Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Niko777]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

This isn't so either. The Abecedar agreement (there are many threads about it) used terms as "Slavophone Greeks" and "Macedonian dialect".

He wasn't referring to the Abecedar. He was referring to the 1921 Greek census, of which the results for northern Greece are still being withheld by the Greek government to this day.

[Risto the Great]

At least in the Ottoman empire, selling your identity immediately paid off somewhat. You would instantly have the right to bear arms and your voice in courts and every level of social strata meant something.

The Turncoatadonians of nowadays are willing to give up their identity for far less.

I will remind them often if they choose the path of colourful revolutions.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Even if Russia creates "mischief" to halt Macedonia's direction towards NATO, how is that different to what the U.S. and EU are doing by essentially coercing Macedonia towards national suicide?

Back to speaking of the kind of pie in your face obvious shit that doesn’t seem to register at all to these self righteous pricks, it seems that even mainstream western media outlets are oblivious to the hypocracy contained in the their very own same articles, as you will find each one of the following publications containing an example of this obvious contradiction:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1LX0ER

U.S. Defense Secretary warns of Russian meddling in Macedonia referendum

SKOPJE (Reuters) - U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis accused Russia on Monday of attempting to influence the outcome of a referendum in Macedonia on changing the country’s name that would open the way for it to join NATO and the European Union

Speaking after talks in Skopje with Macedonia’s leaders, Mattis also said the United States was looking to expand cybersecurity cooperation with the small Balkan country.

Macedonians will vote on Sept. 30 on a deal reached in June with neighboring Greece that would change the country’s name to the Republic of Northern Macedonia. Athens insisted on the change in return for lifting its opposition to Skopje joining NATO and the EU.

“We do not want to see Russia doing there (in Macedonia) what they have tried to do in so many other countries,” Mattis told reporters traveling with him to Skopje, apparently referring to Washington’s concerns about Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and other polls.

“No doubt that they have transferred money and they are also conducting broader influence campaigns,” Mattis said, adding it was unclear how effective Moscow’s efforts had been.

Russia denies the charges of meddling but strongly opposes Macedonia’s plan to join NATO. Its ambassador in Skopje has said the country could become “a legitimate target” if relations between Russia and NATO deteriorate further.

In July, Greece expelled two Russian diplomats and barred two other people from entering the country for trying to bribe officials and foment demonstrations to thwart the deal with Macedonia.

Russia denied Athens’s allegations and responded in kind by expelling Greek diplomats.

“MALICIOUS CYBER ACTIVITY”

Mattis is the latest in a string of Western leaders, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel, to visit Macedonia and urge its citizens to back the name deal.

“... we plan to expand our cybersecurity cooperation to thwart malicious cyber activity that threatens both our democracies,” Mattis said, with Macedonia’s prime minister and defense minister standing next to him.

Mattis also met Macedonia’s President Gjorge Ivanov, who opposes the name deal.

NATO has invited Macedonia to begin accession talks with the alliance, but says it must first change its constitution and adopt the new name. The EU has also said it would set a date for Macedonian accession talks pending implementation of the deal.

Recent opinion polls suggest a majority of Macedonians will support the name deal, though nationalists oppose it. Several thousand Macedonians rallied on Sunday in Skopje in support of the deal and of NATO and EU membership.

“There is no alternative for the Republic of Macedonia then integration into NATO and EU,” Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said on Monday, standing beside Mattis.

Washington is concerned that Russia is sowing disinformation with the aim of suppressing voter turnout in the referendum and creating an impression that the United States is not committed to the region.

“Our approach to disinformation is not to try to counter every single argument... We show by our senior-level visits, our presence, we show by highlighting our cooperative activities,” Laura Cooper, deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia, told reporters before the Mattis trip.

The United States spends nearly $5 million a year in security assistance for Macedonia and since 1991 has provided about $750 million in total assistance. Macedonia has a few dozen troops in Afghanistan as part of the NATO-led mission.

U.S. officials believe Russia accelerated its disinformation campaign in southeast Europe in 2014, the same year it annexed Crimea from Ukraine.

“What is in some ways frustrating and maddening about it is, it is so cheap, what they are doing, and it is so effective,” said Heather Conley, director of the Europe program at the CSIS think tank in Washington.

“This requires sustained American and European engagement, it (southeast Europe) is a pretty fragile place.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-war...bid-1537204249

U.S. Warns of Russian Interference in Macedonia’s NATO Bid

https://www.ft.com/content/8231e83a-...2-17176fbf93f5

Jim Mattis urges ‘yes’ vote in Macedonia name-change referendum

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...b33240f2d74321

US warns of Russian meddling in Macedonia

[VMRO]

Yet to see any evidence of Russian meddling in Macedonia's referendum.

