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View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes 2 4.35%
No 44 95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-20-2012, 05:21 AM   #6301
vicsinad
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It was not a dark hour for Macedonia.
Let alone, it was not one of Macedonia's darkest hours.

And no, we did not take Greece to court to force them to accept us as FYROM. That was not the intention nor the effect of this court decision.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:51 AM   #6302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
And no, we did not take Greece to court to force them to accept us as FYROM. That was not the intention nor the effect of this court decision.
Read the ICJ application - that is exactly the intention and effect. Do you know why it was one of the darkest hours of Macedonian history? Because Macedonians voluntarily violated their own rights. In all the examples you cited it was other's who violated the rights of Macedonians. This was by far the most horrible act of self-loathing.

You're not a law student at all - you're nothing more than a BS artist. Did you used to post here as 'Buktop'?
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:01 AM   #6303
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For Victor (the guy who claims that the Turkish speaking "greek" immigrants have a legitimate claim to Egej):

Quote:
The Applicant [Macedonia] requests the Court:

(i) to adjudge and declare that the Respondent [Greece], through its State organs and
agents, has violated its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the
Interim Accord
;

(ii) to order that the Respondent immediately take all necessary steps to comply
with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord
, and
to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to
the Applicant’s membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and/or
of any other “ international, multilateral and regional organizations and
institutions ” of which the Respondent is a member, in circumstances where
the Applicant is to be referred to in such organizations or institutions by the
designation provided for in paragraph 2 of United Nations Security Council
resolution 817 (1993)
.
Do you know what this means pretend law student? It means that Macedonia applied to the ICJ to have it enforce the Interim Accord, and in particular, the provisions obliging Greece to accept the name FYROM in any organisation in which Macedonia applies for membership.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:43 AM   #6304
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Huh, and some of you think Brian's the conspiracy theorist...

Yes, it means Macedonia wanted the ICJ to enforce the Interim Accord. No, it wasn't because Macedonia wants to continue to be recognized as FYROM -- it's because they want to join NATO and they don't want Greece stopping them from joining NATO and other organizations. FYROM is a consequence of the politics of the 90s.

Though I explained my reasoning for all this earlier (about the IA and FYROM) and I don't like circling.

Haha pretend law student...is that all your over-thinking and over-struggling mind could come up with?
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:33 AM   #6305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
Huh, and some of you think Brian's the conspiracy theorist...

Yes, it means Macedonia wanted the ICJ to enforce the Interim Accord. No, it wasn't because Macedonia wants to continue to be recognized as FYROM -- it's because they want to join NATO and they don't want Greece stopping them from joining NATO and other organizations. FYROM is a consequence of the politics of the 90s.

Though I explained my reasoning for all this earlier (about the IA and FYROM) and I don't like circling.

Haha pretend law student...is that all your over-thinking and over-struggling mind could come up with?
Victor, you can paint it any way you like and provide whatever excuses you can come up with. Macedonia asked the ICJ to make a determination on enforcing the Interim Accord and in particular Greece's acceptance of the FYROM terminology. This was a disgrace - amateurish at best and pure treason at worst.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:31 PM   #6306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
However, that's not saying anything else about the plenty of other concerns people have with UMD.
vicsinad, from what I can gather from your posts subsequent to the above statement, you subscribe to much of what Meto believes in. Just because your father denounced them does not mean you should follow his path. You're more aligned with Meto than you might think by the looks of it.

I don't know why or how clever people like you can manage to muddle your focus so much. Lending support to the ICJ case and anything else with FYROM in the equation is not good for the Macedonian identity. Keep it simple son. Because we have seen the "complexity" of the situation and how it has crippled Macedonia over the last 20 years. It is a cancer that is ripe for treatment.

What a piss weak extension to this already miserable thread.

Perhaps we can have a vote for what represents Macedonians mostly:

1. Dumb Macedonians pretending to sound smart
2. Smart Macedonians pretending to sound dumb
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:31 AM   #6307
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Risto:

First, aside from the fact that mentioning my father is irrelevant, he and I don't really discuss Meto or UMD, so I really don't know much more about his UMD views than what he wrote about in his MPO/UMD paper.

Second, I barely know Meto or anyone in UMD. I've met Meto once or maybe twice when some of us in Detroit were trying to get MOYANA going. I was a UMD member in its earlier years, but I think for no more than a year.

