United Macedonia Diaspora

[aleksandrov]

Buktop,

I think we finally agree on something. I don't justify the Patriot Act. In fact, I think the US Government acted beyond its constitutional authority with regards to that Act.

Our original question was "Does the Macedonian Government have the constitutional authority to negotiate with a foreign government, changes to the Macedonian constitution?". Do we now agree that it does not?

That question not only raises legalistic arguments that are probably not appropriate for a forum of this nature, but others can use it to detract attention from more fundamental issues.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be:

Does the Macedonian Government have a moral right or political authority to negotiate away the Macedonian people's sovereignty and entitlement to enjoy universally codified human rights with foreign governments? Even if the Constitution gives it that opportunity from the perspective of formal domestic law, does that amount to a moral right or legitimate political authority?

The legitimacy of the law ultimately depends on the degree to which its subjects accept it as legitimate (for now, I'll stay away from arguments about conflicts between domestic law and the International Bill of Rights), which often depends on whether it is applied justly and for its intended purpose.

The assumed fact that there is no effective legal restriction against the Parliament performing a certain act does not necessarily mean that the act itself is morally or politically just or legitimate.

Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?

[Risto the Great]

Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?

And there is the rub.
Welcome Aleksandrov.

[Buktop]

It is quite normal, even in the most formal forums, such as courts and parliaments, to consider the intentions and credibility of the persons making an argument, and especially a contentious statement or accusation, in assessing the argument, statement or accusation itself. So it's surprising that you might not understand why your true identity is important in evaluating your persistently touchy, offensive and often reason-defying reactions to criticisms of UMD and Macedonian Government (or is it US?) policy.

You may well have good reasons for to concealing your true identity, but you cannot reasonably insist that that's not an important matter.




Let's deal with one thing at a time here.

Indigen has on at least two (maybe three) occasions posted this link to a UMD public statement on the UMD website, which says:

"President Trajkovski stood behind his people through many trials and tribulations. His thoughts are prevalent even today. “The [Framework] Agreement is not perfect, but no agreement ever is…It is the best thing we have right now…The alternative is division at all levels: civil, inter-ethnic, political and generational…The alternative to peace is war, which will expose everyone to mass casualties, misery and a loss of perspective for many years to come,” said President Trajkovski in 2001. Republic of Macedonia knocks on the door to NATO membership and is an EU member candidate. United Macedonian Diaspora encourages the Macedonian government, political opposition, and civil society not to forget the words of President Trajkovski and to continue towards the much-needed progress and reforms to ensure admission into all Euro-Atlantic institutions."

Do you see this apparent UMD public statement as a clear endorsement of the "Framework Agreement" or not?

If you are indeed an active UMD member, which is reasonable to suspect, you would do your organization a much greater service by either defending that policy with facts and reasoned arguments or remaining silent when it is criticized, than by futile, disingenuous and offensive denial of its very public existence.

I knew it was only a matter of time before you found your way into this debate.

I don't know Phoenix's identity, I don't know SoM's, I don't know Risto's etc... there are a handful of people on the forum that actually use their real names. Though I don't see you questioning the validity of anyone else's arguments based on their identity. It seems to be one of the more favored tactics of discrediting a persons arguments. Though on an internet forum, it is ultimately my right to choose what information I disclose (you never know what kind of crazies might be out there )

And I am sorry if you feel that my responses are touchy, offensive, and reason defying, I am sure you prefer the outright vulgar remarks of some here to my style of writing.

Why is my identity so important to you? What is it that bothers you so much about not knowing my name? You have my first name (hint: Dzog already pointed it out) That should be sufficient for you.

As for your questions regarding UMD, I have answered them already, feel free to read through the multiple threads here.

[Buktop]

That question not only raises legalistic arguments that are probably not appropriate for a forum of this nature, but others can use it to detract attention from more fundamental issues.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be:

Does the Macedonian Government have a moral right or political authority to negotiate away the Macedonian people's sovereignty and entitlement to enjoy universally codified human rights with foreign governments? Even if the Constitution gives it that opportunity from the perspective of formal domestic law, does that amount to a moral right or legitimate political authority?

The legitimacy of the law ultimately depends on the degree to which its subjects accept it as legitimate (for now, I'll stay away from arguments about conflicts between domestic law and the International Bill of Rights), which often depends on whether it is applied justly and for its intended purpose.

The assumed fact that there is no effective legal restriction against the Parliament performing a certain act does not necessarily mean that the act itself is morally or politically just or legitimate.

Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?

Why have the citizens not filed a suit at the constitutional court to question the legality of the Interim and Framework agreements?

[Soldier of Macedon]

You may well have good reasons for to concealing your true identity, but you cannot reasonably insist that that's not an important matter.

This is one thing that I won't condone here. If there are members that have chosen to use their real names as usernames on this forum, then that is a choice they have made. Those that haven't done this, and don't wish to do so, are under no obligation.

This part of the debates needs to be cut out altogether. Members will not be requested to provide their personal details. At the same token, those members that are using their real names as usernames, will not have their characters attacked in a personal manner. Let's respect each other in these decisions, 90% of the people here don't feel comfortable providing their real names, and I am one of them. Recent examples from some Greek racists have justified this decision.

