Dating Macedonian Women

[Karposh]

Wow, that was jaw-dropping Starling. A whole dissertation on why God is wrong and progressives like yourself are right. I'm not even going to dare attempt to dissect all of your arguments as that will probably take me two days straight. But I will pick up on some points that you addressed to me personally.

First of all, not everyone follows the same religion and the church has had a lengthy history of corruption, abuse and persecuting others.

You have accused a number of people here of being patronising. Well, look who's being patronising here. I am well aware of the fact that not everyone follows the same religion. However, I think you will agree that Christianity has been the cornerstone of all western systems of government and that many of our laws and statutes that govern those western democracies are based on those Christian principles. Your point about the church having a lengthy history of corruption, abuse and persecution is irrelevant to what I said. You openly asked the question: “Who decided that boys can't wear dresses?” My answer was God. I did not mention the church. The church is made up of men and women, who are all fallible. Besides, the shortcomings of the church during the course of its history is irrelevant to the argument and is not a valid reason to dress little boys to look like girls (out of protest for those shortcomings I'm assuming?). As for the examples you provide of boys from the 1800's dressed up in what look like dresses, I have seen the same posted on this forum before on a similar topic. Fact is, I don't know the context of how those photos were taken. Perhaps they are innocent enough. Are the kids altar boys, for example? Ceremonially dressed for a church communion? I don't know. The context I am assuming we are discussing here is the act of intentionally dressing up boys to look like girls, the technical term of which is transvestism.

You know, people who try to use the bible to justify misogyny and homophobia seem to conveniently forget that part of the whole Jesus died for your sins thing involves no longer being held to anything within the old testament.

No, take it from me, the bible is pretty consistent when it comes to homosexuality. Both the old and new testaments have plenty to say about it and the new testament has more than its fair share of teachings on the matter. I threw in the old testament quote from the book of Deuteronomy because it is a famous quote regarding homosexuality but you’re right, as Christians, we follow the teachings of the new testament which deals with purity of the heart and soul rather that the outdated Jewish laws about ritualistic cleansing and other seemingly frivolous laws.

Your claims so far rest on 2 misleading quotes from thousand year old texts and an opinion piece from someone else.

On the contrary, I do not believe they are misleading in anyway and, as far as I'm concerned, those “thousand year old texts” are not opinions but words inspired by God. You don't have to believe this but there are many people out there who do believe this to be the case so please refrain from trivialising my faith. Would this qualify as discrimination in your eyes? or is the concept of discrimination reserved for everyone else except us stupid Christians.

Additionally why preach discrimination from something whose main message is peace and tolerance?

This has already stretched out more than I hoped so the last thing I wanted to say was I'm not trying to sway you Starling to think like me in any shape or form. But at the same time, please don't assume that your interpretation of the Christian message from what you quoted is how I should interpret the same. I have chosen to focus on a very specific and important message with regards to the topic at hand. The liberals are quick to point out that Jesus preached a message of love, peace and mercy and that we shouldn't be quick to judge and start casting the first stone. However, they never point out what Jesus said to that woman right after the fanatical stone-throwing crowd dispersed. He tells her “go and sin no more”. The premise of which is, yes, Jesus has the power to show mercy and forgive your sins but first one must acknowledge those sins and make efforts to stop sinning. Christianity is not some Social Club where you can pick and choose the bits you like and disregard the other bits that don't sit well with you. It's a package deal. Yes, the message is that of love, mercy and tolerance but it also comes with a side serving of obeying Gods wishes, some of which include:

1. A wife respecting her husband - which would include complimentary roles for both of them (something that you would naturally interpret as misogyny and/or segregation
2. And, definitely and unequivocally NO Homosexuality or Transvestism.

With that said, I'm not ignorant of the fact that the world is changing and how a person chooses to live their life is none of my business. I have never discriminated nor will I ever discriminate on others who have chosen to lead a different lifestyle to my own. You often get into some lengthy and passionate essays championing the LGBTQI agenda but please understand you will never convince me or others like me of your beliefs, as I'm sure we could never convince you of ours. Perhaps, and I say this with the greatest of respect, you are batting for the other team. Maybe that is the reason why this topic strikes such a chord with you. That's cool. I was looking at Youtube videos of Macedonian cage fighter Nina Arsanova (I think that's her name) and I was surprised to learn that she too is a lesbian. Lesbian or not, I would love to go and have a drink with you the next time I'm in Canada so don't think I hate homosexuals because I have beliefs that simply don't allow me to jump on board the new progressive way of thinking.

[Starling]

RtG, you're far too generous.

How someone (Starling, for example) can argue that complementary relationships are equal to segregation of the scale experienced by African Americans in the south up to the 1960s without even been slightly embarrassed is beyond me. I think only a dedicated Marxist could pull this off without feeling the subtle tug of intellectual dishonesty in the dark recesses of their mind.

