Macedonia region census early 1900s

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Redsun

What a sob story, such a petty low deceitful attempt for some form of sympathy. Have you no shame?

I doubt it. He comes to a Macedonian forum, negates the Macedonian identity then tries to paint himself as the victim when he is pulled up on his attitude. Funny, sad, stupid.

Originally Posted by Karposh

However, with a smirk on his face, he told me that he refuses to speak Greek whenever he has dealings with the Salonika businessmen and always speaks to them in Macedonian. They all understand it he told me but the Grkomani refuse to answer back in Macedonian. And, as I witnessed for myself, to my absolute surprise, they did indeed understand everything he said to them.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...977+macedonian

Alevropoulos's American and Italian blue jeans go for $33 a pair. They come in all shapes and sizes, as do his Yugoslav buyers. A sign in his window announces that Macedonian, the language of Yugoslavia's southermost republic, is spoken. The language is now a requirement for all of his clerks. In the large department stores of Glaoudatos and Dimitriadis, price tags are in both Greek drachmas and Yugoslav dinars. Clerks speaking Macedonian are given preference in hiring. Some shops advertise a 10 per cent discount for the free-spending Yugoslavs.

The above is from a Washington Post article published in 1977.

Originally Posted by Poligiros

I am asking for factual evidence in discussions. I am not playing any "games".

You're ignoring valid comparisons that contest your preconceived notions. You've been doing this continually. Therefore, you are playing games here. The charade will end shortly in one of three ways: you smarten up, you leave, or I send you packing. I am giving you one last chance to become relevant.

You are stating that Hellenes have a large Slavic historical component, more than the Republic of Macedonia.

You're confused. I never made such a statement.

Using language as an identifier, logically Slavic invasions were a small minority and absorbed by the Greek majority of the day.

Using language as the sole criteria is unscientific. Ignoring the associated historical complexities of this sole criteria is ignorance.

You are suggesting modern Macedonian people aren't Slavic (or even less so than the modern Greeks), however its blatantly obvious they adopted a South-Slavic language and culture somewhere down the line?

There is no such thing as a single "Slavic culture". The Macedonians, whether they are in Skopje, Bitola, Strumica, Voden, Kostur, etc have a largely Balkan culture which shares more similarities with other Balkan cultures than it does with Russian or Polish culture. To suggest otherwise would be total idiocy.

Please don't give me examples of the Irish Celtics and the English, as DNA suggests they are a very similar people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/sc...rits.html?_r=0

Was that the first hit you found on Google when you searched "Celts, English, DNA"? In future, you might want to actually read through the whole article first before you decide to wield it here like it somehow corroborates your point of view. Aside from citing the thoughts of various people, much of that article actually goes against the point you're trying to make.

I am asking for the factual evidence or reputable evidence of the historical time period and the process that enabled this to occur?

You are cunningly formulating your questions in a manner that makes it difficult for our side to answer in a definitive way, because you ask for specifics during a time that has been characterised by scholars as the 'Dark Ages' and where there are several conflicting or ambiguous sources of information regarding events during that period. That needs to stop. Do you have the capacity to approach this topic from an objective stance and behave accordingly? If so, then I am prepared to further engage in this discussion (I suggest you give your two-cent input on other discussions a bit of a rest). If not, then you know the options.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Karposh

I think the Greek members of this forum will be particularly interested in my following observation regarding Greek-Macedonian relations, particularly in Greece today. I’d love to hear your comments on this as I really do believe it is the case.

I was holidaying in Macedonia during 2005 and I spent about 2 weeks visiting relatives in Gevgelija, in the far south-east of the republic. Most of my family is from Bitola but I have cousins in Gevgelija (through marriage) and a pleasant consequence of this is that I got my first real opportunity to visit Salonika (besides using it as a transit point to get to RoM) which is less than an hour’s drive away from this tiny border town.

Whenever they need something which they can’t find in Gevgelija, most of its inhabitants simply pop over the border to Salonika to find what they need. On this occasion, my cousin needed some parts for his car so he took me along for the ride. He has a basic command of Greek (not unusual in Gevgelija) and could get by if he had to use it.

