Paionia and Paionians

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by Daskalot

alot of names ending in -os-us-on-s thus they must also be considered Greek.........

Ending does not define the origin of a word.

[osiris]

famous paeonian city, bylazora, work out what language that sounds like.

[Вардарец]

Originally Posted by osiris

famous paeonian city, bylazora, work out what language that sounds like.

Oh you mighty god, oh why just Bylazora? Why don't you take Astibos too?

Wonder why?

We start with Astibos.

We remove the -os, we have Astib.

Now we know that koine didn't had some letter like Ш.

Now add Ш (sh) to it instead of s

You get Ashtib

It already becomes to sound familiar. B and P (Б и П) sound very similar, like T and D (Т и Д) do in the

Macedonian language.

Replace the b with p, you get Ashtip. Now compare it with Shtip (Штип).

Damn, sounds like it's the same city.

Coincidence?

[osiris]

thanks nashi i may be a god but even i dont know everything. the know everything label belongs to one who is truly ignorant, like some of our wannabe greeks on this forum, who know everything about everything.

[Вардарец]

About the Paeonians

Long time ago, i entered a debate with a Greek like Toothpaste, who was convinced that he is descendant from the ancient Macedonians, and that i, person from Republic of Macedonia, a descendant of ancient Paeonians/Moesians from the area.

He was stupid enough to point me to a link, which contained a picture.

This one :



But, after searching that site, i spotted something like this:



When i asked if he would accept that both i and he are Paeonians, he continued with the well known Greek addressing to the Macedonians ("Skopjan" , "Slav" , "Slavovoulgarian") etc etc.



I also remember that somewhere, SoM (Soldier of Macedonian) posted something in the following lines : "Samuil being from the Paeonians of old"

I would kindly ask him, if he remembers to re-post the quote/text piece from the book he was reading.

My overall opinion about the Paeonians

Before the kingdom of Macedonia was formed, indigenous tribes did exist on the territory, calling themselves under different names. Those people were the same people like the tribe of Pelagonians and Paeonians to the north, and similar to the Illyrians (west) and Thracians(east).

Those tribes unified themselves into a kingdom, for a better protection, which they called it Makedon.

Philip from Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great Macedonian, incorporated those tribes into his kingdom. And remember, incorporation was not done to the hellenic city-states to the south of the kingdom, but a bloody conquest.

[Pelister]

Originally Posted by Vardarets

Oh you mighty god, oh why just Bylazora? Why don't you take Astibos too?

Wonder why?

We start with Astibos.

We remove the -os, we have Astib.

Now we know that koine didn't had some letter like Ш.

Now add Ш (sh) to it instead of s

You get Ashtib

It already becomes to sound familiar. B and P (Б и П) sound very similar, like T and D (Т и Д) do in the

Macedonian language.

Replace the b with p, you get Ashtip. Now compare it with Shtip (Штип).

Damn, sounds like it's the same city.

Coincidence?

Shtip and Ashtibos are practically the same.

Bylazora and Astibos, I think, were two different places, in the same region. mmmm.

[osiris]

its a pointless exersize trying to reason with the fanatics of greece, they dont want to know anything that may shatter their lovely little myth.

[Вардарец]

Originally Posted by Pelister

Shtip and Ashtibos are practically the same.

Bylazora and Astibos, I think, were two different places, in the same region. mmmm.

Bylazora (Sveti Nikolsko, Veleshko) and Astibos (Shtip) are just couple of Kmiles away. 20, 30 at most.

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by Вардарец

About the Paeonians

Long time ago, i entered a debate with a Greek like Toothpaste, who was convinced that he is descendant from the ancient Macedonians, and that i, person from Republic of Macedonia, a descendant of ancient Paeonians/Moesians from the area.

Where in hell did i claim smth like that?
It would be rather stupid (you too) to be convinced for either mine,or your granpas 2500 years ago..as for every individual. (esp in the Balcans)

He was stupid enough to point me to a link, which contained a picture.
This one :

But, after searching that site, i spotted something like this:

You seem not much keen to the subject.
The second ("your") map is also true ,but predates the first.

As Homer himself mentions in Iliad Paionians of Axios valley and Amydon(on the map) fought with the Troyans.
Homer wrote abt 800-750 BC referring to a war fought in c.1200 BC.

As i already wrote in the times of Alexander I ,Macedon expanded eastwards ,expelling the Paionians from the lower bank of Axios (Vardar).
Thats in the 1st half of 5th century BC .Centuries later.

I also remember that somewhere, SoM (Soldier of Macedonian) posted something in the following lines : "Samuil being from the Paeonians of old"
I would kindly ask him, if he remembers to re-post the quote/text piece from the book he was reading.

This quote reminds the Byzantine author Ioannes Tzetzes (12th cent) who wrote tha the Bulgarians are really Paionians.
Chiliades, X.185. (reprint of the 1826 edition by Georg Ols, Hildesheim, 1963.)

My overall opinion about the Paeonians

Before the kingdom of Macedonia was formed, indigenous tribes did exist on the territory, calling themselves under different names. Those people were the same people like the tribe of Pelagonians and Paeonians to the north, and similar to the Illyrians (west) and Thracians(east).

