Albanianization in Macedonia

[julie]

Thank you for your responses protiv propoganda. And yes, I am interested very much in the preservation of all that is left of Macedonia, our name, our identity.

[Big Bad Sven]

Wow, just found this thread, very good thread and much respect to the poster who started this thread, Very informative.

I have to laugh at the internet shiptars who boast that western macedonia has always been populated by shiptars. Its a lie, as the documents show the shiptar pressence has increased in western macedonia because of macedonians leaving their homes and fanatical shiptar colonization of those areas.

I was speaking to dad and uncles a few days ago and they told me that back in the 60's and 70's places like Struga, Gostivar and Kicevo had an extremely small number of shiptars, and the only places that had lots of shiptars were Tetovo and Skopje...

I would say even Debar would have been more macedonian in those times but unfortunately our weak minded torbeshi brothers have fallen in love to the all mighty gheg dollar and changed sides.

Amazing that there are shrines in the mountains of gheg terrorists who killed our brave soldiers and innocent civilians in 2001, what a sick joke!

I said this in a earlier thread, but i find it absolutely offensive that our "leaders" have done fuck all to stop all of these illegally built shrines and also the horrible new shiptar mueseum in skopje, that celebrate racist terrorists - yet at the same time nothing has been done to congratulate or honour the soldiers that have died in 2001.

There have been no memorials made for these soldiers, no awards given to them, no respect shown to them, no mention of them, no nothing! Its as if they never existed!

Whats worse is that the poor civillians havent been fully compensated or helped out after the 2001 "war" and have to see terrorist scum like Ali Ahmeti sitting in cossy government jobs and living it up.

What a total fucking farce the government in macedonia is.

Looks like dickless macedonians are happy to be slaves to the minority ghegs and constantly have the shiptars rubbing it in our faces as they slowly morph our country into some sick twisted gheg fantasy land

[George S.]

Just like the greek megali idea the albanians want a greater albania.Seeing how they got kosovo well they want to take over macedonia.One newspaper jurnalist feom kosovo made a comment years ago that predictions show that by 2025 the albanians will be a majority in macedonia & they will link with kosovo.

[The LION will ROAR]

Originally Posted by George S.

Just like the greek megali idea the albanians want a greater albania.Seeing how they got kosovo well they want to take over macedonia.One newspaper jurnalist feom kosovo made a comment years ago that predictions show that by 2025 the albanians will be a majority in macedonia & they will link with kosovo.

George Majority of Albanians in Macedonia do believe that they will link up with Kosovo, This is exactly what happen in Kosovo with the Serbs..
They breed like rabbits, over populate the area and build Mosques everywhere and then claim independents as Majority rule..
Same process is happening in Macedonia..
It would be easier to stop this now then later try to eradicate the Albanians or remove the Mosques..doing it later would just make us look worse.. The world would not understand the history and just look at us as the aggressors..
My Question, Is the Macedonian Government weak..? Or are they waiting for the right time..?

[julie]

LWR , the right time was at the time of the framework agreement, before the flag was enforced bratko. And yes, the government is pis weak.
We have state heritage buildings listed in South Australia. No one can build on any building without strict guidelines and building codes through the council municipalities. Seems a different kind of rules and regulations in Macedonia

[protivpropaganda]

Originally Posted by Jankovska

Firstly I would like you to explain to me why is it you think I live in Cowardlandia?

Lighten up, will ya. Can't you see that I was just having fun.
BTW, when you stop being so scared and telling others to be frightened because you are then, maybe then, you wouldn't be so uptight.
Also, why do you want an explanation from me when you do not want my advice?

Where are all the Macedonians? Also the Macedonians from Lipkovo, do you know where they are? They are still 'raseleni' they still live in a centre in Kumanovo with absolutley no one trying to help them. Have you heard of them, seen them, spoken to them? Have you seen how they live, what they eat? They have metal beds and a 4-5 member family live in one small room, that's the kitchen, the bathroom, the bedroom and the lounge.