There is without a doubt US meddling, but that's ok i guess.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Yet to see any evidence of Russian meddling in Macedonia's referendum.

There is without a doubt US meddling, but that's ok i guess.

Well when the agreement you’re campaigning to implement falsely claims that we ethnically identify solely as Russian gypsies, I guess references to “Russian” meddling would be seen to technically encompass all Macedonians within that designation as well...

So I guess the US are there to try and stop Macedonians meddling with their own referendum?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Yet to see any evidence of Russian meddling in Macedonia's referendum.

There is without a doubt US meddling, but that's ok i guess.

Be careful when you state the bleeding obvious around here...you'll offend our US readership, that is, unless you can provide 'evidence' for your rabid anti-USism (or more to the point - lucidity)...

[Gocka]

I wouldn't say the USA is meddling per say. They aren't hiding their desire for the referendum to succeed and for Macedonia to join NATO. They have publicly and openly expressed those desires. There is nothing on their part going on behind the scenes to push this over the line, mostly because there is no need for it.

Russia hasn't done much either except try to finance some of their own resistance movements, mainly that of Bachev, and the occasional online crap that they engage in.

The position of both sides is plainly clear. If you guys got more directly involved you would see that both sides ability to significantly impact anything is very small. We are doing a bang up job of fucking this up with out any outside help.

Is that what you guys are going to say come October 1st? That this succeeded because of the Americans?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Gocka

...Is that what you guys are going to say come October 1st? That this succeeded because of the Americans?

I will say that it succeeded largely because of the inherent stupidity of the Macedonians themselves but I will also acknowledge the great lengths that the USA went to in order to ensure said victory.

I still find it unusual that you (and others) don't find it strange that a procession of US officials (and those of their western partners) are making a bee line for Skopje in the lead up to the vote, I think its interesting almost bewildering that you (and others) don't see this as a form of coercion at best and a complete meddling in the affairs of a sovereign (for want of a better word) state at worst.

[Gocka]

I don't find it strange because this is common practice and there is nothing covert or even dishonest about it. Coercion requires an unwillingness on the part of the other party. Who is being coerced? The certainly not the Zaev government, who wants this succeed just as much as the Americans do. The Macedonian people aren't being coerced either, at least not by the Americans, but frankly not even by their own government. By all accounts it seems a majority of the country is for the name change. So if anything the Americans can say they are on the side of democracy no?

I know its hard for us to fathom that even a single Macedonian could willingly be for this, but the reality is that a probably majority are for this. Zaev and his supporters aren't being coerced, they really believe in this bullshit. So to look at any outside party and claim they had a significant hand in this, is not honest.

What is so bewildering about the USA wanting Macedonia to be part of NATO, the Macedonian government wanting to be part of NATO, a probable majority of the Macedonian people wanting to be part of NATO and then the American government helping in the PR campaign to make it a reality?

Can we really blame the Americans for looking after their interests? Isn't the blame on the group of people who decided that this was a good idea? I've yet to see a Macedonian with a gun to their head over this.

If Macedonia were a wealthier and more powerful country, wouldn't we want Macedonia to lobby on behalf of Macedonian minorities in neighboring countries? Would we be upset if Macedonia "meddled" in Greek or Bulgarian elections or politics to the benefit of Macedonians? Doesn't Bulgaria directly fund and support pro Bulgarian elements within Macedonia? Isn't Russia hoping to derail the referendum on behalf of her own interests of splitting NATO apart? Russia's interests might align with ours on this matter, but isn't what they are doing meddling just the same? The fact that we are weak and useless and incapable of an influence doesn't mean we wouldn't if we could.

The simple fact remains that all of those things are background noise, and exist in every country in the world. In the end if the will of the people is set on something, there is nothing outside parties can do. To be honest nothing dramatic is going on, neither from the Russians or the Americans, that goes to show how much either party really gives a shit.

It hurts to admit, but we are acting like the fake made up ethnic group that our enemies have always claimed we are. I can put you in contact with leaders of Bojkaitram, UMD, Mladi za Makednonija, and you can make your own judgment about how much impact the Americans are having and how much of it is the willingness of actual Macedonians to go through with this and the ineptitude of the rest to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I still find it unusual that you (and others) don't find it strange that a procession of US officials (and those of their western partners) are making a bee line for Skopje in the lead up to the vote, I think its interesting almost bewildering that you (and others) don't see this as a form of coercion at best and a complete meddling in the affairs of a sovereign (for want of a better word) state at worst.

[Rogi]

I don't buy into this notion that a majority of the Macedonians are for this. Especially not when the biggest gathering that could be mustered up by the "Za" camp was 10,000 people, from across all of Macedonia, 7,000 of whom were not ethnic Macedonians and of the few Macedonians who went, some did so for the free bus ride and feed.

I can't see it getting anywhere near 900k turning up to vote on the day.