[Rogi]

You mean my personal details and Risto's and Jankovska's personal details being posted on the Greek forums?

Or do you mean the annoying phone calls I used to get, threatening to kill my family and my dog (I don't have a dog, btw)?

[Prolet]

Rogi, When was this??

[aleksandrov]

I knew it was only a matter of time before you found your way into this debate.

I don't know Phoenix's identity, I don't know SoM's, I don't know Risto's etc... there are a handful of people on the forum that actually use their real names. Though I don't see you questioning the validity of anyone else's arguments based on their identity. It seems to be one of the more favored tactics of discrediting a persons arguments. Though on an internet forum, it is ultimately my right to choose what information I disclose (you never know what kind of crazies might be out there )

And I am sorry if you feel that my responses are touchy, offensive, and reason defying, I am sure you prefer the outright vulgar remarks of some here to my style of writing.

Why is my identity so important to you? What is it that bothers you so much about not knowing my name? You have my first name (hint: Dzog already pointed it out) That should be sufficient for you.

As for your questions regarding UMD, I have answered them already, feel free to read through the multiple threads here.

Enough with the petty diversions. I didn't ask you for your identity (at least not on this thread). I simply reminded you of an obvious social phenomenon which you pretend to be ignorant of: that your true identity is important to other reasonable people when weighing up your contentious actions, including statements and arguments. I did that because you chose to act surprised about the fact that Vangelovski considers it important.

You know very well that I have made numerous posts on Maknews to the effect that, in general, I find it morally objectionable for people to make contentious statements, especially statements that vilify or defame real people on public forums, while concealing their own true identity. I made that same argument to Vangelovski personally some time ago, and I believe he accepted it, given that he has subsequently swapped his former fictitious internet ID for his real name. Many people I generally respect disagree with me on this issue, but that takes nothing away from my convictions about it.

Now reply to the substance of my post or stop the futile red-herring.

You accused Vangelovski of baselessly claiming that the UMD leadership has supported the Framework Agreement. I referred you to a link that Indigen posted at least twice on this thread, which shows that UMD has published a statement of support for the Framework Agreement on its own website, which is still there. Why have you repeatedly evaded responding to that reference to clear evidence?

Do you still content that there is no evidence that the UMD has publicly supported the Framework Agreement?

[Prolet]

Welcome aboard Aleksandrov

Good to have you here

[aleksandrov]

Why have the citizens not filed a suit at the constitutional court to question the legality of the Interim and Framework agreements?

If you are going to judge others, first judge yourself.

What have YOU done to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

What have YOU done to encourage the UMD to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

If 90% of the citizens of Macedonia decide to sell their dignity and their identity for promises of material benefit or to be led by fear, does that justify you or anyone else jumping on the bandwagon?

[Rogi]

I won't discuss more Prolet, my lawyers wouldn't like that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You mean my personal details and Risto's and Jankovska's personal details being posted on the Greek forums?

Or do you mean the annoying phone calls I used to get, threatening to kill my family and my dog (I don't have a dog, btw)?

Yes to the first, I am sure you are already aware of that. As for the second point, I can't comment.

It is a shame that such psycho's exist in modern society, but there you have it, Greek racism has no limit of stupidity. Hence the reason why I respect everyone's individual decision on this, as I equally admire those that do use their real names for the courage in this respect (although I would advise against it based on the previously cited examples).

[aleksandrov]

People who make threats over the internet and telephone are full of hot air, while the ones who could really do something to you if they wanted to are very unlikely to do it because of what you posted on an internet forum, and they are not so easy to evade by the use of pseudonyms on the internet. Over the years, speaking up against injustice has made me the subject not only of countless telephone and internet/email threats by all sorts of faceless cowards, but also surveillance (or should I call it stalking) and direct and indirect intimidation and interrogation by state agents and 'kodoshi' who must find something to justify their pay, not only in Australia, but also in the Republic of Macedonia and Greece. Ironically enough, my worst experiences have been in the Republic of Macedonia itself, followed by Greece. Several other Macedonian activists I know have had similar experiences. We all find that the best form of protection is public exposure and never succumbing to fear.

[Rogi]

Yeah, though I put the second one down to a few idiots with nothing better to do in their lives than get drunk and make threatening drunk calls. It doesn't really happen anymore though, I think they've grown up a little.

A simple call to let the police know takes care of it either way.

[amitreski]

UMD is a tool of Western foriegn policy.

Western foriegn policy for Macedonia. Western institutions such as NATO and the E.U completely back Greece and the terms that Greece has put to the Macedonians.

Western structures such as the Interim Accord, the Ohrid Framework agreement ...etc, which are anti-Macedonian, are fully backed and supported by UMD.

Just a sample of what UMD are thinking. Here is the President commenting about "the reality" of the Ohrid Framework Agreement. Speaking as though the Macedonians hands are tied and have no choice. It is indicative of UMD unable to take a principled stand or position against current anti-Macedonian institutions and structures in the West. It also gives a clue about the attitude in the Macedonian parliament.



As for UMD and WMC ?

UMD members have taken a stand against Todor Petrov for no sound or logical reason, other than they see his organization as competition or occupying "space" they want to take over.

UMD Has never taken a stand against WMC. Stop lying.