The raseleni are there of their own accord. Houses were built for their return, special police protection was engaged and the EU guaranteed their safety.
They refused everything because they wanted to locate themselves somewhere else. There are also rumours that most of them sold their property to the shiptars.
Nothing in Macedonia is as it seems. Everything is very complicated.

To you it may just seem like a scare tactic to me it's a scary reality.

Why do I get a feeling that you didn't get it as you yoursef are under the influence of the scare and sell scheme.
Do reread my post more carefully and if you still don't get it ask instead of attacking.

As you have been in Tetovo not to long ago can you tell me how many Macedonian signs in the shops there are? Hardly few. Where are all the Macedonians from this towns, what happened to them? Have you asked yourself. It is a scary reality mate and it's is not just a tactic as you call it, they are taking everything and we should be scared ALOT but also should do something about it if it's not too late.

You are talking to a guy who, at the time of our fight for our independence, looked into the eyes of Yugoslavia's secret service agents and... Ran away.
I don't scare that easy.

Most of the Macedonians from Tetovo sold their property for a nice profit and bought houses or apartments in Gjorche Petrov and Karpos in Skopje.

As for the advice, please don't give me any coz you don't know me. I don't ever live in the darkness but I always live in reality. Maybe you should try it sometimes.

You'd be amazed what someone with the right knowledge can pick up just by reading what one says in a post.
You should be asking me for advice but you do not know me as yet.

As for alot you said I agree but I don't agree that it's just a tactic, it is reality and the more we allow it the worse for us.

Your reaction has given me proof that I did the right thing by explaining the scare and sell scheme.
Now, go back and reread my post and also you are welcome to read the whole site. If any questions arise do let me know and I will be glad to answer them.

Oh and one more question. Earlier you said be scared Macedonians coz you have no hands to fight but in your response to Julie you are saying it's better we didn't fight because it was a lost war. So which one is it, fight and lose or not even take a shot because it is a lost war anyway? So if we fight we are wrong if we don't wrong again.

We, as Macedonians don't start fights. WE FINNISH THEM.
Only fools fight when provoced by emotions.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Jankovska

Firstly I would like you to explain to me why is it you think I live in Cowardlandia?
I went through Arachinovo on the 4th of November, not even a month ago. As you have mentioned you've been too, now tell me what do the houses of the Macedonians look like? Where are all the Macedonians? Also the Macedonians from Lipkovo, do you know where they are? They are still 'raseleni' they still live in a centre in Kumanovo with absolutley no one trying to help them. Have you heard of them, seen them, spoken to them? Have you seen how they live, what they eat? They have metal beds and a 4-5 member family live in one small room, that's the kitchen, the bathroom, the bedroom and the lounge.To you it may just seem like a scare tactic to me it's a scary reality. As you have been in Tetovo not to long ago can you tell me how many Macedonian signs in the shops there are? Hardly few. Where are all the Macedonians from this towns, what happened to them? Have you asked yourself. It is a scary reality mate and it's is not just a tactic as you call it, they are taking everything and we should be scared ALOT but also should do something about it if it's not too late.
As for the advice, please don't give me any coz you don't know me. I don't ever live in the darkness but I always live in reality. Maybe you should try it sometimes.

As for alot you said I agree but I don't agree that it's just a tactic, it is reality and the more we allow it the worse for us.

Oh and one more question. Earlier you said be scared Macedonians coz you have no hands to fight but in your response to Julie you are saying it's better we didn't fight because it was a lost war. So which one is it, fight and lose or not even take a shot because it is a lost war anyway? So if we fight we are wrong if we don't wrong again.

Jankovska, you stick it to this character because I think it is very questionable whether he/she is at all related to the original PP, who was an articulate and ardent anti-Ramkovist back in 2001-3. Whilst it is possible for people to switch (flip-flop) in Macedonian politics (and we have lots of examples of that), I am at present thinking someone is playing mind games with the MTO, yet again.

