Macedonian Nationalism

[TrueMacedonian]

There's people that say that an indigenous Macedonian culture exists today and has existed since the time of Alexander.

There are people who do not cater to such theories and feel that a Macedonian culture was something that eventually evolved generation to generation into what it is today.

And there are those who feel that this is a recent arrival to the playing field in Macedonia.


How much proof can anyone provide for any of the above?

And if someone has another theory besides the 3 above then list it and explain and provide your evidence.

Also has anyone read any books on the topic of 'Nationalism' itself? If so please provide the sources.

[TrueMacedonian]

It seems that this topic is cryptonite tonight. Ok how about I ask a specific question relevant to Macedonians today.

Who made the rule that we have to be the descendents of the ancient Macedonians in order to call ourselves Macedonian? Why does it have to stretch back to Filip and Alexander the Great in order for people to be rightful Macedonians?

[Rogi]

This topic is not getting interest, perhaps I can derail it with two very different (to each other), yet somewhat related questions (to the topic) and maybe kick some interest.

Has anyone here tried to make a family tree? How far back can you go? If you could go further, would you do so, or would you stop because you'd feel you have nothing in common with those people/ancestors? Throw a large land title in the mix and see how the dynamic changes.

Does anyone here know much about the 'volkisch movement' and what it's fundamental principles were?

[Daniel the Great]

It seems that this topic is cryptonite tonight. Ok how about I ask a specific question relevant to Macedonians today.

Who made the rule that we have to be the descendents of the ancient Macedonians in order to call ourselves Macedonian? Why does it have to stretch back to Filip and Alexander the Great in order for people to be rightful Macedonians?

Very good question TM, i believe that we have the same right to identify our selves as Macedonians as the ancient Macedonians did.
There has a fair amount of evidence that prove that we are Macedonians dating back to the 15th century and even before the 15th century.
So there is no reason to stretch back to the days of the ancient Macedonians.
I also believe we are indigenous to the region of Macedonia.

[Mastika]

This topic is not getting interest, perhaps I can derail it with two very different (to each other), yet somewhat related questions (to the topic) and maybe kick some interest.

Has anyone here tried to make a family tree? How far back can you go? If you could go further, would you do so, or would you stop because you'd feel you have nothing in common with those people/ancestors? Throw a large land title in the mix and see how the dynamic changes.

In my case I have created a family tree going back 7 generations, solely based on the information given to me by my relatives. If I was to seriously attempt the family I do not see why I couldn't go back several more generations.

If I could go back further, yes of course I would do so. However, I have not had enough desire to embark on a full-scale research project. I definately wouldn't stop if I had nothing in common with those ancestors, they would be apart of my heritage whether I would like it or not. If I found out that i had Turkish, or Vlach or Western European heritage for example I believe that I would be just as interested in those people's history/that side of the family. No doubt, somewhere down the track I will have ancestors from other groups, this is the same for every member of any ethnic group.

[Stojacanec]

There is no hard and fast rule out there that we should be decendents of ancient Macedonians.

Certain uneducated modern Greeks created a modern myth that if you call yourself Macedonian today you then speak a slavic language and your history only spans at best from 600 AD.

The same uneducated greeks think that if you give up your own identity and take up a new greek one, your chances of ancestry catapults to around 2000 BC.

We all share a common history. Not one ethnic race owns history.

I think nationalism was born 2-300 years ago. Hence the need to belong to a certain part of history.

[Stojacanec]

My cousin in Macedonia tried to make a family tree. Without trying he came up with ancestors names from the early 1820s. This is proven by tomb stones. My relatives have been known to settle in ROMacedonia and the Aegean.

And that is without trying.

I would like to compare my notes with some of today's greeks that claim they are more Macedonian than me.

[TrueMacedonian]

This topic is not getting interest, perhaps I can derail it with two very different (to each other), yet somewhat related questions (to the topic) and maybe kick some interest.

Has anyone here tried to make a family tree? How far back can you go? If you could go further, would you do so, or would you stop because you'd feel you have nothing in common with those people/ancestors? Throw a large land title in the mix and see how the dynamic changes.

Does anyone here know much about the 'volkisch movement' and what it's fundamental principles were?

Good question Rogi. My uncle has started something like this and it got really difficult for him to get more info to a certain point (mid 19th cent). He did a fairly decent job.

[TrueMacedonian]

Very good question TM, i believe that we have the same right to identify our selves as Macedonians as the ancient Macedonians did.
There has a fair amount of evidence that prove that we are Macedonians dating back to the 15th century and even before the 15th century.
So there is no reason to stretch back to the days of the ancient Macedonians.
I also believe we are indigenous to the region of Macedonia.

Thanks dtg. As far as Macedonians being indigenous to Macedonia how sure of this are you? What evidence is there of this? I ask only because there are Macedonians who self-describe as such today but who were possibly Vlachs 2 centuries ago. Would they be considered anything less now because they would happen to be missing a "Y-chromosome" gene?

[TrueMacedonian]

There is no hard and fast rule out there that we should be decendents of ancient Macedonians.

Certain uneducated modern Greeks created a modern myth that if you call yourself Macedonian today you then speak a slavic language and your history only spans at best from 600 AD.

