Macedonian Nationalism

[Bratot]

This is true Bratot, that is why subsequent factors need to be considered to make more specific determinations regarding who these traits originally derived from. Let's compare the Macedonians and the Bulgars. The latter solemnly believe that their nation arrived from somewhere other than the Balkans, and for all intents and purposes, this is what they claim as their historical narrative. The Macedonians didn't originate from somewhere outside of the Balkans, nor do they harbour such fantastic theories. Using these two nations alone to draw a comparison in relation to this particular matter, I would say that the traditional use of the bagpipe would find an older history among the Macedonians than the Bulgars. Same applies for the kolo/oro dances. Of course, today, after centuries of use, it has become a part of Bulgar culture, and, while indigenous to the region in which they now live and the Thracian people they assimilated, it was not indigenous to the people they claim to have primarily descended from, who were the progenitors of their nation.

I agree, blood purity is nonsense, however, DNA research does have its benefits.

There is an arousin question in your comparison, the term - Bulgarian was not indigenous endonym* on the Balkans, so if the nowadays Bulgarians identify with it they could or could not be the true hereditary people of it's terminology. So what were the 'Bulgarians' before they adopted this exonym** ?

*A name used by a people to refer to themselves or their language, as opposed to a name given to them by other groups. For example, Deutschen is the endonym of a people known in English as German.
**a name given to a group or category of people by a secondary person or persons other than the people it refers to.
Exonyms form a typical (but very useful) example of cultural chauvinism.

The Bulgarian identification with this exonym or precizelly exo-ethnonym is a politically occured geographical paradox which forced the Bulgarian national-chauvinist to seek 'historical' justification of providing some sort of 'superiority' of their nation in more directions, but this national complex produced only numerous historical distorsions and identity crisis.
I don't think we can really compare to their case.

[Bratot]

In my opinion we(some of) have fell deep into the nationalist trap set by Greek propaganda where they are claiming that we could not claim the name Macedonia unless we were descendands from the Ancient Macedonians.

Now we can be easily lost in the effort to increase this historical proportion as a condition to be fulfilled in order to provide ourselfs justification of the name we carry.

That's not really necessary nor anyone can really question our right for self identification, we have earned it as every other nation(ethnic group) and beside the positive historical curiousness of our history we shouldn't really put such burden on ourselfs as to 'provide' or 'prove' to the others or us how 'indigenous' we really are.

Unfortunatelly this became part of the argument, instead of other more pertinent things and the issue will remain unsolved for the benefit of Greek policy.

I think no reasonable appeal could cool off the heaten heads but they should at least rethink the sense of their purpose to prove themselfs as Macedonians.

[Bill77]

TM your questions are mind boggling now that i realy think about it but great questions non the less. I will try to comment if you don't mind.

As far as Macedonians being indigenous to Macedonia how sure of this are you?

There is no evidence that they are not the current longest surviving people of this land. You can take both sides of the argument (Ancient Macedonian Theories and Slav Invasion theories) and either way, the current Macedonians have inhabited the land far longer than any modern Greek, Albanian etc. That makes us somewhat Indigenous compared to any other current settlers does it not?

I ask only because there are Macedonians who self-describe as such today but who were possibly Vlachs 2 centuries ago. Would they be considered anything less now because they would happen to be missing a "Y-chromosome" gene?

There are two types of Macedonians IMO and they are Natural Macedonians, There are Naturalized Macedonians, and then there are none of the above.

Natural Macedonian - is someone that has ancestors that originated anywhere with in the Macedonian Borders.

Naturalized Macedonians- are ones that had ancestors that originated over the borders (Such as Vlach, Albanian, Turk, Gypsy) regardless if it was last year or 10 centuries ago. As long as they have a Macedonian consciousness They are no less Macedonian.

None of the above- Albanians and Greeks are an example, who don't have a Macedonian consciousness and put Greek or Albanian interest ahead of Macedonian land, history or culture. They would be considered anything But Macedonians. (I just wished that the Albanians in ROM had follow there kin in Greece. But then again, i am not sure if i realy care)

Before i finish, have a look at what Greeks call a Macedonian lol.


Sofoklis Schortsianitis

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b447/bill77_album/972.jpg

Sofoklis Schortsianitis (Greek: Σοφοκλής Σχορτσιανίτης; born June 11, 1985 in Kavala, Macedonia, Greece) to a Greek father and a Cameroonian mother.