[indigen]

Protivpropaganda #38

Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow the enforcement of the framework agreement?

PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.

Indigen: It is called CAPITULATION and TREASON and your apologist propaganda is reeking of a RAMKOVIST sales pitch! That means we have ourselves yet another SALESMAN for RAMKOVISM – RAMKOVIST AGENT OF PROPAGANDA! :-)

PP: At that time existed a dilemma for the political party in power. Does it engage in forced drafting of all male citizens and committing genocide upon the shiptars or accepting a mediated truce.

Indigen: Are you now trying to be an apologist for the BUGAROMAN and UCK COALITION “Government” that was about to fall towards the end of 2000? Why would they be committing genocide by driving out or eliminating a few hundred (or few thousand) foreign (and their local appendages) armed TERRORISTS? Is this not done by all sovereign states around the world and is it not what was required by the constitution?

PP: By accepting the second option many Macedonian lives were spared and our country remained intact.

Indigen: And they lost the title deeds to their country! It is easy to “save lives” when you give up what is yours without a fight. Macedonian is de-facto PARTITIONED and the PP back in 2001-3 acted as an ardent anti-Ramkovist (at least that is what I tremember him to be back then) and now appears to have switched sides and is spinning BS anti-Macedonian propaganda.

PP: If the first option was chosen we would have annihilated the shiptars but would have fought with the western powers stationed in Kosovo and would have paid the ultimate price.
Which would you have chosen if it were up to you?

Indigen: Pull the other one, Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist! In fact Macedonia was given a good chance to eliminate the TERRORISTS but they were inefficient in doing so. And how could a Bugaroman-UCK coalition Government be anything but inefficient in defending Macedonian national interest?

Julie: Why did Macedonians allow the change in the flag?
PP: We didn't allow it. It was early in our independence and the socialist scum in our society betrayed us.
Indigen: Perhaps they (SDSM and Co) voted for it in August of 1992 with a clear plan to give it away (and they were ready to do so in November of the same year) but DPMNE and DP opposition stopped them from doing it then. It was clearly (all but officially) given away in April of 1993 when no flag was raised at the UN and a “Temporary Reference” was accepted for “two months” only but it could not be officially legalised in the MK parliament due to DPMNE MP numbers and opposition. The final deed had to wait further political schemes and machinations before it was enacted in late 1995.

And this cheap “socialist scum” empty slogans of yours are really outdated , worn-out and sound so out of tune that I think you should avoid using them if you want to retain what little credibility you have considering that Petar Goshev, Stojan Andov, Vasil Tupurkovski, Dzingo, Slobodan Chasule and many others were at one time or another allies of the “right-wingers” (who themselves were led by the likes of Dosta Dimovska, a Marxist professor). And ALL of them together have had one main interest in coming to power – enrich themselves, their family members and friends and enjoy lording it over the ordinary people.


PP: While many accepted our flag as is there was a considerable number of idiots who didn't accept it.
Indigen: I am assuming here that you are talking about the original 1992 Flag with the 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol?

PP: The huge lie that it was temporary helped the cause of those that still felt that they didn't have anything in common with Macedonians but with slavs and serbs.
Indigen: The above is as clear as mud to me and hard to understand what it is you are trying to say.

Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow an Albanian criminal that headed terrorist groups in parliament (Ahmeti) ?

PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.
Indigen” Nobody can force you to sign away your title deeds to your country – WE WERE BETRAYED AND SOLD OUT!

PP: At the end of the conflict of low intensity in 2001 Ahmeti was known as a righteous freedom fighter all around the world. While we were known as the repressive majority.
Indigen: Blah, blah, blah....Excuses for CAPITULATION and TREASON and nothing more!

PP: Again the socialist scum in our society brokered it so.
Indigen: Again YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD and a stupid apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now. Did Gruevski (as government minister) not vote for the Ramkoven Dogovor, as did most of the DPMNE MPs back in 2001? Is Ivanov not a former socialist?

