Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

[Bill77]

I don't know SOM what concessions Greece has made at all. The word "Macedonia" was not a concession. Meaning they did not give in but it was forced upon them. So people should not assume or put Greece and generosity in a same sentence. If it was up to Greece they would cut off our tongues just for speaking the word "Macedonia".

Concession (politics): failure to challenge or cessation of challenging, as in "conceding an election" or "conceding a game".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concession

Greece have never failed to challenge the name Macedonia infact they still do. Now because of external pressures and the horse has bolted (more than 120 odd nations have recognised our Name) Greece's tactics are to lesson the blow by diluting our name and manipulate there loosing battle anyway they can. How is this conceding?

[julie]

IVO, welcome to the MTO, and I hope that you can understand how saddened and upset we are with the writings of one of our own brothers .
I had to read that piece of journalism you wrote twice. Because the first time I read it, I could not believe one of our own Macedonians would write anything so derogatory or insulting to his own people. The second time, I actually felt really sorry for you, because you are so misinformed
You are obviously not abreast with any matters Macedonian, nor do you know anything about the history of your bloodline, if indeed you are a Macedonian

The OHRID agreement was enforced and imposed upon us bratko.
Why do you believe we should change our name and our flag and further lose our identity?
You talk about unwilling to compromise? What is Greece giving up?
And just who do you think you are spouting justice in your words “shiptarite and cigannniiite” and calling us rascist here – when you have used rascist terms in that alone.
Why are you discounting the basic human rights for Aegean Macedonia, Pirin, and mala Prespa?
Just how much is a person willing to compromise his own identity and you must have been handsomely for your article, I am so ashamed for you. You, who is in a position to speak for your own blood, but would rather shy away from it.
To be partitioned by the likes of the Western world is bad enough, but when you have a fellow Macedonian advocating it, that is worse than a kick in the guts.
Money will not make you rich in life, that is not what you are going to be remembered for. You wont be remembered for the wealth you got paid to amass materialistc things in life for your writings. You will be remembered for your heart, and soul. You have neither.
Its never too late to redeem yourself, not for anyone else, but for your own salvation and soul brato.
Mnogu mi e stram za tebe, im bash mi e zhal kako mozhesh taka da si ja prodadish dushata.

[julie]

Vidi vidi, members of the MTO invite this individual Ivo for a discussion regarding his article, and what is the outcome? Bloody abuse by voshkari hiding behind pseudonyms, is this how you hypocrites behave in normal life? Invite someone over for a kafe and beat the living daylights out of ‘em? The Frank character should be banned for threatening to kill someone.

Boge, why dont you read the article Ivo wrote. Then you may understand why eveyone is so upset

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't know SOM what concessions Greece has made at all. The word "Macedonia" was not a concession. Meaning they did not give in but it was forced upon them. So people should not assume or put Greece and generosity in a same sentence. If it was up to Greece they would cut off our tongues just for speaking the word "Macedonia".

Concession (politics): failure to challenge or cessation of challenging, as in "conceding an election" or "conceding a game".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concession

Greece have never failed to challenge the name Macedonia infact they still do. Now because of external pressures and the horse has bolted (more than 120 odd nations have recognised our Name) Greece's tactics are to lesson the blow by diluting our name and manipulate there loosing battle anyway they can. How is this conceding?

Greece have made no concessions Bill, the Macedonian name and identity belongs to the Macedonian people. It is sad and disgusting to see apparent Macedonians ignorant of this fact.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Boge, do you also share the opinion of the individual you've jumped in to defend?

[Serdarot]

if he is real person, and not just some "alias"...

respect for the guts to respond here, i hope he will have the guts to face his own words, and the consequences that might come out of them.

or as the good old wisdom says:

think BEFORE you speak (or write)

... If any of you have ever set foot in Skopje, or Bitola, or anywhere in Macedonia you’ll know that hatred of Cigani and Shiptars is the norm for almost everyone. That’s what we need to move past if we’re ever going to be a successful 21st Century nation.

...

have YOU ever set foot in Bitola or anywhere in Macedonia?

Hatered towards "Cigani" and "Shiptars"?

to support your hard words, please provide some informations:

- how many shiptars and "cigani" were killed in Bitola (or some other MK city) couse of their nationality in the last 10 years.

- How many "shiptari and cigani" were expelled from their homes couse of their nationality.

- How many "shiptar and cigan" kidz were tortured couse of their nationality.

also, don´t forget to explain how come in Bitola (and accross RoM), except for short period in 2001, the stores owned by Albanians have no problems from the local population or the authorities.