If it were a business relationship where two partners equally owned the firm but brought different skills to the company it would be called a perfect match where each complements the other in the sense that they contribute knowledge and/or skills that the other lacks. But if the two got married its supposedly the equivalent of the husband shoving his wife's head down the toilet, whipping her back and sending her off to live in a separate, but parallel, existence where they are never to use the same facilities or visit the same establishments. This, according to the Neo-Marxist mind warp, is now what marriage is supposedly like. My only questions is, 'who the fuck are you idiots married to, the local Taliban chief?'

Vangelovski, I'm gonna be brutally honest here. You have used up any patience I had for your bullshit. I've had to put up with your condescension, lack of respect for anything I've said, ignoring things I've already explained to you, your increasingly overt insults, refusal to actually respond to most of what I've said, you're the main reason this conversation's gotten derailed so badly and you're still making fallacious statements dismissing what I've said and refusing to actually back up your claims with logical arguments. You aren't even pretending to acknowledge the fallacies I've pointed out you've made or my refutations to your accusations. It simply isn't possible to have an actual discussion with someone who isn't willing to give a damn about what I've said and put actual work into responding to me. Unless you decide to stop being an ass after I put all that time and effort into my response, the best you're going to be getting from me is either jack shit or quotes from previous posts.

40 fucking pages in a word document over 3 days that felt like a week, scrolling up and down, up and down through a block of text where every paragraph looks the same in that narrow forum post box, going back and forth through the same damn thread and looking up relevant information to provide to 5 people simultaneously addressing me with sizeable posts mostly discussing matters that have deviated so far from the original topic it's like a distant memory despite the thread only being created 10 days ago. I even went and put together our entire exchange and colour coded it despite the hassle instead of telling you to go through the thread yourself for it. Despite your failure to meet the burden of proof for your accusations, I took the time to respond to each and every one of them. I didn't put all that time and effort into my post to get this shit as my response.

Segregation is segregation. Women were barred from having jobs, voting, having certain things, owning property or just generally existing as independent individuals with their own worth and yet you still fail to see how maybe, just maybe, that two marginalized groups who've been treated as inferior and placed in separate categories with less rights based on that have some things in common. Have you heard of what the catholic church has done to unmarried pregnant women? Maternity homes for unmarried women, whose inhumane practices were the main reason for the Canadian counter-culture movement in the 60s against the church's abusive treatment of the people, whose last vestiges persisted in Ireland as late the 80s, have a considerable body count. They found a mass grave of women and children in a septic tank. For the sole "crime" of being pregnant without being married. Women, many of which were minors, were isolated from the world, at times forced to take on different names to "spare their family's reputations", malnourished, had their labour exploited without pay for the church's profit, were robbed of their children with proof that some of them were starved to death shortly after and they were gaslit into thinking they should be grateful to those people for "caring" for them. These were the same people who opposed women's abortion rights because "think of the children!" Where was that concern for all the bastard children they murdered and abused? Where was that mercy and compassion the bible they preached from asked of its followers? What part of this follows the demand for impartiality in the love you must afford others as you would yourself?

There's a story behind French Canadians' use of blasphemy as profanity to the point of casual use and it's one of outrage towards a corrupt institution that's done horrible things to people, especially women and children. The church has historically been used as a tool to enforce the patriarchal societal norms responsible for the abuse of women. It was never about the children, but rather controlling women and what they could or couldn't do.

Don't believe me? Here are some articles, including the particularily infamous one in Ireland where that mass grave was found:

https://www.originscanada.org/adoption-practices/adoption-realities/homes-for-unwed-mothers/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/04/irish-excavation-confirms-mass-grave-of-babies-toddlers-at-former-home-for-unwed-mothers/?utm_term=.e11b158c7381

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/13/a-survivor-recalls-the-mother-and-baby-home-at-tuam-in-ireland-where-friends-just-disappeared-one-after-the-other/?utm_term=.f27611121040

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ireland-tuam-mother-baby-homes-unmarried-graves

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/03/mass-graves-ireland-long-history-church-abuse-170321060241996.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/07/catholic-church-children-buried-at-tuam-ireland

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/duplessis-orphans-meet-irish-mother-baby-homes-1.4142930

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/curtain-lifts-on-decades-of-forced-adoptions-for-unwed-mothers-in-canada

https://canadiancrc.com/Butterbox-Babies_Killers-Child-Trafficking-Canada/Butterbox-Babies-Baby-killers-child-trafficking-selling-babies-Canada-adoption-story.aspx

http://www.theclayandglass.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Unwed-Mothers-research-Nancy-Final.pdf-FOR-WEBSITE-PROVIDE-PDF-PG2.pdf

https://birthtraumacanada.org/49.html

https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/pi/index.php/pi/article/viewFile/1425/966

http://www.njlindquist.com/gone-to-an-aunts-part-1/

http://www.njlindquist.com/gone-to-an-aunts-part-2/

Don't you dare presume you know what kind of hell women have been through in older or recent history and how little (yet another fallacy of relative privation) it compares to another notable case of discrimination where an entire demographic was abused in horrific ways due to similar reasoning, which was the basis of comparison to begin with. That idea that some people are lesser than others and should be treated differently for those reasons. The people running those homes claimed they were helping "rehabilitate" them and were originally created out of genuine concern for the difficulties women without additional support would face in those circumstances.

