macedonia get educated the more they just want out or just want a modern European lifestyle, rather then an identity and a republic. To a degree even regardless of education most of them are concerned with a more materialistic life then anything else, this stems from our jealousy gene that we all have as Macedonians.

-Future vs Today, this is where we are so different from the Albanians. They think for the future, Macedonians think for today, in more ways then one. It starts at home, for example, Albanians have a mentality in their household, to work together and to grow, they work hard and dont mind working hard now and reaping the benefits later. Macedonians only work with instant gratification, they dont like to save they dont like to do anything that is not guaranteed to pay dividends immediately. That is why in ROM most new business start up are Albanians or Turks. That is why we make poor business men, Macedonians fail to see value in anything that happens in the future. That is why it is impossible to convince them to give up something now for a better future.

Fear- We are fearful people in general, whether in the Diaspora or in ROM we are like ants, we let anyone walk all over us it seems we are only not afraid of other Macedonians which to me says that we are disgusted with ourselves. Its some kind of self loathing complex, where we fear everyone accept other Macedonians because we know how fearful we are ourselves and know other Macedonians are the same. Even as teenagers I remember the only fist fights that ever involved Macedonians were when it was against other Macedonians, not once do I remember anyone having the guts to fight with anyone else.



Solutions- Now that's a tough one.

The real problem is that we have no solid footing to start on. For example historically, almost ever radical or revolutionary movement starts on some kind of solid platform, one that is difficult to taint.

In my opinion the first thing that must be done is to figure out what will be the jump off point. Will it be through pop culture like music, TV, film. Or maybe through academia (this one tends to take generations to see effects but is probably necessary regardless).

You have to infiltrate a corner stone of the population and build from there. As you said we are small in number, the ones who want change, so we cant spread ourselves thin, we need to stick together and attack from one base. For example lets say you infiltrate sport, it has a wide audience and can be fanatical in its following, you infiltrate sport and use it as a base to distribute your message, but even that requires participation from athletes and teams.

This will sound stupid but I have two theories that are kind of odd but I think will work if done right.

Make nationalism profitable- make it pay someone to be a bigger patriot then the next guy.

What if we funded a monthly contest something where you give a prize every week or month to "the biggest patriot" Have it be a voting thing like American Idol. You tell people to commit patriotic acts, define rules, and objectives, then have people vote on who they think did the most patriotic thing. This way you get it two fold, you have people trying to do patriotic things, and what ever they do is broadcast to a wider audience and may inspire others. Think about it, even a $3000 prize is huge to an average Macedonian. You let them be inventive but define some ground rules so that you make sure that things like the ventilator get cast out. I think this can be developed into a powerful tool. It hits so many cords, entertainment, prize money, interaction, pride. Its a little out there but if done right I think it might just work. "Naj Golemiot Patriot"

The other idea, is someone using Non Macedonians to spread the right messages. Macedonians dont respect other Macedonians, this is a fact. Well maybe if the person doing the talking is not Macedonian people mind feel more compelled to listen. Maybe we can some how use non Macedonians to make Macedonians feel ashamed of themselves. This one is tricky but Macedonians are big on shame of from others. They care a lot more what Europe thinks of them then what we think of them.

We need to come together as a group, that is why I started the thread Operation Sonce. To get us together to discuss actual plans as a group and act as a group. Like I said above, we need to gather as many willing souls as possible and pick a base to start building from. Every institution in ROM is corrupt and tainted to hell, we have to take something and start from scratch, in my opinion its the only way forward.

[skeletor]

Good thread, Tom. I tried to start a thread on empowerment some time ago.

Psychologically empowering individuals that they can make positive and pro active decisions, to over ride their own circumstances, Makedonche has touched on that with the "reward", for something to be gained.
Media, through government, brainwashes the masses, generate fear, to gain control - it happens in all societies. We do not receive news without bias, and it all comes down to power and control.

A lot of what happens to an individual, in life, they will either choose to accept , or try to make change for their situation. It will come at a point when that individual has no source of income, as an example, and will work out ways to make income - whether through employment, or alternative means.

Individuals need to have an awakening - their needs to be a social consciousness that acceptance is not the only option. But for RoM, it appears the majority of people do not have that consciousness - and this is where something needs to occur for there to be a shift in their thinking

I recall using the softly softly approach was a way of achieving this, but desperate times call for desperate measures, and remember you saying its by beating them over the head with it And I concur, not literally, ( maybe some lol ) that they need to be shocked into their reality

An example will use is a project have been working on , and have come to the decision, that because I did not have the advocacy I needed in regard to my personal situation, that if I did not try to do something, so others do not unjustly go through traumatic processes, then I must do something, and this will come into open discussion here in a few weeks.

If Macedonians can change their mindset, in knowing they have the power to change their circumstance, and there will be reward at the end of the process, then they may listen - they are not bothered with the situation they are in because most of them live a lifestyle many of us do not here in Oz - and for this to be under threat, then the money from the diaspora must stop.