- don´t forget to explain how come we still eat sendwiches at "bombata"
- don´t forget to explain how come there are so many Macedonians who don´t have any problem to spend their money at diverse shops owned by "shiptari and cigani"
- how come noone ever attacked "jajata" in Shtip? (jajata = shiptar family from Shtip, they have several shops)
- how come Ferus Mustafov, Esma Redjepova and many other "cigani" have the status of superstars?

so many things to explain, but for start this will be enough...

honestly... have you EVER bein´ in Makedonia?

and WHO are you?

who (d f´k) are you, to concider the complete Macedonian Nation for idiots?

[Prolet]

The Cigani have their own Manicipality (Suto Orizari), the only one in the world no other country gave them one. We are far too good to them and they even admit it, alot of them are good citizens and even fought in the 2001 conflict.

[Bratot]

Please don't let our discussion to be defocused with a debate about Roma minority position in RoM. That's not the main subject of this disagreement.

There will be another occassion after we finish what we started and that's the dispute Greece has with our name, the position and views of Ivo Petkovski about that issue and our objections.

A suggestion of mine to the Administrators of this forum to pay attention on the course of this thread.

[IvoPetkovski]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I’ll try to cover what I think are the main points raised.

Risto the Great says:

The worst thing that happens is that other people have forced you to accept a name change. That somehow you don't qualify to name yourself.

Well this seems to be a point of pride, but it’s interesting to think why people feel this strongly about it. The name change is a geographical designation, not a change of signifier - we’d still be Macedonian, and no one can change that. I think the Macedonians are just as collectively traumatised as the Greeks by the Ottoman invasion, and just as desperate to construct the myths that are perceived as necessary for a modern ethnic identity (Ackovska was honest on this point, to her credit).

If we’re honest, we can all acknowledge that being Macedonian, for us Slavs, is a relatively recent construct. Nothing wrong with that - it’s the same for all formerly occupied territories, and especially true in the Balkans where the national idea took root later than in Western Europe and elsewhere in the world. But 2/3 generations ago, we didn’t think we were Macedonians - the classification just didn’t make sense, we were Orthodox Christians and that was enough. Then, in the late 19th Century, the nation state as an idea swept through the region, and later still, in the 1930s/1940s, the Macedonians settled on that ethnic identity.

For me, those 60 years are enough to create the identity in reality. I’m comfortable with it, I can only be Macedonian, I’m not anything else - not FYROMian, Rumelian, Slavomacedonian, or the rest. But I don’t see why the identity can only be seen as legitimate if it’s projected back in time for the last 2,300 years, and in the face of the available facts. The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

But as inhabitants of the region, I think we can claim that name. That’s why it’s right that we have done, but I don’t see it as a mortal sin to acknowledge that both the Macedonians and the Greeks are in a desperate scramble to piece together a continuous ethnic narrative that somehow stretches across and eclipses the Ottoman occupation. We should understand the Greek irrationality and stubbornness, because we’re just the same, and for the same reasons. And yes, I know that both sides have made compromises.

In fact, I don't see the 'Northern Macedonia' name as the best outcome, my original assertion was that I would find this tolerable, and I have tried to give some reasons for that. But there's equally an argument to be made for holding fast until Greece concede the constitutional name, it just means that we have to continue being embattled on all fronts for a while longer. It's this kind of constant strife in the political landscape that stops us from developing in terms of business, and using the revenue for better education and services, etc...basically progressing as a nation. That's what I really want to see.

[Daniel the Great]

Ivo, to be honest i don't know anything about you, but by reading your posts you come across as a sellout, the simple fact that you support a name change is absolutely disgusting, we the Macedonians intend to keep our name but you are going totally against the wishes of the Macedonians.

[Bratot]

Ivo,

if we are being honest we would have to point out your double standards and biased reasoning.

You came here holding on a 'modern' definition of a state where history shouldn't play the deciding role in one's right to determine his ethnic identity but here you start messing with the history it self in the most arrogant and layman style, giving credits to Greece and taking from us.

I am not sure at this point if I should start historical based discussion in order to sink your agruments or we can continue with the course from beginning of our disagreement.

It seems you are trying to defocuse intentionally the focus of the arguments given to you before with taking this discussion out of it's course.

Don't take us for naive, not that much buddy and decide on which two aspects we are going to have a debate:

1. The legal side of the issue, or

2. The historical background of the allegations?

Lets not mess up the two of them and lets keep some order in our discussion.