And you know what else? There's reason to believe that Pandora was originally venerated as the primordial woman or the mortal aspect of the mother goddess, the giver rather than the given, before the misogynistic version where she basically existed solely to cause suffering to men and justify women's eternal condemnation as the cause of all the evil in the world. How about the bullshit about Lilith being literally demonized for wanting to be treated as an equal, so Eve was made from a piece of Adam rather than wholesale like he was, and how Eve was similarly made the origin of sin, the reason humanity lost paradise and the pain of childbirth was said to be women's eternal punishment for the "crime" of eating a fruit of knowledge, completely ignoring that Adam chose to eat one too? How about how a word for insanity/unreasonable behaviour basically derives from a word for uterus and was used to describe the PTSD symptoms of abused women? What the hell does that say about how society has treated women over the years. The mentality behind those things never went away. It just finds new ways to repackage itself as socially acceptable when the previous methods become abhorrent.

You think I should be embarrassed over myself? There's this German word called fremdschämen I'd be feeling right now if I wasn't so pissed off at your arrogance. I advise you look at yourself in the mirror and think long and hard about how you've conducted yourself in this thread.


And Karposh? A lot of this is applicable to you too. Think critically about why the golden rule, explicitly referred to as the second most important tenet of Christianity, and stuff like "show no impartiality" in reference to loving others or "there is no mercy for those who have shown none" in reference to ignoring said tenet suddenly stops mattering when convenient. Also think about the church's history of abuse based on the exact same reasoning you've been pushing forward. Or did you forget that Macedonians have experienced abuse and oppression from the church and were among the first to create movements meant to fight against its corruption?

I'm fucking done with people who have no respect for my posts and the work I put into them and would rather talk about anything but the fucking point I originally made about how societal biases against women and the unwillingness to acknowledge your part in them is going to make them avoid you. If women come to this forum all excited about possibly joining and talking about Macedonian culture, see this thread and decide not to bother with this shit then I wouldn't blame them. Had I seen a thread like this when I was joining I probably wouldn't have bothered either. Stuff like this can and will drive women away and make them feel unwelcome in the community.

RtG, you're not as egregious but you're still contributing to the problem. I've been getting a distinct sense of unwillingness to truly cut the distractions and just focus on the original topic and none of you so much as voiced concerns about the increasingly patronizing attitude I've been subjected to and how my input has gradually come to be undervalued or outright dismissed under fallacious pretenses. That and having to deal with multiple people at once simply isn't conductive to discussion and to be honest gives little incentive for me to care about it when I put so much more into it than I'll ever get in return.


This thread should never have been made and I'm done with dealing with people who take the work I put into my responses for granted. Appreciation for the detail only one person actually expressed just doesn't make up for the shit I've had to put up with. Look back on this entire thread and really think about what you've all done.

[Karposh]

Does this mean I won't be having a drink with you the next time I'm in Canada?

[Gocka]

I think my laptop started smoking when I opened the post.

Listen you have heart, and you really did put in a lot of effort, RTG already noted that he appreciates your detailed responses, as do I. You obviously feel passionately about this subject, and maybe so do some of the rest of us, but with different conclusions. Yes sometimes things get patronizing and condescending. Look through 1000's of posts and you will find that much worse patronizing and insults have been levied against only other men up until this point. Trust me when I say that this has nothing to do with you, or your gender, this is just Thursday around here, so don't take it personally. It doesn't mean that you're perspective on other issues wouldn't be appreciated. You could write your heart out for infinity and I don't think you will convince many here on gender fluidity, and that's okay.

I hope we can see such vigor on maybe some Macedonia issues.

I'm fucking done with people who have no respect for my posts and the work I put into them and would rather talk about anything but the fucking point I originally made about how societal biases against women and the unwillingness to acknowledge your part in them is going to make them avoid you. If women come to this forum all excited about possibly joining and talking about Macedonian culture, see this thread and decide not to bother with this shit then I wouldn't blame them. Had I seen a thread like this when I was joining I probably wouldn't have bothered either. Stuff like this can and will drive women away and make them feel unwelcome in the community.

RtG, you're not as egregious but you're still contributing to the problem. I've been getting a distinct sense of unwillingness to truly cut the distractions and just focus on the original topic and none of you so much as voiced concerns about the increasingly patronizing attitude I've been subjected to and how my input has gradually come to be undervalued or outright dismissed under fallacious pretenses. That and having to deal with multiple people at once simply isn't conductive to discussion and to be honest gives little incentive for me to care about it when I put so much more into it than I'll ever get in return.


This thread should never have been made and I'm done with dealing with people who take the work I put into my responses for granted. Appreciation for the detail only one person actually expressed just doesn't make up for the shit I've had to put up with. Look back on this entire thread and really think about what you've all done.

[Starling]

Does this mean I won't be having a drink with you the next time I'm in Canada?

I don't like alcohol so it wasn't going to happen anyway.

I think my laptop started smoking when I opened the post.

