Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3812

    Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... stereotype

    Macedonia and Greece live up to Balkan stereotype
    The Greek and Macedonian governments are absurdly mired in backward-looking defensiveness over their country's identities

    by Ivo Petkovski
    Friday 25 June 2010 15.00 BST

    As any fan of Asterix the Gaul can confirm, national stereotypes are funny because they tend to carry a grain of truth. They give us a broad caricature of a people and their quirks, and also, crucially, how those people are perceived from the outside. Asterix is yet to travel to the Balkans, but when he does, he is sure to find the locals embroiled in inexplicable, intractable feuds based on absurd disagreements rooted in the distant past. This stereotype is often unfairly applied, but – like all stereotypes – it's sometimes roundly deserved. The Greece/Macedonia naming dispute falls squarely in the latter category.

    The latest instalment in this 19-year-old tale of woe unfolded last week, when, despite pressure from various MEPs, the Greek prime minister, George Papandreou, and his Macedonian counterpart, Nikola Gruevski, failed to reach an agreement ahead of a European Council meeting on the 17 June. The likely result, predictably, will be another Greek veto of the motion to provide Macedonia with a date to begin EU accession talks. Some insiders claim that a mutually acceptable agreement on the name now seems more distant than ever.

    Accession to the EU would be an immeasurable help to Macedonia – aside from the sorely needed economic benefits – governing parties would be forced to comply with EU standards in dealing with the sizeable Albanian minority and the long-oppressed Roma population. It would also put an end to the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state, which will, in turn, hopefully quell some of the ultra-nationalistic sentiment that occasionally erupts. It would also be a big step forward in establishing stability in the wider Balkan region.

    Greek concerns over Macedonian expansionist ambitions – over the region of northern Greece also known as Macedonia – are an obvious red herring. Even if we put aside the fact that the tiny Macedonian army could barely make Athens flinch, there is no conceivable future where Macedonia could garner international support to invade an EU member state. Fears over irredentism are a diversionary tactic – the argument here is really about history and symbolism.

    In 2003, David Cameron and I both paid a visit to Skopje to attend an England v Macedonia football match (separately, I'll hasten to add), and unlike me, he wrote a piece in the Guardian about it on his return. In it, he recalls being asked by unnamed Macedonians: "What will you do to help us?". His answer was ready: "From now on I will call our esteemed EU partner "the former Ottoman possession of Greece (Fopog)."

    Of course he won't do that, and he'll be hoping that the Greek government never read his flippant remark. However, Cameron does put his finger on something quite significant with that statement. The "Greek pettiness" that Cameron disapprovingly notes stems from a deep insecurity over Greece's 400-year subjugation by the Ottomans, during which time, Greece, like the rest of the Ottoman lands, was generally referred to in the west as "Turkey in Europe". When Greece won its independence in the 19th century, there was a concerted effort to reconnect the new Greek identity with the fabled Greece of antiquity.

    This insecurity over heritage initially drove Greek opposition to Macedonia's constitutional name – now it's a bitter slog to wrestle at least some face-saving concessions from the whole mess, as the key argument was lost years ago. Whichever way it plays out, Macedonia will not only feature in the republic's name, but it will be the key signifier. That's exactly what Greece wanted to avoid, but they found their position became unsustainable back in 1995 – now the argument centres on whether a compromise name, such as the Republic of Northern Macedonia, if agreed, would have to be used by everyone or just by those states who are yet to recognise Macedonia's constitutional name – 39% of Nato members.

    For its part, Macedonia, under the nationalist VMRO-DPMNE government, have embarked on a misguided project of "antiquisation", or the deliberate appropriation of ancient Macedonian figures and symbols as the foundation of the modern Macedonian identity. To this end, Skopje's Petrovec airport was renamed Alexander the Great airport in 2006. A plan has long been mooted to build a 40m Alexander statue in Skopje's main public square, which would be a disaster in both aesthetic and diplomatic terms.

    Like Greece, Macedonia's frantic embrace of all things classical is driven by defensiveness over their identity. Unlike Greece, VMRO doesn't have the nous to realise how absurd all this looks to international observers, so they haven't thought up a fig leaf for their irrational hysteria – like the "irredentism concerns" Athens uses. Each new Alexander statue in Skopje or Prilep sends faces into palms in Brussels, and makes a resolution to the dispute that bit more unreachable. Realistically, Macedonia doesn't need any antiquisation. The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.

