Macedonian Nationalism

[aleksandrov]

Let's review step by step what Pribichevich states so that we can truly grasp this for what it is, not how you and indigen would like it to be;

Now are you going to tell me more about this black and white stuff or are you going to interpret your own version of what Pribichevich is really saying here?

I suggest you and indigen stop looking at each other since you both are mirror images of each other.

Speaking of "black and white stuff", do you know the difference between a theory or 'interpretation' and facts and evidence on which that theory is based?

I asked you to cite what I've said about Pribichevich that led you to conclude that I am duping people? Why haven't you cited me yet? Is it because it is you who is trying to dupe people?

I asked you whether you are accusing Indigen of having misquoted Pribichevich in the quote I reposted above? Why haven't you answered that question directly? Why have you completely ignored the specific quote used by Indigen and focused on other quotes from Pribichevich, when the issue is not citing everything Pribichevich has ever claimed, but whether Indigen has misquoted him in the specific thread that you attempted to use as proof of your accusation that he has been 'duping' people? Is it because you have made false accusations and do not have the grace to admit it?

[TrueMacedonian]

You mean the one you have disingenuously misappropriated for your avatar? Yes, that has been a symbol of one of the key organizations I've been involved in for about 18 years, being the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney. We recently modified it.

Now, given that I've been courteous enough to answer your irrelevant question directly, would you mind telling us the rationale for including symbols of what, according to your inferences in this thread, are two different 'ethnic' or 'national' cultures in your avatar? Which one of those is representative of your earliest known ethnic or cultural origin as a 'true' Macedonian?

Ahhh more snippy insults. You do realize how much you are making yourself look even worse. I guess asking the oh glorious Aleksandroff a simple question gets you a jab because,,,, well I really don't need to stoop to your level.
Symbols and Nationalism go hand and hand. This topic is about Nationalism and all things attached to it. This is a symbol that represents Macedonians. I am a Macedonian and I am a Christian. Both these symbols represent who I am and what I am. Does my avatar represent something to you other than what I stated?

[TrueMacedonian]

Speaking of "black and white stuff", do you know the difference between a theory or 'interpretation' and facts and evidence on which that theory is based?

I asked you to cite what I've said about Pribichevich that led you to conclude that I am duping people? Why haven't you cited me yet? Is it because it is you who is trying to dupe people?

I asked you whether you are accusing Indigen of having misquoted Pribichevich in the quote I reposted above? Why haven't you answered that question directly? Why have you completely ignored the specific quote used by Indigen and focused on other quotes from Pribichevich, when the issue is not citing everything Pribichevich has ever claimed, but whether Indigen has misquoted him in the specific thread that you attempted to use as proof of your accusation that he has been 'duping' people? Is it because you have made false accusations and do not have the grace to admit it?

Aleksandroff I think you need to go back a page or two, click the link, read indy's "indigenous cultural theory" utilizing select Pribichevich text, and what Pribichevich actually states in full, on the same pages mind you, and what he really states about the Macedonians from antiquity and today. Read who he compares the dances with and read one more time the first page. Or are you as select as indy in what you prefer to see than what is really there?

[aleksandrov]

I think you need to read a book on Nationalism before you continue on this topic.

When you answer my question about what academic credentials you base your laughable pretense of superior research and analysis skills on, I will be happy to start quoting sources to further expose your vacuousness.

Are you prepared to put yourself to a serious test?

Seriously. I'm not joking with you either. You are just a repetetive parakeet right now. If you do not understand my response then it's time to pack it up Aleksandroff.

TM,

How long do you think I am going to force myself to be polite and courteous to a quasi-intellectual dilettante who not persistently tries to cloud or trivialize the Macedonian ethnic identity and its roots with quasi-research and pathetic attempts at logical and critical analysis, but even has the hypocritical nerve to question the credibility of others and dares to change my surname by distorting the Macedonian language in a manner characteristic of MPO?

Since you have no problem with boldness, let me get to the underlying point behind this thread of yours and ask you this:

Do you agree with the theory Misirkov put forward at one point in his life when he suggested that the Macedonians of his days were Bulgarians who were evolving into a separate nation due to their distinct political predicament?

Stop your disingenuous pussy-footing around and be man enough to state what you really stand for, the way your ideological equivalent (but intellectual superior) Ljubcho Georgievski has been.