Listen you have heart, and you really did put in a lot of effort, RTG already noted that he appreciates your detailed responses, as do I. You obviously feel passionately about this subject, and maybe so do some of the rest of us, but with different conclusions. Yes sometimes things get patronizing and condescending. Look through 1000's of posts and you will find that much worse patronizing and insults have been levied against only other men up until this point. Trust me when I say that this has nothing to do with you, or your gender, this is just Thursday around here, so don't take it personally. It doesn't mean that you're perspective on other issues wouldn't be appreciated. You could write your heart out for infinity and I don't think you will convince many here on gender fluidity, and that's okay.

I hope we can see such vigor on maybe some Macedonia issues.

Discussions rely on mutual respect. If things get patronizing and condescending on one end and doesn't get dealt with then it's just not going to work, just like unwillingness to acknowledge the ways in which you knowingly or unknowingly fail to treat women as equals is going to tell them not to bother because they simply shouldn't be expected to have to put more work in than they get back. This thread is practically an interactive example of the reasons why some of you are having dating problems and how Macedonian women are likely being driven out of the community precisely by this kind of behaviour.

I already acknowledged RtG's comment and how that just isn't good enough if the patronizing behaviour and insults are going to keep being treated as a normal part of all this. It tells me my effort and responses are still being taken for granted, like saying it isn't too little too late at this point. You want to discuss things that've veered off topic? Make a thread dedicated to it so it'll stop interfering with the original point of discussion. This is exactly why people usually enforce rules about off topic discussion.

Stop going "but what about men?" when the point is about patronizing behaviour towards women and other forms of discrimination they face. When you say that you dismiss the attempt at discussing socially enforced discrimination against women that's gone on for thousands of years in one form or another. Of course men are going to deal with patronizing comments too. That's not the point. You're looking at the symptom of a societal problem specifically targeted at women, assume it's just about the symptom and try to inject men's issues into a discussion whose topic you're only looking at on a superficial level. You want a thread about how male abuse victims need more resources and recognition? Make a thread for that instead of forcing it into a discussion about the specific issues women deal with.

You want advice on how to meet and form relationships with more Macedonian women? How about you try listening to one's advice on what is or isn't welcoming to them and why.

The patronizing comments are ultimately about a lack of respect for what I'm talking about. You can't prove that there isn't gender based bias involved in there whether it's directed specifically at me or my attempts to talk about it so don't claim that there isn't. Thing is, when discussing problems women deal with is a central part of how to find a solution to the underlying problems expressed, I get patronized and insulted for talking about it, no one seems to care about addressing said behaviour and you then say that this isn't about me or my gender, we have a problem.

This is a Macedonia issue. If you're naive enough to think that this has nothing to do with whether or not Macedonian women feel welcome in Macedonian communities or why there are so few women on this forum then I've got news for you. You don't get to have a thread titled " Dating Macedonian Women" and then say this isn't a Macedonian issue.

[Vangelovski]

40 fucking pages in a word document over 3 days that felt like a week, scrolling up and down, up and down through a block of text where every paragraph looks the same in that narrow forum post box, going back and forth through the same damn thread and looking up relevant information to provide to 5 people simultaneously addressing me with sizeable posts mostly discussing matters that have deviated so far from the original topic it's like a distant memory despite the thread only being created 10 days ago. I even went and put together our entire exchange and colour coded it despite the hassle instead of telling you to go through the thread yourself for it. Despite your failure to meet the burden of proof for your accusations, I took the time to respond to each and every one of them. I didn't put all that time and effort into my post to get this shit as my response.

Aren't you a fool? I was quite upfront about the fact that this conversation wouldn't go far if you couldn't understand the difference between a complementary relationship and segregation.

If you actually read through my posts for what they are without 'reading between the lines', over thinking it and throwing in your neo-Marxist assumptions, then you would see that I haven't actually said much at all. All I have said is that men and women are equal (in rights and respect) but have different (yet complimentary and equally important) attributes. You've clearly read it with your own neo-Marxist feminist lens on (confusing words and concepts in the process, i.e. complementarianism with segregation - maybe part of the neo-Marxist feminist PC ideology at the moment?) an then launched into a snowflake tirade.

You mention you get no respect - have you ever thought that the reason is because you completely ignore the letter and the spirit of whats been said and just assume what others are saying? If you had been paying attention to my comments instead of just ranting about them, you wouldn't have wasted so much time in the first place. You might even find that I agree with most (not all) of what you're saying.

[Amphipolis]

You want advice on how to meet and form relationships with more Macedonian women? How about you try listening to one's advice on what is or isn't welcoming to them and why.

So mac4life2, to make a long story short, Macedonian women talk too much. You may have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, but do you think you can stand this?

[Vangelovski]

So mac4life2, to make a long story short, Macedonian women talk too much. You may have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, but do you think you can stand this?