The same uneducated greeks think that if you give up your own identity and take up a new greek one, your chances of ancestry catapults to around 2000 BC.

We all share a common history. Not one ethnic race owns history.

I think nationalism was born 2-300 years ago. Hence the need to belong to a certain part of history.

Pretty balanced opinion Staojacanec. Have you read any books on Nationalism?

[Stojacanec]

Pretty balanced opinion Staojacanec. Have you read any books on Nationalism?

No I haven't read any books on nationalism as yet TM.

I dare say that would explain alot about why we are in this situation today.

As I tried to point out before the modern greeks are not here because of their connections to antiquity moreover because of the interests of the Great Powers and philhelens at the time.

Therefore, I don't know why we have to prove a connection to antiquity to have a Macedonian identity.

[Risto the Great]

There's people that say that an indigenous Macedonian culture exists today and has existed since the time of Alexander.

There are people who do not cater to such theories and feel that a Macedonian culture was something that eventually evolved generation to generation into what it is today.

And there are those who feel that this is a recent arrival to the playing field in Macedonia.

This clearly follows on from discussions already attracting a significant degree of interest.

I am still a little confused by the term "indigenous culture". If I remove Macedonia (to avoid obvious emotional attachments) and use Greek instead, I cannot think of very much that would qualify as indigenous culture. I would ask any Greek to prove what is able to be readily identified as being representative or symbolic of their indigenous culture. Yet they have a nation.

I will not downplay the use of myths, oral histories, traditions and any other factors that can contribute to a strengthening of national identity. Looking at Rogi's reference to the volkisch movement, I see modern Germany as a strong nation that, aside from its Nazi moment, still celebrates its Germanic history, myths, traditions etc. in one form or another.

Having said that, being modern Macedonians (for me) means being the product of all that Macedonians have endured collectively. Which simply cannot be replicated by any other nation. This is what gives us our unique stamp and what justifies our need for existence.

When my sons go back to Macedonia, some things will be familiar to them, they will be a combination of Macedonian things that are familiar to them in their own household and Western influences which have impacted upon Macedonia. So a fork allowing a divergence of cultures is inevitable every time people migrate.

[Pavel]

Risto: "Having said that, being modern Macedonians (for me) means being the product of all that Macedonians have endured collectively. Which simply cannot be replicated by any other nation. This is what gives us our unique stamp and what justifies our need for existence."

I really like that, nice work.

[aleksandrov]

There's people that say that an indigenous Macedonian culture exists today and has existed since the time of Alexander.

There are people who do not cater to such theories and feel that a Macedonian culture was something that eventually evolved generation to generation into what it is today....

These two concepts do not need to be mutually exclusive. What indigenous culture do you know of that has not "evolved generation to generation into what it is today'?

[fyrOM]

Not wanting to steal DimkoPiperkatas thunder from the thread

Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?

I have posted here as the name of the above thread doesn’t seem quite right.

I just wanted to ask one question.

If as RTG says
Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?
Greece represents our biggest threat to maintaining our identity in the world arena.
Greece does this by attempting to trivialise and denigrate our identity.

And SoM says
Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?
In answer to the original question, the quantity of topics about Greeks is a direct response to the quantity of propaganda that they criminally spread against the Macedonians to their own people and the rest of the world. We must respond to their stupidity and lies, and we will meet them at every challenge, and win this fight.

Then isn’t the core question with regards to our identity are we

1. direct decedents of the Macedonians of Alexanders time or

2. were the Macedonians of Alexanders time originally something different to us and our ancestors were newcomers who either mixed with these ancient Macedonians to produce us and if so when and if they were something different then who were they kin to or

3. were superseded by our ancestors and if so when. Was this action complete or did it force the ancient Macedonians south or out.

These are pretty much the only options.

In general the Greeks assert
1. the ancient Macedonians were something different to our ancestors and that they were kin to the ancient Greeks.

2. They further assert that they are the direct decedents of the ancient Greeks and as the ancient Macedonians were there kin then they also are the decedents of the ancient Macedonians.

3. The so called concession they are making is to acknowledge that our ancestors may have mix with some of the ancient Macedonians to produce us and as such we are a kind of Macedonian or

4. Our ancestors have been there so long we have become a kind of Macedonian with minimal mixing in either case we are a kind of Macedonian hence the demand for a qualifier beit Northern ect.

Does it not seem obvious that to conclusively answer these questions a timeline needs to be established with evidence we are Macedonians beginning with modern times working backwards to Alexanders ancient Macedonians whom both sides seem to agree were Macedonians. A shorter answer would be to establish the ancient Macedonians were not kin to the Greeks. The obvious dilemma to this is the lack of physical written evidence due to the supposed no written Macedonian alphabet but nonetheless as can be found on MTO there is much evidence to support the Macedonian case.

It seems to me that the Greeks have been able to peddle their lies unabated because the Macedonians have never been free to counter until now and also because the west has been in cahoots with the Greeks. Is it not possible to collate and present another inconvenient truth to the world. When they have no answer to the truth it defeats any name negotiations and posses at least a serious question about the rights of Macedonians in the occupied lands if not further as to what is to be done to land that is clearly foreign occupied.

Some have questioned do we need to prove a link to Alexanders day. This is the only accepted by all time that the people were Macedonians.