[aleksandrov]

Aleksandroff I think you need to go back a page or two, click the link, read indy's "indigenous cultural theory" utilizing select Pribichevich text, and what Pribichevich actually states in full, on the same pages mind you, and what he really states about the Macedonians from antiquity and today. Read who he compares the dances with and read one more time the first page. Or are you as select as indy in what you prefer to see than what is really there?

I think you need to stop your snaky avoidance of direct questions about your unsubstantiated claims and accusations.

You can then read your own thread again and see who has been suggesting that any claim of an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity should rely on the survival of specific 'cultural elements' that existed in Macedonia in ancient times, and what I have had to say about that narrow, or 'select' approach.

[aleksandrov]

This is something that I will have to repost a few times if you are going to insist on evading it:

I think you need to read a book on Nationalism before you continue on this topic.

When you answer my question about what academic credentials you base your laughable pretense of superior research and analysis skills on, I will be happy to start quoting sources to further expose your vacuousness.

Are you prepared to put yourself to a serious test?

Seriously. I'm not joking with you either. You are just a repetetive parakeet right now. If you do not understand my response then it's time to pack it up Aleksandroff.

TM,

How long do you think I am going to force myself to be polite and courteous to a quasi-intellectual dilettante who not persistently tries to cloud or trivialize the Macedonian ethnic identity and its roots with quasi-research and pathetic attempts at logical and critical analysis, but even has the hypocritical nerve to question the credibility of others and dares to change my surname by distorting the Macedonian language in a manner characteristic of MPO?

Since you have no problem with boldness, let me get to the underlying point behind this thread of yours and ask you this:

Do you agree with the theory Misirkov put forward at one point in his life when he suggested that the Macedonians of his days were Bulgarians who were evolving into a separate nation due to their distinct political predicament?

What does being a "True Macedonian" mean to you, exactly? Is it a person who descends from Bulgarians or ethnically neutral Christians who developed
a new Macedonian nation in the 20th century?

Stop your disingenuous pussy-footing around and be man enough to state what you really stand for, the way your ideological equivalent (but intellectual superior) Ljubcho Georgievski has been.

[Pelister]

TM,

You have been inferring that Macedonians are not indigenous to Macedonia. You have provided a definition of the concept ‘indigenous’, however, you have failed to demonstrate how the Macedonians do not meet your own criteria and you have failed to address the points made in relation to how Macedonians do meet your criteria.

I could agree with you to the extent that all humans are essentially related and stem from our original ancestors and have since settled/populated the earth. From this view, the concepts of being ‘indigenous’ to a particular region or country or being a ‘settler’ of a particular region or country are essentially political constructs. Being political constructs, it is interesting that you adhere to the view that Macedonians are not indigenous to Macedonia – because the only other option is that they are settlers. The ‘settler’ theory, in my view, was essentially a pan-Slavist construct that was instrumental in “uniting” the Yugo-Slavs under one state and denying the Macedonian people their freedom.

I think that this passage sums up whats going on.

I would also agree that those who make the case that we are not indigenous must be suggesting we are the descendants of 5th century invaders, or immigrants...etc.

Some Macedonians like to point out that the New Greeks are not the descendants of the ancient Greeks because of wave after wave of invaders moving into that region. I think what is happening here is that they then apply the same 'vague analogue' to our region and our past. I never proscribed to this view. In fact I think it dangerous for us to engage in this kind of interpretive mischief, and short hand history to describe people, places and events. The 'Slav' thesis has to be dropped I think by Macedonians wanting to make a point about who the Greeks, are today.

Why all this doubt? Why question our indigenous culture, and our indigenous identity? Its a process - The West for the better part of a century now has been 'Slavicising' the region, and 'Slavicising' us. Its all about the 'Slavicisation' of our history and our culture over the last century. It takes alot of discipline to see through it.

[TrueMacedonian]

When you answer my question about what academic credentials you base your laughable pretense of superior research and analysis skills, I will be happy to start quoting sources to further expose your vacuousness.

Are you prepared to put yourself to a serious test?

What does it matter what I hold and what you hold? I wonder if you even have high school diploma reading your responses to me.

TM,

How long do you think I am going to force myself to be polite and courteous to a quasi-intellectual dilettante who not persistently tries to cloud or trivialize the Macedonian ethnic identity and its roots with quasi-research and pathetic attempts at logical and critical analysis, but even has the hypocritical nerve to question my credibility and change my surname by distorting the Macedonian language into an MPO version of the Macedonian language?