Go back to Afghanistan mate, its much easier

[Risto the Great]

RtG, you're not as egregious but you're still contributing to the problem. I've been getting a distinct sense of unwillingness to truly cut the distractions and just focus on the original topic and none of you so much as voiced concerns about the increasingly patronizing attitude I've been subjected to and how my input has gradually come to be undervalued or outright dismissed under fallacious pretenses. That and having to deal with multiple people at once simply isn't conductive to discussion and to be honest gives little incentive for me to care about it when I put so much more into it than I'll ever get in return.

Thanks Starling. I am not as egregious as others because I tend to be nicer to women than men. I can't help it, it's part of my genetics I guess. You should read the terrible things I have said to Vangelovski for example!

On the first page of the thread you assumed I wanted my wife (all wives) to stay at home and look after me and took issue with my point about modern Macedonian women perpetuating Macedonian culture.

Pick any forum thread (on any forum) you like and the majority of them will stray from the original theme. It's normal, nothing to become exasperated about. I still believe the thread remained largely on track as dating Macedonian women in developed countries such as USA and Canada etc. has a layer of complexity that must embrace current issues pertaining to women's rights in these countries.

When I mentioned I am increasingly becoming an advocate for men's rights you immediately wanted to label me a closet misogynist. The most recent article I posted in this thread was compelling and introduced some much needed balance in this "quest for rights" in my opinion. You say you have received nothing in return but fail to even comment on the terrible predicament of men in modern society. I guess you are backing your own team and we should interpret your responses as such.

Don't forget, I wanted Chinese women's wages to increase!

RtG, you're far too generous.

It's because I am a gentleman.

[Risto the Great]

So mac4life2, to make a long story short, Macedonian women talk too much.

What a terrible generalisation! I can confirm Greek women talk just as much as Macedonian women!

[Vangelovski]

It's because I am a gentleman.

I think they want to be treated equally, thats why I'm treating her like one of us. Unless she wants to be superior, then I can treat her worse

[Karposh]

Thanks Starling. I am not as egregious as others because I tend to be nicer to women than men.

Egregious. I think I just learned a new word for the day. If only I knew how to pronounce it so I can hopefully use it in a sentence one day.

On the first page of the thread you assumed I wanted my wife (all wives) to stay at home and look after me and took issue with my point about modern Macedonian women perpetuating Macedonian culture.

Just how many wives do you have anyway Risto?...You old dog.

[Risto the Great]

Just how many wives do you have anyway Risto?...You old dog.

lol
To keep it Orthodox, they are all "first among equals".

[Tomche Makedonche]

May as well chime in and offer my thoughts on the subject since its become the topic of the day.

Are men and women the same?: No

Does traditional Macedonian culture promote equal roles for males and females?: No (how many cultures do?)

Is this the sole reason why we find Macedonians marrying outside their culture in Western multicultural societies?: No. Whilst it might be a factor in the decision making of some individuals, it would be obtuse to consider this as the main or sole reason why Macedonian men and woman in western multicultural societies decide to marry outside their culture.

As for dating tips?, well me and my wife have been together for about 20 years now so I can’t say I’m in a good position to provide relevant tips for dating in today’s modern society. From my experience, I have found people tend to apply two main approaches when it comes to selecting partners. One is based on an analytical approach, i.e. similar to what owners of pets/livestock use when trying to select a mate for breeding; and the other being a pure emotional approach. I’ve seen relationships based on either approach result in success and failure. The same can be said about relationships based on a mix of the two. In the absence of abuse, I personally think commitment towards the longevity of a relationship is what tends to be pivotal, which coincidently appears to be lacking most these days, its just much easier to give up when life changes or times get tough, but to each their own.

In saying that, for those who do view marriage as being one of the most valuable milestones to accomplish in their life, the best advice I would offer is to actually live with your intended partner for at least a year before making the decision to formally commit to each other. I think by then you should have a proper understanding of each other and whether you are able to make it work.

[Starling]

Thanks Starling. I am not as egregious as others because I tend to be nicer to women than men. I can't help it, it's part of my genetics I guess. You should read the terrible things I have said to Vangelovski for example!

In this case it's more that Vangelovski's constant insults skew the curve and he was the main subject of my response. Not as outstandingly bad in relation to his conduct doesn't really say much and you seem to have missed the part where you're still part of the problem and need to own up to that. If that's the case then why haven't you called him out on his insults? Why did you respond jokingly to a sexist joke that belittles what I've said?

On the first page of the thread you assumed I wanted my wife (all wives) to stay at home and look after me and took issue with my point about modern Macedonian women perpetuating Macedonian culture.

You said this:

If the macedonian women can't do what the mothers do, why bother with them? The world has gone mad.

While you may have intended it as wanting women to be capable of doing what a mother would, it still speaks of an expectation that women conform to a role that involves being the primary caregivers and child-rearers, especially since this was among the things you were responding to:

Macedonian men are mama's boys, they are childish and are used to their mom's cooking, cleaning, doing their laundry, picking up after them.

So in context, I had every reason to take it the way I did and say

Why would you want your wife to be your new mother? Relationships need to be on equal ground in order to work and expecting your spouse to look after you rather than collaborate as equals sharing your lives together generally makes you undesirable to women.

