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View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes 2 4.35%
No 44 95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-19-2010, 12:34 PM   #1591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzog View Post
No organisation is ever beyond scrutiny, regardless of their level of influence. However, in my eyes, scrutiny is a careful observation of faults with appropriate suggestions for reform (namely by those parties affected by these faults). All I have ever seen is misguided criticism underpinned by a powerplay between the stakeholders. As such, the problems in the diaspora can be seen as a reflection of the problems in the Republic, and I don't think it's a coincidence.
As a matter fact the Diaspora is indeed very unified and knows exactly what it wants. Where do you get this crap? It's the UMD that has no idea what the Diaspora wants and that's why it's being rejected by more and more people.

If UMD can't hold up to scrutiny but instead have to discredit and label those who criticize them all over the internet then I'd say they have some issues including insecurity and it shows. They can't just let their work and actions do the talking, instead they have you, Mr. Buktop, Macknews et al doing their PR for them.

People have alot of concerns with UMD in particular it's partnering with the MPO and giving that Non Macedonian, Bulgaroman, imposter organization legitimacy. That's for starters.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:51 PM   #1592
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Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Buktop, what planet have you been living on...the ONLY leverage the 'greeks' have against us is their veto power in the EU and NATO, their whole strategy is about keeping the 'balance of power' in their favour
Right Phoenix... Seeing as you know so much about the current predicament why don't you tell me which country supplies 60% of our gas? which country 60% of our exports travel through? You need to think outside the veto box.


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Buktop we have to move away from this ignorant notion that other countries will 'vote' on whether we should have our own identity.
Excuse me Phoenix, I forgot that the UN would just recognize us because we want to be recognized. How foolish of me to think that Macedonia requires 2/3rds majority in the UN to overthrow the f..RoM terminology. You are right, maybe we should leave the UN, IMF, WTO, World Bank and any other organization that uses f..RoM.


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Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Buktop stop making excuses for an appalling strategy adopted by the Republic of Macedonia and supported by the likes of UMD...the negotiations over our identity need to cease immediately.
No excuses here. Negotiating identity is not on the table, and if it was I would want it to cease immediately as well.



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Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Buktop thats a stupid analogy because we don't have control over our destiny to enter your imaginary 'shelter', the door-bitch controls who enters and we're out in the cold...
I'm sorry that you don't understand the analogy, perhaps I will draw you a picture with crayons next time.

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Buktop, you're living in la la land...the 'greeks' aren't going to allow us equal billing anytime soon, certainly not while we're stuck in this silly game of 'compromising' our identity
The Greeks don't have to allow us equal billing, that is why we are pursuing the ICJ case, and attempting to reach 2/3rds majority in the UN. Then we are currently under way with the corridor 8, 10 projects, heavy rail-lines to Albania and Kosovo, Airport renovations in Skopje and Ohrid, a new cargo airport in Stip, and are pursuing new hydro-electric plants as well as other means of energy production. Given all this, Greece won't have any say at all in what Macedonia does, but these things take time. I want my sovereignty to be assured, not short lived and fruitless.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Buktop, stop the bullshit there...the Macedonian Government has no right to negotiate my identity, no man, not even Meto can do that...the problem is magnified when organizations like UMD who claim they represent the Macedonian diaspora undertake an appalling strategy that legitimizes this entire sham...
Take it up with the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. UMD does not control government policy, your problems are with the government, and the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, because if they actually gave a shit, they could have stopped this at any time.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:52 PM   #1593
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If any of the forum readers are coming to the premiere, buy your tickets soon from http://www.umdiaspora.org - tickets are selling fast, and we only started promoting last Thursday. At this rate, we may have to do a second screening.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:57 PM   #1594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Ok, so in all your claims of objectivity you are still taking a subjective stance. Were it anybody else in the world making this statement, where you don't have an interest in the matter, you would see his words for what they are.

I am becoming rather tired of having to re-post the same analysis on this dispicable interview of Meto's, and I have had it with certain people here who read only what they want to see. So, I will do it again for the last time:



Here he advocates for a name other than (Republic of) Macedonia - Anybody that doesn't consider this an advocacy for a name change is lying to themselves or has an agenda.

Here he clearly advocates for a bilateral name. This is 2 names other than the (Republic of) Macedonia that he has advocated for, for 2 different uses.

Here he is basically saying, so long as it is not for the UN, EU, NATO or Greece, the (Republic of) Macedonia is sufficient.

Don't kid yourselves for Christ's sake, any person reading or listening to his interview will notice that Meto is basically proposing 3 names. Either that, or Meto himself doesn't know what he is rambling on about in the interview.


Sorry brother, that is a weak point for an argument in this case. If we were to apply the same principle to the following sentence from Meto: I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable - One could then point out that Meto isn't even 100% sure if a compromise is unacceptable, he only thinks it is unacceptable. See what I mean?