[IvoPetkovski]

EgejskaMakedonija says:

Ivo, nobody gave you the right to speak on behalf of all Macedonians in such a manner. Your views do not align with the majority of Macedonians, and certainly not of the MTO.

I know they don’t. And I never claimed to speak on behalf of all Macedonians. But acting like entire world is against us is not doing us any good, that’s clear to me, so I’m ok with being in a minority view on that. Again, not the same as actively advocating a compromise - just trying to see it in perspective, and not as an existential threat.

Most of you seem to live in Australia, and I think someone is in Germany - tell me, what differences do you see between the political landscape there and in RoM? Why is it that we’re the much less successful country, in every sense? In large part, because we waste so much time trying to assert an identity that’s already successfully been asserted. It creates an insecure mindset, and contributes to instability.

The Ohrid agreement was practical - you oppose it on ideological grounds. But modern states don’t act like that - The British brought the Northern Irish into parliament, Australia and NZ bring in legislation to counter discrimination against ethnic minorities - seeing those things as mortal insults to a nation’s integrity, rather than necessary political maneouvring, is counterproductive. It makes no difference if Greece have these neuroses too, or if other countries do - the point is, we should move past it, and we’ll benefit.

[Onur]

I think the Macedonians are just as collectively traumatised as the Greeks by the Ottoman invasion, and just as desperate to construct the myths that are perceived as necessary for a modern ethnic identity (Ackovska was honest on this point, to her credit).

If we’re honest, we can all acknowledge that being Macedonian, for us Slavs, is a relatively recent construct. Nothing wrong with that - it’s the same for all formerly occupied territories, and especially true in the Balkans where the national idea took root later than in Western Europe and elsewhere in the world. But 2/3 generations ago, we didn’t think we were Macedonians - the classification just didn’t make sense, we were Orthodox Christians and that was enough. Then, in the late 19th Century, the nation state as an idea swept through the region, and later still, in the 1930s/1940s, the Macedonians settled on that ethnic identity.

The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

Actually i had no interest to write something to this thread but i have to say that i found rather absurd from you to connect Ottoman reign era with the current name issue as a traumatizing effect for whole Balkans. While you strongly point to that even for two times in your message, it`s weird that you don't even speak about assimilation attempts of both Greeks and Bulgars at Macedonia between 1850s to 1912, Balkan war at 1912, Greek occupation of Macedonia at 1913, population exchange between Turkey and Greece at 1924 and it`s devastating effect on demographics of the region, civil war in Greece at 1940s, USSR and Yugoslavia days...

Those were not traumatizing as Ottoman reign or those events had no relation with the current name issue?



Also i got one more question. I see that you speak about Macedonia was a Hellenized culture about 2500 years ago....

Ehm, So what???

Whats got to do with the current name issue? You imply that Macedonia was Greek 2500 years ago, so current "Greeks" of 2010 should be the one who can decide the fate of Macedonia and the people of ROM should obey this because of the events of 500-BC???


I am sorry but I think you delve into antiquity too much and i sense the effect of 19-20th century Hellenism propaganda in your message.

[Serdarot]

the parts with "antiquisation" and statements that the Ancient Macedonians were Greeks is part of your ignorance, or part of your asignment?

also pls do not forget to provide informations about the numbers of shiptari and other non-Macedonians who are victims of the "Macedonian Hatered"

[IvoPetkovski]

Onur,

You say:

it`s weird that you don't even speak about assimilation attempts of both Greeks and Bulgars at Macedonia between 1850s to 1912, Balkan war at 1912, Greek occupation of Macedonia at 1913, population exchange between Turkey and Greece at 1924 and it`s devastating effect on demographics of the region, civil war in Greece at 1940s...

It's not that weird when you consider that it was a post on a forum, not a definitive history of the region, but I agree that all those things are traumatic also, but they share another thing - they're all finished. I focussed on the Ottoman issue because it unites Greece and Macedonia, it's common ground, and this debate too often doesn't have any reference to the shared experience of the two nations.

Also i got one more question. I see that you speak about Macedonia was a Hellenized culture about 2500 years ago....

Ehm, So what???

Whats got to do with the current name issue?

A lot, unfortunately. If only everyone thought 'so what!?' like you and I do on that point. That desire for a continuous narrative is what drives the entrenchment on both sides of the name dispute. Not only that, but it results in historical falsehoods (note someone said that I was giving the Greeks 'credit' and taking from RoM, like these truths are negotiable) on both sides, which aggravate the other side.