Most women aren't particularly fond of the house wife stereotype and prefer to have paid income. Since this thread is about wanting to date someone that shares your heritage, try finding someone at Macedonian events. As for the issue of assimilation, start conversations about why remembering and preserving our culture is important, be active in the community and teach the younger generation why they should care about it and how to recognize assimilation and issues in that regard. The french speaking community continues to thrive in Canada precisely because concerns of assimilation and how to deal with that are almost constantly a topic of discussion. Also pretty much all my uncles on my mom's side of the family married women of varied backgrounds, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just teach your kids not to neglect their Macedonian heritage and to be proud of it and you'll manage. Multi-ethnic backgrounds are the norm these days and the Jewish community manages just fine despite most of them having little resemblance to their semitic ancestors from so many years of intermixing with other groups. Likewise there are native american communities with mixed heritage and they manage too.

The first part directly addresses the implications of what you said and offers a reminder that those tasks should be distributed evenly between partners and that a healthy relationship requires collaboration. The rest is a response to the thread in general, attempting to address the concerns expressed.

Gocka also said this:

Macedonian men tend to be very rude, cocky and overly macho types. They don't have respect for women.

This was in the second post of this thread, before I even joined in on the discussion. Someone else pointed out before I did that this was something that made Macedonian women less willing to date Macedonian men.

Here's how you clarified it in response:

I would assume most want to marry Macedonian women because they hope they can continue with much of their culture. If the younger wives can't contribute to the home in the way many of our mothers have, then they are on an equal playing field with all the other women. So, aside from genetics, I can't see the reason to marry one since they have already abandoned their culture.

I've told my sons I would rather they married someone that was deeply in love with them than a Macedonian girl who seems nice.

I was chatting to a guy from New York and he said he simply has no chance to meet women there. He isn't wealthy and he isn't Jewish. Basically no chance.

Contributing the home in the way previous generations have means fulfilling the role of a housewife, basically confirming what I'd been responding to. You equated this to preserving Macedonian culture and declared women unwilling to be treated in that manner as having abandoned it. This kind of thinking tells Macedonian women "be a traditional housewife of you've failed your duties as a Macedonian." It actively pushes them away and demands that Macedonian culture in relation to women can only be this. The women dissatisfied with such a role would then opt not to bother with such men and seek men more respectful of them as spouses instead, regardless of their ethnic background. In your following response to me, you added this:

I think a modern stereotype of a woman/wife has absolutely nothing to do with the 1950's if that helps. My wife is Macedonian. Possibly the last of a dying breed. Keeps the house alive with a smile on her face and does the same with my office also. And has her tertiary qualification. And makes lovely p'lnati Piperki.

Just saying that if finding a Macedonian woman who is simply an American is the objective, it's probably not going to be worth it. If she has retained some good core Macedonian values, maybe she is worth it.

Either way, given the limited quantity, I'd prioritise true love.

Which equates said Macedonian women as simply American, not real Macedonian women as those are the ones who fill the roll of housewife. You even claim it has nothing to do with the 1950s stereotype when that's exactly what it is. Preserving Macedonian culture doesn't mean keeping it stagnant and unable to adapt and evolve. Things that refuse to adapt to a changing environment die out.

Pick any forum thread (on any forum) you like and the majority of them will stray from the original theme. It's normal, nothing to become exasperated about. I still believe the thread remained largely on track as dating Macedonian women in developed countries such as USA and Canada etc. has a layer of complexity that must embrace current issues pertaining to women's rights in these countries.

Those deviations don't usually come from blatantly ignoring reminders that you're missing the point of what someone is saying or constantly steering the topic away from it and later claiming the original points you failed to address don't deserve to be until your off-topic demands have been addressed. That kind of thing involves unwillingness to acknowledge that you've been missing the point of what the other person has been saying or blatantly disregarding it even made aware of what you did. And to avoid misunderstandings, this is about how responses to my posts in this thread have gone in general.

I'm willing to discuss multiple things at once. I've broached a number of subjects others have brought forth instead of shutting down all talk of it. I've been patient about having my main points addressed despite this level of consideration not being afforded to me by people I've been responding to.

What I won't tolerate is the repeated exclusion or dismissal of my main point in responses to what I'm saying, as well as attempts to call that in any way what a discussion is naturally supposed to be like. I have every right to find that exasperating, especially the part where no one is saying anything about the condescension I've been subjected to and what that says about how my input is actually valued despite claims otherwise.

Where's all this mysterious talk of women's rights been? People keep dodging my attempts to address that and trying to make it about "human issues" or sexual dimorphism instead, sometimes even belittling the discrimination women face as if "it's all in the past", "it is/was never as bad as X" or making endless ad hominem arguments. Those are fallacious arguments that fall under red herring arguments precisely because they avoid the actual point and steer the topic away from it without addressing it. If you actually address it and we reach a conclusion to this, then we can move on to other things. There's a difference between a forced change of topic born of fallacious statements and refusal to address the original point and a natural change as those things are addressed and focus is shifted to other things.