I dont understand why a group of enlightened individuals within RoM cannot form a new political party, one with clear policies, and encouragement of diaspora investment to stimulate growth, jobs etc . Pelister has previously suggested small townships to be formed, that are self serving - almost a country within a country - Zeitgeist style.

I will think on this for a couple of days , whilst am without access to pc and internet and get back to this thread in greater detail.

Here, This is from a Canadian Macedonian who has lived atleast half of the past 6 years in Macedonia. Diaspora money must stop, because EVERYONE is accustomed to it.. Personally we(my family) have never sent money but I know macedonians whos whole life basis revolves around this. Now there is people, who are educated and are making there own money.. for the most part its jobs in coding but atleast there is some people who dont actually work in government jobs or affiliated with either party. obviosly everyone knows the real problem is that most people are party based and at the top of the order gruevski and branko like each other being "rivals" .. on brankos side him still being able to run some things and not go to jail.. on gruevskis side knowing no matter how bad it gets macedonians will never vote for branko or even sdsm. That way there's no real competition against Vmro.

Second the Government is wanting to keep people stupid.. in hence by trying to bring religion in the forefront and having bullshit turkish, spanish and indian Soap Operas on Tv at PRIMETIME EVERYDAY.. so let me tell you guys how bad this soap opera bullshit is.. it fucks up people heads, dumbs down reality and makes people concentrate and make big deals out of things that should realistically be irreverent in human life. Its so bad that a majority of people watch this bullshit... the only hope is the INTERNET and the YOUNG PEOPLE.. alot of young people use the internet and are finding different, cool, and inspiring things to occupy them.

Saying this, Many have suggested going back and starting a Revolution..lol but you guys dont realize MACEDONIANS WONT LISTEN TO YOU.. you dont understand how ARROGANT they can be.. the way they see it some fucking selanec from australia or canada is going to come and tell us how things are supposed to be... yeaah right, everyone whos came back and tried business's has failed because they DONT like you... and its not just jealousy the view they have of people from these places are of fucking LOSERS..the majority of stranci that come during the summer are idiots.. girls dont even hook up with them.

Now this is more relevant in smaller citys ie. bitola, prilep, kumanovo and etc. Skopje has some exception, and maybe with strength in numbers its possible... but that would be if say like 20 or 30 of us smart diaspora left our lives and moved back with the real goal of changing things with a good amount of money. Starting some kind of organization with real dedication and planning that would team up with certain grassroots organizations and young groups. But for something like that to happen is highly unlikely. But I will say this there is people who are ready, young people who dont like whats going and who are smart and are willing to jump in if they see that real progress could be made. Yes sure macedonians have this tendicy of being Picki to fight for their rights but then again theres also a history of warriors that will fight if it comes down to it.

All this aside, I think the greatest way we could help ROM would be to find a way to implement science and focus on developing clean energy and scientific education from the early stages of school.

EDIT: this was a reply to more people not just the one quoted, also I want to add that macedonians atleast bitolacni feel some kind of way about doing any labour type job. For instance the Standard pay for people who do SKILLED TRADE.. like Tile Layering, Drywall Installation, and most construction related work is up to par with MAJOR citys in europe.. and theres a big wait for these type of workers because no one wants to do this job. People would rather get a job as a waiter making 500 denars a day than get paid $200 euros a day because its "Demeaning " lol .. just a insight in the mind state of many bitolchani.. cant speak for other citys on this one

[ramo]

Most of us on this forum have come to the realisation that the Macedonian people are almost a lost cause. Well done. This is the first step towards being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Unfortunately, we are a tiny minority. The vast majority of Macedonians globally seem to be of the view that the Macedonians are a free people with an independent state (and all of which that entails). They continue to live the delusion that the entire world is working 24/7 against Macedonia (because that's all that really matters to 7 billion people) but the Macedonians are so intelligent and dilligent that really they are the ones pulling all the strings and some grand scheme is unfolding before our eyes. In fact, our elected representatives are so gifted, that they know...they know.

Sarcasm aside, questions remain - where to now? Lets assume there is a slither of hope. How do we change people? How do we convince them that they have rights? How do we convince them that as individuals and as a group, they deserve their freedom? How do we convince them that they should exercise their rights and their freedom? On the flip side, how do we convince them that they have responsbilities? That they need to work for their rights and their freedoms, both as individuals and collectively? And where does this push need to come from - from within Macedonia or the Diaspora?

We've had these conversations before but they fizzle out because its a hard one. Lets give it another go now.

Simple question. Are you living in Macedonia?

[Vangelovski]

Simple question. Are you living in Macedonia?

Whether I live, have lived or plan to live in Macedonia does not make any difference. Do don't run the thread off course with that old one. It has no place on this forum.

[ramo]

Whether I live, have lived or plan to live in Macedonia does not make any difference. Do don't run the thread off course with that old one. It has no place on this forum.

Ok. No problem. I thought in the first post i read of the need of us being pressured and changed the way we think. I think also that there is no need to take part in thread that has retarded first post.