    The Macedonians of antiquity were Greek in the same sense that the Caesars were Italian – sort of, but not really. Alexander was in fact Macedonian, in a sense of that word that's long dead. He has as much continuity with Papandreou and Gruevski as Cameron has with whoever built Stonehenge. Greece and Macedonia both need to break out of the Balkan stereotype – history should be left to historians, and current realities to politicians.
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3812

    #2
    This anglopredavnik piece of trash is pushing the EU agenda trying to make it seem like Macedonia wil be Ostracized if it doesn't join NATO and the EU. Read between the false 'antiquisation' angle and this is what this mut is really pushing;

    The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.
    Easy to concede when you live in another country you f@%king animal. Like I said elsewhere; It must be said and now it must be made relevantly clear. Macedonians need to avoid organizations and groups pushing to get Macedonia into NATO or the EU. Obviously our identity means nothing to these types of people. These racist organizations want nothing more than to change Macedonia's name and identity in order to add another irrelevant member to their sorrowful clubs.
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #3
      The whole article is a joke, wouldn't know where to start, Ivo you're a very confused and compromised individual. And an imbecile.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Phoenix
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 4671

        #4
        Please correct me if i'm wrong but I think this Petkovski imbecile has written similar pieces before...
        His "antiquisation" argument is straight out of the Greek handbook of denying Macedonians any historical legacy and identity itself. Macedonia has an enviable place at the cross roads of European and Asian civilization which can't be surgically removed or emotionally detached to suit the agendas of our enemies and the subservients like petkovski.

        Sadly the article is overloaded with the same red herrings that petkovski accuses greece of harbouring and considering petkovski's own background in financial services if find his parting comment that "history should be left to historians and current realities to politicians" a bit rich but mostly hypocritical.

        Comment

        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3812

          #5
          Phoenix I think we need to look past that rubbish for what he is actually stating which is this;

          The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • fyrOM
            Banned
            • Feb 2010
            • 2180

            #6
            I couldn’t agree and disagree with you more TrueMacedonian. I cannot believe he has trivialised the central point of this whole name issue. Are we Macedonians or not or are we a kind of Macedonian.

            He is so sly as to put forward a direct point followed by a well accepted belief albeit lie followed by an attempt to make it all sound irrelevant to both parties to emphasise his main point of how absurd continued lineage is and hence the absurdity of battleling forward to we are Macedonians when we have already won the position of we are a kind of Macedonian.

            The Macedonians of antiquity were Greek in the same sense that the Caesars were Italian – sort of, but not really. Alexander was in fact Macedonian, in a sense of that word that's long dead. He has as much continuity with Papandreou and Gruevski as Cameron has with whoever built Stonehenge.

            I know he is reversing the direction from present to past alluding that modern Italians are somehow more mixed lot over time then how mixed the Caesars were but actually Italians actually believe a connection to their roman pasts as does the rest of the world so to a casual reader it actually leaves with the opposite impression from the one he is supposedly trying to make. Ie the Romans were a unique lot whose dna is so diluted over time from people coming to Italy that the average Italian has the tiniest connection at best and probably none at all to the original Romans.

            Likewise he is saying today’s Greeks are so diluted as to hardly any connection if at all to the original Macedonians and then he tries to carry the point to today’s Macedonians and thereby the absurdity of RoM pushing for anything more than a kind of Macedonian. He then tries to seal the point by saying the historical people are dead in history and the modern people diluted to the nth degree at best if any should just get on with life. You have already won the point you might have some nth degree diluted part and hence are a kind of Macedonian. Being diluted do not be delusional too.

            The emphasis of the above point is against the Macedonians while mentioning briefly today’s Greeks are also diluted and not the ancient Greeks. This supposedly intellectual high ground does not address the fact that both Italians and Greeks lay claim to their respective forefathers and openly promote it as fact but somehow today’s Macedonians should make a clear break from their past.

            I think he is a person who has wholeheartedly and totally bought the Tito and Greek and world line today’s Macedonians are the Slav invaders trying to link themselves to the land and the history of the land the invaded and occupy.

