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View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes 2 4.35%
No 44 95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #6511
vicsinad
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Clearly you have amnesia:

If you are "more" concerned about one issue over another. This implies levels of importance. Clearly I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. You appear to have some kind of short term memory problem.

Try again.
That implies that level of importance of what I CARE about, not about the level of importance that political national boundaries have had on affecting cultures.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:46 PM   #6512
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
I think we need a rule against stupid analogies. Too many of them on the MTO at the moment.

The views that I specifically call anti-Macedonian, are those that work against Macedonian freedom and that work against the human rights of Macedonians. I'm not referring to some vague notions, but specific and concrete policies, such as the Badinter Prinicple.

You've been avoiding the Badinter Principle like the plague lately. You said you support it but you do not support the other elements of the Framework Agreement. How is that possible? RtG is completely right when he says that it is inextricably linked to the FA. The Badinter Principle was designed SOLEY and SPECIFICALLY to protect the "other elements", or special privileges, given to the Albanians under the Framework Agreement. It serves no other purpose. How is it that you can support it and then claim not to support the special privileges it was designed to protect?
Start making sense and things will start making sense.

Let's break it down into steps, because you've been quite slow:

I'm for the Badinter Principle...take it out of the context of the OFA, I'm for it.
I'm for what the Badinter Principle does in theory...to protect minority rights.
I'm not for many of the rights, or privileges, that the OFA guarantees to ethnic Albanians.
I see it this way: the drafters of the OFA could have found MULTIPLE different ways to enforce its measures. They didn't need the Badinter Principle -- they just used that mechanism. Does that make the mechanism in itself bad? No.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:52 PM   #6513
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Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
Start making sense and things will start making sense.

Let's break it down into steps, because you've been quite slow:

I'm for the Badinter Principle...take it out of the context of the OFA, I'm for it.
I'm for what the Badinter Principle does in theory...to protect minority rights.
I'm not for many of the rights, or privileges, that the OFA guarantees to ethnic Albanians.
I see it this way: the drafters of the OFA could have found MULTIPLE different ways to enforce its measures. They didn't need the Badinter Principle -- they just used that mechanism. Does that make the mechanism in itself bad? No.
Yes, it still makes the mechanism bad. It essentially means that the vote of an individual from one ethnic group is worth more than the vote of [insert as many as necessary] individuals from other ethnic groups. This is a peversion of democracy and natural/human rights.

In the specific Macedonian context, it means that the vote of one Albanian is worth more than the votes of four non-Albanian citizens, whether they are Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs etc. In the Macedonian context, it means that one ethnic group is above all other ethnic groups, including the majority and other smaller minorities. Why is this particular ethnic group of such importance? What makes their natural and civil rights more important than those of eveyone else, majority and other minorities included?
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:57 PM   #6514
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vicsinan up to now you have asked a lot of questions & we have given you a lot of answers.But you seem to be abrogating as to why you favour the badinter principle.We have been open to you & you have been evasive.Why what are you hiding,you make it clear that you are pro albanian you have chosen your anti stance.So you are claiming to be macedonian after that,you don't desrve the title macedonian.Predavnik would be more appropriate.That is you just want to give everything to the albanians also you should take glory with your new name the fyrom or fyromian that is more suitable as you are an apolegetic to that end.Where as in contrast the members who are real macedonians unlike the fyromanians desrvedly can be proud as they follow the correct path of the macedonian cause & we will not deviate from it or apologise for being like that.We hold what is reveered & we nurture our identity of who we are & we exhibita rightous macedonian character.Contrast this with present macedonia that is on a disaster collision with itself & is on an anti macedonian slide why?The reason is people are mentally enslaved they have left others to dictate their fate,In other words they got no balls,guts or fortitude to stand & speak on their own.The people need reawakening & they need to know the truth because the truth will set them free.Yes that's right knowing the truth,you will get a glad reaction of what the macedonian cause is then you will empowered to act & free yourself of the enslaved slavery caused by our own people, other people who hate us & that speaks volumes.Our brothers & sisters are payiing the price of what other macedonians who are anti macedonian they are constantly enslaved the slave mindset.All macedonians need to revere & nurture the cause.The message has to get out of hope & that there is a way out for macedonia & that doesn't involve compromising or capitulating itself.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:01 PM   #6515
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Why is this particular ethnic group of such importance? What makes their natural and civil rights more important than those of eveyone else, majority and other minorities included?
I've already explained my views on that.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #6516
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I've already explained my views on that.
No you haven't. You talked about minority rights in general, not about why ONE minority is above all other minorities and the majority. Further, you have never stated what "rights" exactly you would like to see protected by the Badinter Prinicple.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:19 PM   #6517
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
No you haven't. You talked about minority rights in general, not about why ONE minority is above all other minorities and the majority. Further, you have never stated what "rights" exactly you would like to see protected by the Badinter Prinicple.
To your first point, the Badinter Principle does not do that and I've already explained why. I don't tolerate incompetent readers.

To your second point, yes I have...but no I haven't talked about the Badinter Principle protecting privileges under the OFA because I don't agree with those privileges.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:25 PM   #6518
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Originally Posted by vicsinad View Post
To your first point, the Badinter Principle does not do that and I've already explained why. I don't tolerate incompetent readers.

To your second point, yes I have...but no I haven't talked about the Badinter Principle protecting privileges under the OFA because I don't agree with those privileges.
Victor, now you are just being intellectually dishonest. The Badinter Principle, in the Macedonian context, applies only to the Albanians as no other minority group has the voting power to actually exercise it. So in the Macedonian context, it makes the Albanian vote worth more than not only the Macedonian vote, but the vote of every other minority. It is also likely to do this in practice in many other states if it were to be applied there. This practical fact cannot be ignored and you are yet to address it.

Secondly, you have not stated what specific rights you would like to be protected under a Badinter Principle, but if you think you have, please point out where or repeat them here.
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The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:36 PM   #6519
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Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
Victor, now you are just being intellectually dishonest. The Badinter Principle, in the Macedonian context, applies only to the Albanians as no other minority group has the voting power to actually exercise it. So in the Macedonian context, it makes the Albanian vote worth more than not only the Macedonian vote, but the vote of every other minority. It is also likely to do this in practice in many other states if it were to be applied there. This practical fact cannot be ignored and you are yet to address it.

Secondly, you have not stated what specific rights you would like to be protected under a Badinter Principle, but if you think you have, please point out where or repeat them here.
To your first point, I addressed Badinter in theory and the implementation of Badinter in actuality.

To your second point, I've already explained my views on that.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #6520
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To your first point, I addressed Badinter in theory and the implementation of Badinter in actuality.

To your second point, I've already explained my views on that.
No Victor, you have done no such thing. No amount of worming will get you out of this one. Either post a link to where you think you've addressed these points or address them here again.
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If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
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