I only found out after a Grkoman told me he is a Macedonian

so who is or is not a Indigenous, naturalized, or have the right to claim being a Macedonian? It depend who you ask. Just don't ask the wacko's next door.

[Mikail]

TM,

I think we can assert that Macedonians have been in Macedonia for a very long time. Our culture, just like every other culture, has been influenced by ruling parties. This is evidenced even today. Travel around the world & see how much American culture has impacted peoples. At the same time, look at at how European migration has impacted the US, Australia etc....

In a recent visit to Heraclea, I learnt that even though the governing power of the day was Roman, the underlying culture in the region was Macedonian and there is evidence of this.

Macedonia's "culture" couldn't have remained constant over the course of some 7000 years. And yes, we did also influence those who ruled over us as well!

[TrueMacedonian]

Aleksandrov

With the standard of 'evidence' you've set above for your own theories, I don't think it's worth putting in much effort to provide you with evidence of the theories you seem to dispute.

You've pointed to no evidence whatsoever of your own theory about the origin or evolution of the Macedonian people. In fact, you have not even adequately articulated what theory you subscribe to.

Why do you bother replying in this topic if you still can't figure out what it's about? You still parrot the same thing over and over again and I have provided the evidence in this topic. If you are incapable of continuing then do us all a favor and quit replying now. I think I have made myself loud and clear already.

[aleksandrov]

TM,

Rest assured that my posts are not intended for your benefit only. But I don't think I will bother with much more of them anyway, since your confusion and the vacuousness of your propositions and inferences are obviously becoming apparent to many, if the sample consisting of those who have replied is anything to go by.

[TrueMacedonian]

Can you specify what kind of "evidence" is actually expected for some people to be 'proved' as being satisfying indigenous?

Some practical example of given evidences would be helpful, I assume the valid deductive arguments to follow.

Here's an example Bratot - http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma...onianLion.html

The Macedonian Lion. Something we have evidence of. The evidence on the lion is good but still slim. We can start with this.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is a good topic and discussion so let's try and put a few things into perspective so we can get something a little more 'definitive' in terms of how we view the history of Macedonians from the ancient times till present. Earlier, with regard to the evolution of Macedonian culture, I stated that:.

There is no doubt that there have been inclusions from foreign elements, so we won't go into detail on that point just yet. However, regarding the refinement or aleteration of existing elements, there is an interesting fact highlighted by John Wilkes with regard to the Illyrians and the continuation of their culture by the 'Slavs'. See below:

It is generally known in Macedonian as an 'oro', but there is absolutely no doubt that this is the same thing as the 'kolo' used by Serbs and others in the vicinity. While the traditional Macedonian gajda usually only has 2-3 pipes and doesn't look like a 'panpipe', it is still an ancient instrument that has significantly old roots in the region, which appears to draw a connection to the culture of the Celts who had onced lived around the Danube river. I believe that these two elements (oro and gajda) represent cultural characteristics that are indigenous to the region, without a doubt. It becomes harder to define these elements specifically as Macedonian by origin when we look at certain others in the region. For example, everybody in the Balkans has a circle dance, but then again, this may have been passed on to them by by the Macedonians or others that have a Thraco-Illyrian origin. The only others who appear to use the gajda as a national or more frequent instrument, aside from the Macedonians, are the Bulgars and Albanians. If 'Bulgari' and 'Shqiptari' use this instrument today it certainly doesn't have anything to with their namesake, as the use of bagpipies in Scotland strongly indicates that this was a tradition of the Celts before their migration westward.

If we can start citing some example in this manner, we should start making genuine progress in identifying more characteristics.

Thank you SoM. This is what I've been looking for and a very good point to start at. Now according to Theophilactus the so-called 'Slavs' carried musical instruments with them (citars) into the Balkans. However Paul Barford doesn't think this account should be relied on.

[TrueMacedonian]

In my opinion we(some of) have fell deep into the nationalist trap set by Greek propaganda where they are claiming that we could not claim the name Macedonia unless we were descendands from the Ancient Macedonians.

Now we can be easily lost in the effort to increase this historical proportion as a condition to be fulfilled in order to provide ourselfs justification of the name we carry.

That's not really necessary nor anyone can really question our right for self identification, we have earned it as every other nation(ethnic group) and beside the positive historical curiousness of our history we shouldn't really put such burden on ourselfs as to 'provide' or 'prove' to the others or us how 'indigenous' we really are.

Unfortunatelly this became part of the argument, instead of other more pertinent things and the issue will remain unsolved for the benefit of Greek policy.