Polite and courteous all you've done is act like an . Your credibility isn't in question. Your character right now is. Unfortunately it impedes into your credibility Alek (is this better for you,,, oh wait when the table is turned on your childish temper tantrum and now that I'm altering your name like you did mine I guess baby Alek doesn't like that ).

Since you have no problem with boldness, let me get to the underlying point behind this thread of yours and ask you this:

Do you agree with the theory Misirkov put forward at one point in his life when he suggested that the Macedonians of his days were Bulgarians who were evolving into a separate nation due to their distinct political predicament?

That depends on what he meant by stating "Bulgarian"? Do you know how many meanings this term has? Have you seen the "analysis and research" the MTO has provided here, including myself - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...p?t=835&page=6

How about we read a little of what Misirkov says here;

Ниiе видофме во грците дуовни господари и верцки началници. Ниiе бефме и кон ниф, исто така принизени, као и кон турците. Грците со црквата не експлоатираа нас и сакаа да извршат под турцкото владичество тоа, шчо не можаа до него. За да не претопат нас, они избегуваа да не вел'ат со народното име.

Они ни кажуваа, да сме биле ниiе рисiани, и ниiе тврдефме:
абре брате, рисiани сме, ами шчо сме! Кога ке се расрдеа на нас, и ке не наречеа тврдоглаи бугари, ниiе пак ке речефме: е пак така си iет: вистина рисiани сме, ама не сме образуани, као грците! Нашите глаи не разбираат; ниiе сме бугари.

Со iеден збор во турцко време ниiе потврдуафме и се согласуафме со се, шчо ке ни кажеа турците и грците.

Но турците со тоа, шчо не нарекоа нас: раiати и г'аури, гледаа на нас као на л'уг'е, не од известна народност, а шчо сет во известен однос кон ниф, господарите и праоверните.

Во истата смисл'а употребуафме и ниiе, односуаiки кон себе, тиiе имиiн'а. Значит турците во нивната држаа не признаваа народности. Исто така не знаiефме за ниф и ниiе.

Грците исто така не разликуваа словенцките народности и сите словени, особено тоi дел од ниф, шчо им причини наi големи неприiатности и се наог'аше во турцко време под нивната опека, они го презираа и го велеа со презреното за ниф име „бугари".

Но тоа име искажуаше презреiн'ето на грците, а не и достоинства на бугарите, затоа се сопроводуаше со зборот тврдоглав или „хондрокефалос".

Taken from: http://www.misirkov.org/sostauala.htm

This is what I agree with Misirkov on. Do you agree with this? If yes why? If no why?

Stop your disingenuous pussy-footing around and be man enough to state what you really stand for, the way your ideological equivalent (but intellectual superior) Ljubcho Georgievski has been.

I stand for being a Macedonian who feels more attatched to his Christian past than a pagan past. I feel our ancestors like Cyril and Methodius did more for not just our people but a wider range of peoples than Alexander ever did. They left a lasting legacy for people in Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and etc who owe homage to these two brothers born in Macedonia.
Do you understand now? Or would you like me to go on?

[Pelister]

I don't think you are able to understand the point of this debate either.

It's easer to label everyone who does not fit some of yours conceptions.
The "gene purity" was used several times on other threads by Indigen and such have been also encouraged by other members.

I see no problem on answering TM questions instead of accusing him of his supposed 'grkoman' view because I face my own inability to answer. I really don't see what is the problem to be more selfcritical and provide more solid ground for our arguments.

However I see pretty much destructive trend going on here when there our personal opinions does not match some of you always tend to etiquette the opposite opinion as "ramkovist, gligorovist, grkoman, bulgaroman", etc. etc.
Everyone have to understand that such belief polarization is not productive for either of us.



Pelister,

the ethnic identity doesn't require a gene purity to carry his name, that's the point.

If the Greeks can declare themselfs as "direct descendants" of the ancient Hellenes than I don't see a problem why should we be an exception.

The arguments you mentioned clearly justify every our right on our descendancy and I can't really understand how you manage to include some Slavs in this discussion.

For their case "Slavs" I have specially opened a new thread on History based on several studies all of them opposite of the migration theory, but unfortunatelly I haven't seen any of you to replay on that thread.