            Comment

            • julie
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 3869

              #7
              Ivo Petkovski, another predavnik ,The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.

              prdedavnik di eden, call yourself what you want, you claim to speak of antiquitisation and history in your pro Greek kiss arse article, yet you are not a historian

              shut up
              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #8
                Ivo Petkovski - Traitor

                Ivo Petkovski: The Greek and Macedonian governments are absurdly mired in backward-looking defensiveness over their country's identities


                Macedonia and Greece live up to Balkan stereotype
                The Greek and Macedonian governments are absurdly mired in backward-looking defensiveness over their country's identities

                As any fan of Asterix the Gaul can confirm, national stereotypes are funny because they tend to carry a grain of truth. They give us a broad caricature of a people and their quirks, and also, crucially, how those people are perceived from the outside. Asterix is yet to travel to the Balkans, but when he does, he is sure to find the locals embroiled in inexplicable, intractable feuds based on absurd disagreements rooted in the distant past. This stereotype is often unfairly applied, but – like all stereotypes – it's sometimes roundly deserved. The Greece/Macedonia naming dispute falls squarely in the latter category.

                The latest instalment in this 19-year-old tale of woe unfolded last week, when, despite pressure from various MEPs, the Greek prime minister, George Papandreou, and his Macedonian counterpart, Nikola Gruevski, failed to reach an agreement ahead of a European Council meeting on the 17 June. The likely result, predictably, will be another Greek veto of the motion to provide Macedonia with a date to begin EU accession talks. Some insiders claim that a mutually acceptable agreement on the name now seems more distant than ever.

                Accession to the EU would be an immeasurable help to Macedonia – aside from the sorely needed economic benefits – governing parties would be forced to comply with EU standards in dealing with the sizeable Albanian minority and the long-oppressed Roma population. It would also put an end to the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state, which will, in turn, hopefully quell some of the ultra-nationalistic sentiment that occasionally erupts. It would also be a big step forward in establishing stability in the wider Balkan region.

                Greek concerns over Macedonian expansionist ambitions – over the region of northern Greece also known as Macedonia – are an obvious red herring. Even if we put aside the fact that the tiny Macedonian army could barely make Athens flinch, there is no conceivable future where Macedonia could garner international support to invade an EU member state. Fears over irredentism are a diversionary tactic – the argument here is really about history and symbolism.

                In 2003, David Cameron and I both paid a visit to Skopje to attend an England v Macedonia football match (separately, I'll hasten to add), and unlike me, he wrote a piece in the Guardian about it on his return. In it, he recalls being asked by unnamed Macedonians: "What will you do to help us?". His answer was ready: "From now on I will call our esteemed EU partner "the former Ottoman possession of Greece (Fopog)."

                Of course he won't do that, and he'll be hoping that the Greek government never read his flippant remark. However, Cameron does put his finger on something quite significant with that statement. The "Greek pettiness" that Cameron disapprovingly notes stems from a deep insecurity over Greece's 400-year subjugation by the Ottomans, during which time, Greece, like the rest of the Ottoman lands, was generally referred to in the west as "Turkey in Europe". When Greece won its independence in the 19th century, there was a concerted effort to reconnect the new Greek identity with the fabled Greece of antiquity.

                This insecurity over heritage initially drove Greek opposition to Macedonia's constitutional name – now it's a bitter slog to wrestle at least some face-saving concessions from the whole mess, as the key argument was lost years ago. Whichever way it plays out, Macedonia will not only feature in the republic's name, but it will be the key signifier. That's exactly what Greece wanted to avoid, but they found their position became unsustainable back in 1995 – now the argument centres on whether a compromise name, such as the Republic of Northern Macedonia, if agreed, would have to be used by everyone or just by those states who are yet to recognise Macedonia's constitutional name – 39% of Nato members.

                For its part, Macedonia, under the nationalist VMRO-DPMNE government, have embarked on a misguided project of "antiquisation", or the deliberate appropriation of ancient Macedonian figures and symbols as the foundation of the modern Macedonian identity. To this end, Skopje's Petrovec airport was renamed Alexander the Great airport in 2006. A plan has long been mooted to build a 40m Alexander statue in Skopje's main public square, which would be a disaster in both aesthetic and diplomatic terms.

                Like Greece, Macedonia's frantic embrace of all things classical is driven by defensiveness over their identity. Unlike Greece, VMRO doesn't have the nous to realise how absurd all this looks to international observers, so they haven't thought up a fig leaf for their irrational hysteria – like the "irredentism concerns" Athens uses. Each new Alexander statue in Skopje or Prilep sends faces into palms in Brussels, and makes a resolution to the dispute that bit more unreachable. Realistically, Macedonia doesn't need any antiquisation. The main argument has been won, and conceding "northern Macedonia" is a small price to pay to move forward.