[Risto the Great]

I think also that there is no need to take part in thread that has retarded first post.

I presume you do not live there. I also safely assume you believe being a Macedonian is not enough of a reason to justify commenting on the need for change in Macedonia.

From this we should deduce that you find the current conditions in Macedonia acceptable. Thanks for your comments (FY)RAMO

[Risto the Great]

EDIT: this was a reply to more people not just the one quoted, also I want to add that macedonians atleast bitolacni feel some kind of way about doing any labour type job. For instance the Standard pay for people who do SKILLED TRADE.. like Tile Layering, Drywall Installation, and most construction related work is up to par with MAJOR citys in europe.. and theres a big wait for these type of workers because no one wants to do this job. People would rather get a job as a waiter making 500 denars a day than get paid $200 euros a day because its "Demeaning " lol .. just a insight in the mind state of many bitolchani.. cant speak for other citys on this one

In contract, ethnic Albanians are commonly involved in trades. They make money and are quite resourceful. But Macedonians rely on their wonderful sense of sarcasm to get through their lives instead.

[ramo]

I presume you do not live there. I also safely assume you believe being a Macedonian is not enough of a reason to justify commenting on the need for change in Macedonia.

From this we should deduce that you find the current conditions in Macedonia acceptable. Thanks for your comments (FY)RAMO

I live in Macedonia. And i really do not get how the macedonians emigrants get the totally retarded idea that they have the slightest authority, possibility or right to ask for change of the people in the republic. Maybe it was better to answer on private message because i see some people are sensitive for being rude and cheeky towards us.

The situation in macedonia is a mess. You do not have strong skills for deduction i guess.

[Gocka]

I live in Macedonia. And i really do not get how the macedonians emigrants get the totally retarded idea that they have the slightest authority, possibility or right to ask for change of the people in the republic. Maybe it was better to answer on private message because i see some people are sensitive for being rude and cheeky towards us.

The situation in macedonia is a mess. You do not have strong skills for deduction i guess.

Gledam deka tesko ti odit Angliskiot jazik, pa eve po nase, ustvari izvini, po "vase" da razgovarame. Po "vase" velam deka izgleda od ko ke se preselis od Makedonija sve so e Makedonsko ne e veke tvoje, baram taka ti tvrdese predhodno. Eve jas za primer skoro pola zivot go imam pominato vo Makedonija, ama od ko su zaminal od Makedonija toa znacit ne sum pojke Makedonec, Makedonija ne e moja majcina drzava, i nemam nikakvi pravila pojke ni da zborvam za ili da se boram za Makedonija taka? Me interesirat po koja logika ne "retardirana" si zaklucil deka taka e?

Dali si svesen deka vo sekoja druga drzava osven vo nasata dupka crna, Diasporata e mnogu biten del od kulturata i od narodot, deka drugi drzavi se gordeet so nivniti diaspori, ama samo vie ne mrazite i izvini ame i ne ljubomorite radi sto nie imavme prilika da odi vo stranstvo. I radi nie sto e prifativme ta prilika toa znacit ne sme veke Makedonci? Zosto, deka vi e krivo deka ne e delime vasata mizerna sudbina za koja sto vie ste skoro 100 possto krivi?

Ajde mozis nekoj kako mene da mrazis, jas sum od Republikata, i su preselem vo stranstvo. Ama kako mojs da gi krivis nekoj od ovie so se egejci? Znacit tie ne beja krivi deka grcine gi maltretiraja i deka gi izbrkaja od nivnite domovi. Tie pojketo ne se vo stranstvo radi so sakaja ama deka vo vremeto nemale druga opcija, i sega toj tebe ti e kriv so Makedonija e dupka.

So ne ti e jasno deka i nie sme Makedonci, i naseto mislejne vazit, i mozit ako ne bese radi lujge kako tebe, so ne delet, mozi ke mozevme da se zdruzime site zaedno i da gi resime site problemi sto gi imat nasata drzava.

Od takvo arogantno mislejne kako tvojeto ne mojme da pomognime. Ama dobro znajme, Makedonecot znajt samo so svojte da se borit, ne znajt protiv drugi da se borit.

Ti e strav od siptaron, pred nego nemas madinja da zborvis, mojt sekakvo ponizenije da ti storit i pak ke si cutis kako kukavica, ama em recit nekoj Makedonec nesto, po gotovo od stranstvo, setne odma skokas, navredvis.

Radi defektni kukavici kako tebe site stradame.

Ama dobro, prodolzete, jas si imam kaj da izbegam, ti nemas kaj da ojs mameto tvoje. Ko ke te sovladeet siptarine, setne tvojata kerka ke e zabulet, ne mojata. Setne ke ne barate, i mozit setne nie ke ti gi povtorime tvojte zborovi, deka nie ne sme Makedonci.

Zato ako sakas razmisli ubo, dali tvojete mislejne e korisno, ne za nas ama za tebe. Uste pustam raka tvoje e dali ke prifatis.