However, with a smirk on his face, he told me that he refuses to speak Greek whenever he has dealings with the Salonika businessmen and always speaks to them in Macedonian. They all understand it he told me but the Grkomani refuse to answer back in Macedonian. And, as I witnessed for myself, to my absolute surprise, they did indeed understand everything he said to them. No pleasantries were ever exchanged. It was purely business and most refused to answer him back but, ironically, there was never any miscommunication and they always brought out the requested part.

From memory, we went to about 3-4 automotive/spare parts shops, an office building (can’t remember exactly what the purpose for that one was) and a Gyros food stall…BTW, best lamb gyros I’ve ever had, which was washed down with a Heineken while overlooking the bay of Salonika. There was the occasional “Nema” & “Nemame” but most served us without saying a word, careful (or reluctant) to answer us back in Macedonian.

I was stunned and asked my cousin if it was hit and miss whether people understood what he was saying or not and he replied that in fact he’s had a 100% strike rate and that everyone understood him in Salonika, even if most refused to answer him back. Even now, 10 years later, I still find this hard to believe. I keep reasoning to myself that perhaps, being shrewd businessmen, Greeks were becoming more pragmatic and learning some basic Macedonian to better deal with their customers from across the border that often frequent their businesses. Adopting a more sensible approach in dealing with the Skopjans makes good business sense I suppose.

So, what I think is going on is that, officially there is a lot of posturing and pig-headedness where neither side wants to lose face by backing down on the Macedonian issue. Unofficially, if my day out in Salonika is anything to go by, people are cooperating and learning to deal with each other in a civil and respectful way. Politics takes a back seat in favour of good business practices.

I couldn’t tell you for certain what ethnicity the people that served us were. They could all well have been Macedonians. Maybe some were Macedonians and others were Greeks, with some understanding of Macedonian. Or, maybe they were all Greeks who happened to pick up some basic Macedonian along the way from their mixed villages back in Lerin, Voden or Kostur, I don’t know. What I do know is that I felt as home in Salonika that day as I do whenever I am in Bitola.

I think you've just summed up the general instincts of grkomani all over the world, when confronted with a Macedonian speaker.
The hapless and self loathing grkoman lives in perpetual fear, that he will be exposed as something other than being a good and obedient 'greek'.

The grkoman takes this fear with him to the grave.
It's not just a phenomenon confined to those infernal Macedonians that we call 'grkomani'...this self loathing extends to every ethnic group in modern Greece today...even our 'greek' members, 'Amphipolis' and the equally racist 'Poligiros', if they could be honest with themselves about their heritage and the history of the modern greek state they could regale us with similar stories from their own Turkish, Albanian, Vlah or Rom backgrounds.

[Amphipolis]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It's not just a phenomenon confined to those infernal Macedonians that we call 'grkomani'...this self loathing extends to every ethnic group in modern Greece today...even our 'greek' members, 'Amphipolis' and the equally racist 'Poligiros', if they could be honest with themselves about their heritage and the history of the modern greek state they could regale us with similar stories from their own Turkish, Albanian, Vlah or Rom backgrounds.

I have been asked many times of my background and I don't have any of the above in my recent KNOWN past. I have 1/4 ancestry from Asia Minor Coast. My people were Greek speakers but there were also other Turkophones in their neighboring settlements and everywhere in Thessaloniki.

I have never known any Arvanite or Gypsy because the former are rare in Macedonia and the latter don't associate with us. I have met Vlachs which are also rare, on the contrary the city is full of Pontic people. I have also met recent Albanian, Soviet immigrants. There are many unexpected categories in the newcomers, e.g. Turkophone Pontics from Ukraine.

Since I often ask people of their ancestry, various cases of mixed ancestry are also very common in the city.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Amphipolis

...Since I often ask people of their ancestry, various cases of mixed ancestry are also very common in the city.

I have absolutely no doubt that cases of mixed ancestry are common in every corner of modern greece.