                The Macedonians of antiquity were Greek in the same sense that the Caesars were Italian – sort of, but not really. Alexander was in fact Macedonian, in a sense of that word that's long dead. He has as much continuity with Papandreou and Gruevski as Cameron has with whoever built Stonehenge. Greece and Macedonia both need to break out of the Balkan stereotype – history should be left to historians, and current realities to politicians.
                Isn't he the voice of reason.
                What an intellectual midget.

                So many issues that are way off the mark. He really needs to learn about his people (whoever they are).
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Bratot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2855

                  #9
                  Do you want to confront him on this forum?
                  The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                    Do you want to confront him on this forum?
                    Absolutely. His attitude is demeaning to Macedonians.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Bratot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2855

                      #11
                      The invitation will be sent to him during this day (European time).
                      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                      Comment

                      • Frank
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 687

                        #12
                        It is his attidude and weak natured spinless poisition that is so bad to our cause

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #13
                          I hope he feels confident enough to be willing to enter into dialogue here. Because he simply will not have answers if the interests of Macedonia are in his heart.
                          Originally posted by John Peters aka Ivo Petkovski
                          Accession to the EU would be an immeasurable help to Macedonia – aside from the sorely needed economic benefits – governing parties would be forced to comply with EU standards in dealing with the sizeable Albanian minority and the long-oppressed Roma population. It would also put an end to the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state, which will, in turn, hopefully quell some of the ultra-nationalistic sentiment that occasionally erupts. It would also be a big step forward in establishing stability in the wider Balkan region.
                          Accession to the EU is absolutely measurable. Have a look at Bulgaria or Romania for the benefits you are espousing. Please explain the EU standards in detail as far as how they would apply to the ethnic Albanian minority and the Roma population. Feel free to tie these "standards" in with the Ohrid Framework agreement and corresponding Macedonian constitutional amendments. Let us know how the EU measures up in comparison.

                          What is the maddening uncertainty over Macedonia's official legitimacy as a state? It clearly is a State. But you appear to think calling it Republic of Northern Macedonia will fix this maddening uncertainty. How? Surely by making the name and identity of the State a negotiable term, you are helping to condemn your people to this madness.

                          Define the ultra-nationalistic sentiment please. What does it include and how does it compare with the efforts of Greece to date?

                          Take a moment to see what many Macedonians feel is an appropriate response to the EU's approach against Macedonia
                          The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia. We accept the prospect of EU membership has


                          Ivo, if you want to sound intelligent to the British people, why not change your name to "John Peters" for extra credibility. Selling us Macedonians out like this does not look good on you.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Jankovska
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1774

                            #14
                            This article is nothing but a small peace written by uninformed and uneducated fool who found himself in the right place at the right time to be writting crap and getting paid. Macedonia is and has always been Macedonia. The EU cannot and will not help Macedonia, it can bring the country to it's knees. Macedonia would not have problems with the Albanian minority if America and the EU don't get involved and spark something to gain something for themselves.
                            The Roma minority in Macedonia I agree is opressed but this will change. Hey what country is perfect? The UK isn't. My god Greece doesn't even admit they have minorities and look at them, they are in the EU. The Romas in bulgaria are treated worst than animals and hey Bulgaria is in the EU. SO Ivo, if you think you can talk about the stereotype of the Balkans you need to go live the Balkans. You talk about the EU as a saviour when the EU is the biggest joke of a union ever existed. You should try and stay away from publishing articles you haven't got a clue about.

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #15
                              The following message with the invitation link to this discussion was sent around 1 p.m. european time, lets see if we get any response.


                              Members of this forum www.macedoniantruth.org have expressed a great desire to confront with you in the discussion related to your articles for the Guardian. I hope you'll manage to meet our expectations and will provide specific answers to our questions.

                              I understand that you are busy, but hopefully will show up on the following topic:
                              http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... stereotype Macedonia and Greece live up to Balkan stereotype The Greek and Macedonian governments are absurdly mired in backward-looking defensiveness over their country's identities by Ivo Petkovski Friday 25 June 2010 15.00 BST As any fan of Asterix the Gaul can confirm,


                              Thanks in advance,
                              Mihail
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

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