Julie: Why do MACEDONIANS continue to negotiate our name?

PP: Macedonians aren't negotiating their name. Our spineless politicians are doing it.

Indigen: And why do they keep voting for them then? Why do they not protest and force them to stop?

PP: It is amazing how sterile minds can conjure up so many filthy thoughts.
Indigen: It really is amazing what “sterile” minds (and opportunists bent on self-interest) can conjure up, is it not? :-)

PP: After I created the site Protivpropaganda I started to overtly propagate Euroscepticism in 2002.
Indigen: If I remember rightly (from Ajvar Forum days), PP was also an ardent anti-Ramkovist back then but this “PP” now, IMO, is playing the role of an APOLOGIST for the RAMKOVISTS and other VASSAL politicians and their anti-Macedonian deeds. What changed your views? And the PP site is (and has always been) decorated with Ventilator iconography to boot, which has always repulsed me ideologically.
.
PP: I was looked down upon even by the Macedonian individual who was drowned in propaganda that by entering the EU all of our problems would magically disappear.
Indigen: You are making a nonsensical point here because that is a logical outcome and is to be expected from an individual so affected. Why should it surprise you or anyone else that they would feel that way?

PP: Again the leftist scum of our nation forced this policy into active political life where if anybody spoke against the EU was branded a traitor. Even though EU-scepticism today plays a major role in political life nobody is willing to say it out loud as of yet but give it time, it will happen.

Indigen: Are, in your view, all “leftists” scum and all “rightists” (right-wing politicians/activists) angels? Do you think such simpleton generalisations hold any traction outside the knuckle-heads who sling such ridiculous slogans and their equally politically stupid followers in Mk? IMO, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a “leftist” and a “rightist” politicians in MK as they all are VASSAL looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the common man and Macedonian national sovereignty.


Julie: Why do Macedonians insist on giving up everything in the 21st century just to gain entry into EU (who will give Macedonia a lovely debt to pay off Greece debt ??

PP: We are not giving up anything, let alone everything.
Indigen: This has to be the most RIDICULOUS statement ever!

PP: We had very little on the day of our independence and built ourselves up to almost looking like a prosperous nation.
Indigen: What we are looking like is A NATIONAL LAB RAT IN THE DECONSTRUCTION ROOM undergoing major surgical national modifications and coming out after each operation looking more and more nationally and ethnically disfigured. When all these national and identity IC laboratory experiments are finished, I am afraid Macedonia and Macedonians will not exist as a recognised and recognisable form (entity) for others to see.

PP: The political party in power isn't all that interested in selling out since EU-scepticism is on the rise
Indigen: You could have fooled me and many others! :-)

PP: but again the leftist scum use this as their political propaganda platform and slur everything in our state to anybody willing to listen.
Indigen: Right, are you saying that it is all the fault of SDSM and Co and DPMNE are the “patriotic” angels!? :-)


OziMak: That says a lot about us as a nation.

Indigen: It is not anything genetic about our nation that prevents it from having a fighting spirit but rather it is because those that have ruled over them since 1945 have instilled and enforced a substandard (anti) national feeling in the Macedonia nation and thus fighting spirit is weak.


OM: Right now anything we do to thwart their advancements jeopardises us to an unaccepted level. The moment they lose the support of the western powers is the moment for payback.

Indigen: Another stupid VASSAL-minded illogical conclusion.


PP: I personally still hold the view that the government will not change the name despite their political doublespeak

Indigen: I really don't give a shit what you think but stop spreading your worthless BS because there might still be some misguided and uninformed individuals who buy into your absurdities.


Jankovska: Scare tactic? When was the last time you went to Kumanovo, Skopje, don't get me started on Tetovo, Gostivar, Kicevo? You should be scared and every Macedonian should be scared. In Tetovo and Gostivar you cannot find a sign written in Macedonian. Have you passed through Arachinovo? I have no idea what world you live in.