I make a point of not including 'Slavs' in our identity because of the vague use of the term in the West and because it is like 'the Orient' a construction of the West and used of course to good effect by Russian imperialists. There is too much Western domination associated with the term to extricate ourselves from it cleanly. The thesis that we are not indigenous, is a Greek thesis. The hypothesis is a colonial one developed by our enemies. What I was saying was that some Macedonians who apply 'a theory' to the New Greeks find that they are compelled to also apply it to the Macedonians, which is why you have Macedonian questioning our indigenous identity. This approach undermines who we are and FAILS to take into account our specific conditions, and our authenticity. I personally believe we do not need to prove it, but people keep asking the question.

[TrueMacedonian]

What does being a "True Macedonian" mean to you, exactly? Is it a person who descends from Bulgarians or ethnically neutral Christians who developed
a new Macedonian nation in the 20th century?

Descended from Bulgarians? Where in the hell did I say this? Before the rise of nationalism Macedonians most likely preferred to call themselves Christians or Muslims. Nationalism took place in Macedonia in the 19th century. If new evidence shows it appeared earlier then so be it. But nationalism finally took a hold of Macedonians, by majority, who felt Macedonian, at the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th century.

[TrueMacedonian]

I think that this passage sums up whats going on.

I would also agree that those who make the case that we are not indigenous must be suggesting we are the descendants of 5th century invaders, or immigrants...etc.

Pelister like I've said before I personally see our Christian ancestors as closer to us in culture and customs than those Macedonians of antiquity. Plain and simple. From when Paul arrived in Macedonia and the first Christian converts of Europe (Macedonians). Cyril and Methodius. Clement and Naum. Etc etc.

[TrueMacedonian]

Anyways Pelister since I see your getting active on this topic would you care to answer this question that I asked you on Maknews?

Who made the rule that we have to be descended from the ancient Macedonians in order to call ourselves Macedonians? Why does it have to stretch back to Filip and Alexander the Great in order for people to be rightful Macedonians?

[Risto the Great]

Descended from Bulgarians? Where in the hell did I say this? Before the rise of nationalism Macedonians most likely preferred to call themselves Christians or Muslims. Nationalism took place in Macedonia in the 19th century. If new evidence shows it appeared earlier then so be it. But nationalism finally took a hold of Macedonians, by majority, who felt Macedonian, at the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th century.

TM, I am not sure what to make of this.
Here is what your answer was about being descended from Bulgarians:

That depends on what he meant by stating "Bulgarian"?

I think I know what you mean. I think anything familiar about Bulgarians is actually Macedonian.

I stand for being a Macedonian who feels more attatched to his Christian past than a pagan past. I feel our ancestors like Cyril and Methodius did more for not just our people but a wider range of peoples than Alexander ever did. They left a lasting legacy for people in Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and etc who owe homage to these two brothers born in Macedonia.

Do you have to stand for anything in relation to this? It could be argued that any pagan rituals that preceded Christianity may well be the unique factors everyone is trying to talk about here. I suspect if Macedonia became a muslim country, using your logic, you may well stand for the Islam era and the enlightened muslim whoever who wrote such important muslim whatevers. I simply don't know how any one period can be embraced in isolation.

Maybe I need to re-read this thread. But what are your conclusions in relation to this thread topic TM?

[Phoenix]

I wonder how much of our pagan past can be found in our culture today, I would imagine it would make interesting reading and study...to place all of our eggs in the religious basket would be to dilute our rich culture and the very evolution of religion itself...i don't think you can have one (religion) without the acknowledgement of the other (paganism)...

[iskra]

I agree Phoenix, if you want to be honest about history you need to try to be inclusive and avoid attempting to hide elements you find distasteful. Though I don't think TM is trying to hide anything, I think he is just saying that on a personal level, he feels closer to this rather than that and I don't think he is suggesting that everyone else has to feel the same way.

From what I have read of this thread, it certainly is not the time for TM or anybody else to be drawing any major conclusions. What this thread has done, is raise some interesting questions that need to be discussed systematically under a variety of headings and probably the best place to do that would be in the history section. There is no need for animosity or for people to try to create taboos about words like "Slav". True historical discussions cannot undermine the existence of any nation. If a nation exists, then it is already historically justified. The rest is just about the ride. We should not confuse the writings of Greeks on Macedonia with historical writing. The writings of Greek historians on Macedonia, mostly do not qualify as historical. Their writing is just mostly political propaganda designed to serve truly nasty ends.