When I mentioned I am increasingly becoming an advocate for men's rights you immediately wanted to label me a closet misogynist. The most recent article I posted in this thread was compelling and introduced some much needed balance in this "quest for rights" in my opinion. You say you have received nothing in return but fail to even comment on the terrible predicament of men in modern society. I guess you are backing your own team and we should interpret your responses as such.

No, I said this:

In my experience the term mens rights is mostly used by mysogynists lashing out against Feminism or people who make fallacious arguments devaluing the need for women's rights. Didn't I just explain how Feminism seeks to address double standards that hurt men too and are the largest advocates for taking male rape and abuse victims seriously? It's about being on equal footing, so it's not hurting men at all and it's not a women only group. The same double standards basically hurt everyone in different ways so recognizing the different facets of it and addressing all of them is a part of Feminism

Actual misogynist organisations do use that term. I also pointed out the other main group using that term and the one you fell under was the one that only seems to bring it up when making false equivalence arguments that respond to problems affecting women with "but men are abused too!" when that's not the point.

You also said it in the context of claiming that there was no wage gap and that women weren't still facing discrimination for being women:

Anyway, I am very much an advocate for men's rights nowadays. I have over 2000 taxation clients in my firm and I see no evidence whatsoever that women earn less than men in Australia. I even have one female client on half a million dollars a year who freely admits she keeps getting pay rises because she is a woman and they want more females on the board of the organisation she is employed by.

Australia is way past any suggestion of inequality in this regard in my opinion

A statement I later proved to be false. You then went on to talk about how offended you were about an article simply explaining societal biases men unknowingly perpetuate:

There is a female journalist who goes out of her way to push her version of feminism. This article had me livid, tell me what you think:

It’s not that hard to avoid being a jerk

EVERYONE is a little bit sexist, just like everyone is a little bit racist. We have stereotypes buried in our psyches from such an early age, it’s impossible for even the most rational mind to entirely get rid of them. But we have to try.

We have to try to do that through conscious recognition of our biases, and through conscious changing of our environments so each generation is a little less bigoted that the last.

There has been a fairly horrifying wave of sexual assault stories hitting the media these last couple of weeks.

In the face of these tales of rape, threats, and intimidation, yesterday’s report into everyday sexism might just seem a little... everyday.

The Male Champions of Change Institute released We Set The Tone: Eliminating Everyday Sexism against a backdrop of far more violent behaviour.

But it is more important than ever that everyday sexism is not dismissed.

You don’t have to be a Hands-on Harvey to be helping support the stereotypes and sick culture that can ultimately lead to rape and sexual assault.

That’s not to say that everyone who gives you a wink and calls you “love” will go on to hurt anyone; of course not. But gender inequality is the primary cause of violence against women and everyday sexism helps perpetuate gender inequality.

It’s complicated, true, to know what is sexist. There are different norms in different places, and every relationship has its own complexities to navigate. There are things said in robust workplaces between long-time colleagues that would never be said in other contexts.

But to give up on everyday sexism as political correctness gone mad is to be part of the system that produces the Weinsteins of the world. Those who blame PC just want to say whatever they want without retribution.

And it is hard — sometimes damnably hard — to work out when you’re crossing one of those lines. Luckily, women are totally humans and you can generally ask one about it.

You may not get an honest answer if, say, you’re the boss of the corporation and you’re grilling the new recruit. But somewhere in your life there is probably someone who can help guide you through the sexism minefield. Or look it up.

Or sit down and have a long hard think about it. To get you started, here’s some of the sorts of scenarios where you want to look out for hidden difficulties.

JOKEY INSULTS

The Male Champions report says this is the most common type of everyday sexism. One of the examples they give is: “Make sure you wear your low-cut top to meet with that client!”.

Obviously the first problem with this as a jokey insult is that it in no way can be described as joke. Not even a fall-down drunk Benny Hill fan would get a chuckle out of that one (surely).

Second problem? It’s outright insulting. And closely related to “negging”, which I wrote about briefly last week.

MANSPLAINING

Everyone should be familiar with this old chestnut by now. Mansplaining is when a man takes particular and meticulous care to explain to a woman something she already knows quite a bit about. A related bit of everyday sexism is talking over women in meetings, a common trait of the alpha male. Or, as Foreign Minister Julie Bishop found, applauding a woman’s idea when it comes out of a man’s mouth.

‘COMPLIMENTS’

This is a really tough one for some guys (apparently). There is no blanket rule about complimenting women, but do avoid: leering in the general direction of breasts or buttocks, only ever mentioning how women look/dress/walk, any situation where you might be deemed to be intimidating said woman. If you think you’ve sailed too close to the wind, look out for an eyeroll or an embarrassed look, they’re often giveaways.

THE WHITE KNIGHT

The White Knight can also be a hard one — and they are generally very well-intentioned. They are eager to support women in the workplace, to stand up for them.

Like a noble hero riding in to rescue the poor damsel in distress. Thus making the woman look (and feel) like some hopeless victim who can’t cope on her own.

Speaking of stereotypes; I’ve used my own here. Of course sexism can go both ways. Men are often picked on as being bumblers about the home, or judged harshly for wanting some work/life balance. And they can be harassed or assaulted, too.