PP: You may not know what world I live in but I know what world you live in. The name of that world is Cowardlandia.
Indigen: I wonder how you would view things if you and your family lived there in Arachinovo? Why don't you buy one of those housed from Tetovo Macedonians and lead us by example of how easy and safe it is living under UCK rule?

PP: BTW, I went window shopping for furniture in Arachinovo just 2 months ago. Last week I went to Tetovo to buy used spare parts for my car and low and behold I’m still alive.
Indigen: I am assuming that you must now be employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA” and you are no longer “protiv”(anything by) them but PROTIV the Macedonian activists, it would seem! :-)

PP: Here's some well intentioned advice for you:
If you find yourself surrounded in darkness all you need to do is to light a candle.
Indigen: Your are a beacon of shining ideological light, there is no doubt about that and your advice would be most appropriate to try if you are in enemy territory (at night) and they are looking to hunt you down.

[Bratot]

Originally Posted by indigen

Jankovska, you stick it to this character because I think it is very questionable whether he/she is at all related to the original PP, who was an articulate and ardent anti-Ramkovist back in 2001-3. Whilst it is possible for people to switch (flip-flop) in Macedonian politics (and we have lots of examples of that), I am at present thinking someone is playing mind games with the MTO, yet again.

Lets ban him, what do you say?

And let you be the only one that write on this forum. (maybe a few others if you recognize their right to repeat after you)

It is questionable how you give conclussion out of hand without even having a clue on the person you refer in the post.

I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.

Originally Posted by indigen

Indigen: It is called CAPITULATION and TREASON and your apologist propaganda is reeking of a RAMKOVIST sales pitch! That means we have ourselves yet another SALESMAN for RAMKOVISM – RAMKOVIST AGENT OF PROPAGANDA! :-)

Indigen: Are you now trying to be an apologist for the BUGAROMAN and UCK COALITION “Government” that was about to fall towards the end of 2000? Why would they be committing genocide by driving out or eliminating a few hundred (or few thousand) foreign (and their local appendages) armed TERRORISTS? Is this not done by all sovereign states around the world and is it not what was required by the constitution?

Indigen: And they lost the title deeds to their country! It is easy to “save lives” when you give up what is yours without a fight. Macedonian is de-facto PARTITIONED and the real PP back in 2001-3 acted as an ardent anti-Ramkovist (at least that is what I tremember him to be back then) and now appears to have switched sides and is spinning BS anti-Macedonian propaganda. Or maybe you are NOT the same person at all and are just some mischieous character with maliscous intent using an existing alias identity!?

Indigen: Pull the other one, Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist! In fact Macedonia was given a good chance to eliminate the TERRORISTS but they were inefficient in doing so. And how could a Bugaroman-UCK coalition Government be anything but inefficient in defending Macedonian national interest?

Indigen: Perhaps they (SDSM and Co) voted for it in August of 1992 with a clear plan to give it away (and they were ready to do so in November of the same year) but DPMNE and DP opposition stopped them from doing it then. It was clearly (all but officially) given away in April of 1993 when no flag was raised at the UN and a “Temporary Reference” was accepted for “two months” only but it could not be officially legalised in the MK parliament due to DPMNE MP numbers and opposition. The final deed had to wait further political schemes and machinations before it was enacted in late 1995.

And this cheap “socialist scum” empty slogans of yours are really outdated , worn-out and sound so out of tune that I think you should avoid using them if you want to retain what little credibility you have considering that Petar Goshev, Stojan Andov, Vasil Tupurkovski, Dzingo, Slobodan Chasule and many others were at one time or another allies of the “right-wingers” (who themselves were led by the likes of Dosta Dimovska, a Marxist professor). And ALL of them together have had one main interest in coming to power – enrich themselves, their family members and friends and enjoy lording it over the ordinary people.

Indigen: I am assuming here that you are talking about the original 1992 Flag with the 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol?