I think no reasonable appeal could cool off the heaten heads but they should at least rethink the sense of their purpose to prove themselfs as Macedonians.

Bratot I think what your post says is the bitter truth for many Macedonians. The need to constantly play the grk game of descendency from the ancients will margianalize us to one period in Macedonia's history and will unfortunately bring insane theories of 70,000 year old writings and the Olympics starting in Macedonia.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM your questions are mind boggling now that i realy think about it but great questions non the less. I will try to comment if you don't mind.


There is no evidence that they are not the current longest surviving people of this land. You can take both sides of the argument (Ancient Macedonian Theories and Slav Invasion theories) and either way, the current Macedonians have inhabited the land far longer than any modern Greek, Albanian etc. That makes us somewhat Indigenous compared to any other current settlers does it not?

There are two types of Macedonians IMO and they are Natural Macedonians, There are Naturalized Macedonians, and then there are none of the above.

Natural Macedonian - is someone that has ancestors that originated anywhere with in the Macedonian Borders.

Naturalized Macedonians- are ones that had ancestors that originated over the borders (Such as Vlach, Albanian, Turk, Gypsy) regardless if it was last year or 10 centuries ago. As long as they have a Macedonian consciousness They are no less Macedonian.

None of the above- Albanians and Greeks are an example, who don't have a Macedonian consciousness and put Greek or Albanian interest ahead of Macedonian land, history or culture. They would be considered anything But Macedonians. (I just wished that the Albanians in ROM had follow there kin in Greece. But then again, i am not sure if i realy care)

Before i finish, have a look at what Greeks call a Macedonian lol.


Sofoklis Schortsianitis

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b447/bill77_album/972.jpg

Sofoklis Schortsianitis (Greek: Σοφοκλής Σχορτσιανίτης; born June 11, 1985 in Kavala, Macedonia, Greece) to a Greek father and a Cameroonian mother.

I only found out after a Grkoman told me he is a Macedonian

so who is or is not a Indigenous, naturalized, or have the right to claim being a Macedonian? It depend who you ask. Just don't ask the wacko's next door.

Bill lol @ the 'Macedonian' in that picture lol.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

I think we can assert that Macedonians have been in Macedonia for a very long time. Our culture, just like every other culture, has been influenced by ruling parties. This is evidenced even today. Travel around the world & see how much American culture has impacted peoples. At the same time, look at at how European migration has impacted the US, Australia etc....

In a recent visit to Heraclea, I learnt that even though the governing power of the day was Roman, the underlying culture in the region was Macedonian and there is evidence of this.

Macedonia's "culture" couldn't have remained constant over the course of some 7000 years. And yes, we did also influence those who ruled over us as well!

Mikail can you provide us with that evidence from Heraclea?

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

Rest assured that my posts are not intended for your benefit only. But I don't think I will bother with much more of them anyway, since your confusion and the vacuousness of your propositions and inferences are obviously becoming apparent to many, if the sample consisting of those who have replied is anything to go by.

That's fine Aleksandrov. So far everyone else has been answering this topic.

[Bratot]

Here's an example Bratot - http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma...onianLion.html

The Macedonian Lion. Something we have evidence of. The evidence on the lion is good but still slim. We can start with this.

Fair enough, than I suppose can open a simillar thread about the 'falconry' in Macedonian tradition.

Enjoy:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=64961#post64961

and let me know what you think of

[Vangelovski]

Aleksandrov


Why do you bother replying in this topic if you still can't figure out what it's about? You still parrot the same thing over and over again and I have provided the evidence in this topic. If you are incapable of continuing then do us all a favor and quit replying now. I think I have made myself loud and clear already.

TM,

I'm also trying to work out what your point is. You haven't really provided anything other than a vague question mark over the ability of Macedonians to claim Macedonia as their homeland.

You are vaguely insinuating (as I understand it) that Macedonians do not originate from Macedonia, however, you have not stated where you think they originate from, why it is you believe this is the case and what you believe the consequences are, if any.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot I think what your post says is the bitter truth for many Macedonians. The need to constantly play the grk game of descendency from the ancients will margianalize us to one period in Macedonia's history and will unfortunately bring insane theories of 70,000 year old writings and the Olympics starting in Macedonia.

I think you are looking at this completely wrong.
The argument in this regard is that Macedonians descend from the ancient Macedonians in no lesser manner than modern Greeks descend from ancient Greeks. When I say modern Greeks, I cannot include the people who came from Turkey and beyond last century.