Third, there are things, that I've see come out of UMD, that I agree and disagree with, same as with the MTO. That said, I support both MTO and the UMD. This may be labeled as hypocritical, dumb, weak, etc. and that's fine. But I see it as two different organizations both working for what they believe is in the best interests of Macedonia and Macedonians -- your "what to do" and "how to dos" differ, and some things they do (say) that you don't do I agree with, and the other way around. On top of that, based much on this thread, I understand there are many passionate views on how/what UMD should/shouldn't be doing, thus my qualifier that you quoted.

Fourth, I commend the MTO (from what I gather, includes at least Vangelovski, Risto, and Soldier) for doing good things. I think Vangelovski could probably benefit himself and the Cause by disagreeing less disrespectfully, but I don't think that takes much away from the work you guys are doing.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:45 AM   #6308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
But I see it as two different organizations both working for what they believe is in the best interests of Macedonia and Macedonians -- your "what to do" and "how to dos" differ, and some things they do (say) that you don't do I agree with, and the other way around.
The views of the MTO and UMD are fundamentally opposed. Its not just a matter of 'strategy', but basic fundamental beliefs. If it were merely differences in method, then we would have no problem supporting them just like we support the AMHRC. While we may have minor peripheral differences with the AMHRC, we agree on the core fundamentals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
I think Vangelovski could probably benefit himself and the Cause by disagreeing less disrespectfully.
You are right about this. I let the 'fire' in me take control too often. This does not mean that I don't think you are contradictory and hypocritical, nor does it mean that I agree with some of your core beliefs, which are basically the same as the UMD. But it does mean that at times I let loose and it is inappropriate.
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:15 PM   #6309
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Vangelovski:

Maybe you do have different fundamental beliefs. But I don't think that UMD is anti-Macedonian: I think they're for advancing Macedonian minority rights in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania; I think that they are for the territorial integrity of Macedonia; and I think they are for preserving the Macedonian identity and culture. While I am by no means suggesting anybody work together here with them, I still don't see everything about them as fundamentally opposed to what everything MTO stands for.

That's fine, you can think my views are hypocritical and contradictory; I think they're not. Do I and have I changed my mind? Yes, I have and yes i do...the more I'm exposed to different ideas and ways of thinking I will alter my beliefs and opinions. I don't feel like I always need to justify that, and that's one reason why I'm here on this forum: if I can offer any different insight that anyone cares about, fine. But if I can get different insight, that helps me out a lot.

I'm still young and my views will still change...I still struggle in trying to fight for what would be ideal rather than accepting reality and acting based from how things are really and how they're likely to proceed. I went from being religious to anti-religious to accepting it's cultural importance in my life. I went from omnivore to vegan to vegetarian. I went from being blindly Macedonian to hating the idea of ethnicity to genuinely loving Macedonian culture. And I went from supporting big government to being a proponent for state and local governments. I don't find changing my mind as being weak or hypocritical...I just constantly reevaluate where I'm at and constantly justify what I believe in. If new ideas, experiences and facts appear, I may find it no longer possible to justify where I stand and I have to change. Or the same may happen if I reevaluate old facts and experiences.

I say that because while you disagree with what I'm saying and believe in, it might just be better to let your beliefs and ideas stand for themselves without the excess, and probably less people who could be of some use to the cause will feel turned off or isolated (I think that applies to a lot of people, not just particularly you). I understand the emotional component, I just think emotions only reassure people who are already completely on board with whatever argument you make.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:55 AM   #6310
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Today, I will briefly make a few personal points regarding the upcoming NATO summit in Chicago.
- Macedonia will NEVER be accepted under the Republic of Macedonia in the United Nations.
- Macedonia MUST change their name if they expect to join either NATO or the EU.
- United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) is NOT really NGO’s rather PRO GOVERNMENTS excluding the obvious Greece, Bulgaria and Albania.
- The, special dinner for President Ivanov will be attended by approximately 300 elite Macedonians who willingly shell out $200 plus person to aid the UMD 50/50 spilt. NOTE: These types’ events the Macedonian elite purchase tables of 10 so at every table 8 person(s) are guests at $0.00 cost.
- Expect, to hear NOTHING NEW.

WHY SHOULD THE UMD NEVER BE TRUSTED? EmaiI response to me ... "don't know who you are but in North America they practice free speech. I am not part of umd but people and organizations are allowed the freedom to speak here. Take your concerns to them.
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone powered by Mobilicityl"

^ 100% A LIE

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Macedonia for the Macedonians

Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 05-08-2012 at 05:08 AM.
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