Those tribes unified themselves into a kingdom, for a better protection, which they called it Makedon.

Philip from Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great Macedonian, incorporated those tribes into his kingdom. And remember, incorporation was not done to the hellenic city-states to the south of the kingdom, but a bloody conquest.

Well its nice as your opinion ,but absolutely false as a historical fact.

The kingdom of Macedon was established around 700-650 BC by the Argeads when they passed from "Upper Macedonia" (modern west Greek Macedonia and Bitola region) through Vermion mt to the plain of Emathia and Pieria.
The Paionians continued to live independently in the North (modern RoM).
The two states co-existed till Philip II conquered Paionia by making it a semi-autonomous,subordinate kingdom.
He firstly bribed them to evacuate the lands they raided and invaded,when their allies Illyrians defeated Perdikkas (brother of Philip) and his Macedonian army in 359 BC-Perdikkas fell on the battlefield) and the following year he invaded them ,defeated and conquered them.

But even after some decates Paionians managed to escape the Macedonian rule and reestablished indipendence under their own king and with their own capital (First Bylazora ,then Astibos) -(Macedonian capitals first Aigai ,then Pella).

Again Philip V reconquered Paionians (217 BC)

Paionia was considered part of Macedonia only after the Roman conquest when it was icorporated in Perfectura Macedonia.

[Вардарец]

Originally Posted by toothpaste

Where in hell did i claim smth like that?
It would be rather stupid (you too) to be convinced for either mine,or your granpas 2500 years ago..as for every individual. (esp in the Balcans)



You seem not much keen to the subject.
The second ("your") map is also true ,but predates the first.

As Homer himself mentions in Iliad Paionians of Axios valley and Amydon(on the map) fought with the Troyans.
Homer wrote abt 800-750 BC referring to a war fought in c.1200 BC.

As i already wrote in the times of Alexander I ,Macedon expanded eastwards ,expelling the Paionians from the lower bank of Axios (Vardar).
Thats in the 1st half of 5th century BC .Centuries later.




This quote reminds the Byzantine author Ioannes Tzetzes (12th cent) who wrote tha the Bulgarians are really Paionians.
Chiliades, X.185. (reprint of the 1826 edition by Georg Ols, Hildesheim, 1963.)



Well its nice as your opinion ,but absolutely false as a historical fact.

The kingdom of Macedon was established around 700-650 BC by the Argeads when they passed from "Upper Macedonia" (modern west Greek Macedonia and Bitola region) through Vermion mt to the plain of Emathia and Pieria.
The Paionians continued to live independently in the North (modern RoM).
The two states co-existed till Philip II conquered Paionia by making it a semi-autonomous,subordinate kingdom.
He firstly bribed them to evacuate the lands they raided and invaded,when their allies Illyrians defeated Perdikkas (brother of Philip) and his Macedonian army in 359 BC-Perdikkas fell on the battlefield) and the following year he invaded them ,defeated and conquered them.

But even after some decates Paionians managed to escape the Macedonian rule and reestablished indipendence under their own king and with their own capital (First Bylazora ,then Astibos) -(Macedonian capitals first Aigai ,then Pella).

Again Philip V reconquered Paionians (217 BC)

Paionia was considered part of Macedonia only after the Roman conquest when it was icorporated in Perfectura Macedonia.

#1

Sorry. But you, as a Greek, opening that topic, left me with no other opinion

But i do think that i am descendant of the Macedonian Ares (j/k)

#2

Yes, i am aware that the second map predates the first, it can be easily seen.
BUT, did the Macedonians drove the Paeonians from the Solun region completely, or just politically? That's a question which can not be solved.
Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.


#3

Yup and it is true. I, DO believe that he was speaking about the inhabitants of the thema Bulgaria (south Larisa, upwards Belgrade). It could not be possible that all those people there be the descendants of Kubrat's 100.000 horseman horde. Alas, the center of Bulgaria was the thema Paristrion, were those Paristrians ethnically, or just politically.

Am i correct?


#4

Will be my wishful thinking if i say Philip conquered the hellenic states, and you state your "historical" facts that Philip united the hellenes at Heronea?


The Macedonian kingdom was formed by the tribes living around Aigai. They were separate tribes, existing under different names before Macedon was formed. As time passed, more and more tribes were incorporated to the kingdom, through conquest and diplomacy.

If you are speaking about the later independence of the Paeonians, why not to speak about the Orestians(Core Macedonian tribe), which also gained independence for their war contributions against the Macedonian state from the Romans? Orestians lived in the area around Kostur. Were they too, separate from the Macedonians?

As you can see, my opinion falls that the Macedonians were a mix of the Thraco-Illirian tribes of the area, and not just specifically *Macedonians*. These people, had same/similar language.

Macedonians united into a state for a better protection, just like the Paeonians to the north, who were later incorporated into the Macedonian kingdom.

Can not say the same for Hellas, tho.

Paionia was part of Macedonia after Philip took over it.