Indigen: The above is as clear as mud to me and hard to understand what it is you are trying to say.

Indigen” Nobody can force you to sign away your title deeds to your country – WE WERE BETRAYED AND SOLD OUT!

Indigen: Blah, blah, blah....Excuses for CAPITULATION and TREASON and nothing more!

Indigen: Again YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD and a stupid apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now. Did Gruevski (as government minister) not vote for the Ramkoven Dogovor, as did most of the DPMNE MPs back in 2001? Is Ivanov not a former socialist?

Indigen: And why do they keep voting for them then? Why do they not protest and force them to stop?

Indigen: It really is amazing what “sterile” minds (and opportunists bent on self-interest) can conjure up, is it not? :-)

Indigen: If I remember rightly (from Ajvar Forum days), PP was also an ardent anti-Ramkovist back then but this “PP” now, IMO, is playing the role of an APOLOGIST for the RAMKOVISTS and other VASSAL politicians and their anti-Macedonian deeds. What changed your views? And the PP site is (and has always been) decorated with Ventilator iconography to boot, which has (and will) always repulse me ideologically..

Indigen: You are making a nonsensical point here because that is a logical outcome and is to be expected from an individual so affected. Why should it surprise you or anyone else that they would feel that way?

Indigen: Are, in your view, all “leftists” scum and all “rightists” (right-wing politicians/activists) angels? Do you think such simpleton generalisations hold any traction outside the knuckle-heads who sling such ridiculous slogans and their equally politically stupid followers in Mk? IMO, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a “leftist” and a “rightist” politicians in MK as they all are VASSAL looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the common man and Macedonian national sovereignty.

Indigen: This has to be the most RIDICULOUS statement ever!

Indigen: What we are looking like is A NATIONAL LAB RAT IN THE DECONSTRUCTION ROOM undergoing major surgical national modifications and coming out after each operation looking more and more nationally and ethnically disfigured. When all these national and identity IC laboratory experiments are finished, I am afraid Macedonia and Macedonians will not exist as a recognised and recognisable form (entity) for others to see.

Indigen: You could have fooled me and many others! :-)

Indigen: Right, are you saying that it is all the fault of SDSM and Co and DPMNE are the “patriotic” angels!? :-)

Indigen: It is not anything genetic about our nation that prevents it from having a fighting spirit but rather it is because those that have ruled over them since 1945 have instilled and enforced a substandard (anti) national feeling in the Macedonia nation and thus fighting spirit is weak.

Indigen: Another stupid VASSAL-minded illogical conclusion.

Indigen: I really don't give a shit what you think but stop spreading your worthless BS because there might still be some misguided and uninformed individuals who buy into your absurdities.
Indigen: I wonder how you would view things if you and your family lived there in Arachinovo? Why don't you buy one of those housed from Tetovo Macedonians and lead us by example of how easy and safe it is living under UCK rule?

Indigen: I am assuming that you must now be employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA” and you are no longer “protiv”(anything by) them but PROTIV the Macedonian activists, it would seem! :-)

Indigen: Your are a beacon of shining ideological light, there is no doubt about that and your advice would be most appropriate to try if you are in enemy territory (at night) and they are looking to hunt you down.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Bratot

Lets ban him, what do you say?

And let you be the only one that write on this forum. (maybe a few others if you recognize their right to repeat after you)

It is not for me to decide but if I was working on collecting people of a similar ideological persuasion to attain a goal, I certainly would be giving less opportunities to my ideological enemies to be using my resources to spread their propaganda. That would include Grks, Bulgars, Serbs, Ghegs and any of their apologists for starters.

It is questionable how you give conclussion out of hand without even having a clue on the person you refer in the post.

Well, I was a regular on Ajvar forums back then and I am pretty sure PP was an anti-Ramkovist.

I will gladly wait for PP's reply on your insinuations.

Another Ramkovist apologist is always welcome by you, Batka! :-)

How do you know I don't have a clue how the old PP presented himself politically?