And women can be sexist to other women about how they dress, speak and act. But the fact is most sexism is about power and in most places men still have most power.

You might think everyday sexism is minor, but think about how it piles up through someone’s life; how it normalises the idea of men holding sway over women.

There’s a straightforward answer to how to stop women being assaulted. Stop assaulting them.

While insulting them can have greyer areas, it’s really not that hard to work out how not to be a dick.

Tory Shepherd is the Adelaide Advertiser political editor.

You completely missed the point of the article, misrepresented it and got offended because at the end of the day, your problem isn't with the wording, it's with the message that men have been socialized to hold and perpetuate biases against women that even when seemingly minor, are what validates the people who do the things people are starting to actually take seriously.

And since you took issue with the seeming "isolation" of the article, here's a link to the group referenced: http://malechampionsofchange.com/about-us/

And here's the article she was referencing: http://malechampionsofchange.com/wp-...xism_FINAL.pdf

If you have such a big problem with a female writer "having an axe to grind against men" for raising awareness for all the "little things" that matter a lot more than people seem to think, then what do you make of the one written by men who advocate those same things?

The very fact that you take such offense to pointing out that you have biases against women make you part of the problem. So don't go misrepresenting what I say and then pretend none of it was warranted.

Don't forget, I wanted Chinese women's wages to increase!

It's because I am a gentleman.

Which is good but doesn't mean you can't also knowingly or unknowingly perpetuate biases against women.

It's not all about who commits hate crimes and who vocally supports equal rights.

Also you implied that equal rights for women in China would be bad for its international prosperity.

So mac4life2, to make a long story short, Macedonian women talk too much. You may have served in Iraq or Afghanistan, but do you think you can stand this?

Amphipolis, you don't get to just show up here suddenly and make a joke out of what I said. That's both fallacious and just generally rude and disrespectful. You've also demonstrated that women can in fact perpetuate misogyny against other women by using the age old "you talk too much" excuse typically used to silence women. In 2 sentences, you've managed to demonstrate that you're no better. And RtG, I see you playing along with it like you're not complicit to this.

May as well chime in and offer my thoughts on the subject since its become the topic of the day.

Are men and women the same?: No

Does traditional Macedonian culture promote equal roles for males and females?: No (how many cultures do?)

Is this the sole reason why we find Macedonians marrying outside their culture in Western multicultural societies?: No. Whilst it might be a factor in the decision making of some individuals, it would be obtuse to consider this as the main or sole reason why Macedonian men and woman in western multicultural societies decide to marry outside their culture.

As for dating tips?, well me and my wife have been together for about 20 years now so I can’t say I’m in a good position to provide relevant tips for dating in today’s modern society. From my experience, I have found people tend to apply two main approaches when it comes to selecting partners. One is based on an analytical approach, i.e. similar to what owners of pets/livestock use when trying to select a mate for breeding; and the other being a pure emotional approach. I’ve seen relationships based on either approach result in success and failure. The same can be said about relationships based on a mix of the two. In the absence of abuse, I personally think commitment towards the longevity of a relationship is what tends to be pivotal, which coincidently appears to be lacking most these days, its just much easier to give up when life changes or times get tough, but to each their own.

In saying that, for those who do view marriage as being one of the most valuable milestones to accomplish in their life, the best advice I would offer is to actually live with your intended partner for at least a year before making the decision to formally commit to each other. I think by then you should have a proper understanding of each other and whether you are able to make it work.

Thank you. What I've been saying isn't about men and women being exactly the same in every way, but rather about them being equals within society.

I've actually brought up that there was more to the problem than that but it got lost amidst everything else. Ultimately demographics make mixed marriage inevitable even in groups who while not necessarily native to the region they're in, have established sizable communities there centuries ago, hence bringing up my mixed ancestry and how most of my mom's siblings married people who weren't French Canadian. I haven't confirmed all their backgrounds but the ones I know are all different and have their own cultures to add and it makes things interesting. My advice about this inevitability is to be more welcoming of others, inviting them to celebrate Macedonian culture, teach it to your children and make them feel welcome despite their mixed heritage.

Lack of commitment is definitely an issue, though balance in finding a comfortable pace is important too. Another key to a healthy relationship is trust and communication. If you can't trust your partner not to cheat on you, then that's not a healthy relationship whether they actually give you reason to doubt or you just don't feel secure bout their love for you.

For communication, it ranges from remembering that they can't read your mind and will need to be verbally told when something is on your mind to learning not to force your way or recognize when others are doing it to you when it comes to decision-making. The failed marriages I've seen have largely been because of inequality in things like decision-making and the general sense that one had more say than the other. That kind of inequality then led to a messy divorce and fighting over how things were redistributed.

It's actually possible to reach an amiable conclusion that the relationship isn't healthy or fulfilling on both ends and staying on good terms afterwards but doesn't happen very often due to how that stuff usually plays out. I agree that you need time really learning about each other beyond just doing things together to really know if you're ready to commit to that. Rushed marriages won't help you with that.