Some people think Meto is a good bloke, some people think he isn't so good, others think he is an incapable fool. Put all personal sentiments about the guy aside, and see this interview for what it is. I don't care what his press releases say now, at the time of the ZMR interview, Meto advocates and supports a name change. His reasons are irrelevant (unless he chooses to explain them and acknowledge the error, which he hasn't), what stands out above all is the fact that he suggested a name other than the (Republic of) Macedonia for international and bilateral use.
Your points are taken SoM. However I don't agree with your point 3 ;

Here he is basically saying, so long as it is not for the UN, EU, NATO or Greece, the (Republic of) Macedonia is sufficient.

Where does he state that here?;

But I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable to the Macedonian people nor the Macedonian nation.

As for the "political identifier" like I stated on page 1 I think Meto should elaborate more on this "political modifier" and if it would only be temporary (like the FYR name) until the UN wakes up or if this name were to stay only for international use.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:50 PM   #1595
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Well done! Keep us informed when it will be screened in Australia, hopefully Sydney
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:08 PM   #1596
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Charlatan,

The Gligorovist policies you are advocating would be more suited to Maknews where the readership is generally more gullible. You should note that Gligorov already used the “temporary” argument 17 years ago (where he defined “temporary” as 3 months – i.e., Macedonia would only be using FYROM in the UN for 3 months by which point our subservient vassal politicians told us they would have Macedonia recognised). However, even then, long-time activists strongly argued against this, as it was likely to become much more “permanent”.

Two years later, the Gligorovist politicians signed the Interim Accord – another “temporary” arrangement. Since then, the vast majority of politicians refuse to even consider revising the unjust and “temporary” capitulations that they carried out as part of that Accord.

These “temporary” arrangements that you keep advocating for have already been put in place and have yielded NO results. In fact, they’ve only lead to further capitulations and will lead to even more.

Are you able to provide even one example of a SUCCESSFUL liberation movement that SUCCESSFULLY pursued the type of “temporary” Glogorovist-style policies you are advocating?
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:24 PM   #1597
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It will be screened in Australia soon.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:25 PM   #1598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian
Where does he state that here?;

But I don't think a compromise on its international name is acceptable to the Macedonian people nor the Macedonian nation.
He doesn't have to state it, because if 'democratic' is for International orgs and another name for bilateral, it should be safe to assume that for all uses outside of those 2 just outlined, it would be Republic of Macedonia.
Quote:
As for the "political identifier" like I stated on page 1 I think Meto should elaborate more on this "political modifier" and if it would only be temporary (like the FYR name) until the UN wakes up or if this name were to stay only for international use.
But Meto hasn't elaborated. He hasn't explained his position. All he has done is provide some story about how the Macedonian Government were apparently prepared to accept a name change, and he (Meto) basically jumped on the 'democratic' bandwagon. Ironically, he still doesn't believe his statements indicate advocacy for a name change, which is where he lost respect from me.

TM, you are a logical fellow, think about what you are defending here. I have no 'axe to grind' against Meto or the UMD, I call it as it is, the man calls for a name other than (Republic of) Macedonia for International organisations and bilaterally with Greece.

Why is this so hard for him to admit, even though it is caught on camera?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzog
For me, to advocate a name change he would have to say and emphasise that Macedonia must change its constitutional name. He barely does this.
He 'barely' does it means what, that he 'sort' of does it? It's sad that you find such vague and unclear statements acceptable, this sort of talk that lacks principle and character from our apparent 'leaders' is a reason why we find ourselves in such a position at the moment.
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In this interview he says that Macedonians should have the right to the Constitutional name they chose upon independence, but that his organisation would accept a politically modified name for bilateral relations with Greece and entry into international organisations.
No, that is not correct, and you are deliberately manipulating his words to suit your assertions. He never says that the changed name with a political modifier should be used with Greece, he cites it in relation to the International arena specifically. He then goes on to say that there should be a bilateral name agreed upon with Greece. You are trying too hard to read between the lines, and as a result of your own 'beef' with Pelister and co. you have assumed the role of a UMD protector under the cover of some very weak 'objectivity'.
Quote:
If you feel that this is advocating a wholesale name change then so be it....
Dzog, I never said 'wholesale' anything. Please refrain from making these sorts of false assumptions that seem to be customary at Maknews.
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.....don't for a second think that your interpretation is objective, particularly when you clearly have some beef with the UMD.
Of course it is, I have only been involved in this discussion as of late, I have often stuck up for the UMD on other issues in the past, I don't agree with Pelister's assertions that the UMD are anti-Macedonians, there are some things that Vangelovski says that I also don't agree with, if anybody is objective here about this issue it is me, and hardly yourself, who has his own 'history' with the Pelister's and others on the other side of the coin. I have no bad 'history' with any of the parties.
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Now, please explain how I am taking a subjective stance?
You know how, you are refusing to accept the obvious and trying hard to re-interpret what Meto said. Your argument becomes worse off with each such attempt, and it's a shame, because you too are a logical guy, but your own 'beef' obliges you to defend the enemy of your enemy, so to speak.
Quote:
You can cast your stones now.....
And it's a shame that you feel the need to get so defensive and make such suggestions. Relax.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:59 PM   #1599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski
These “temporary” arrangements that you keep advocating for have already been put in place and have yielded NO results. In fact, they’ve only lead to further capitulations and will lead to even more.
That is a strong point, and cannot be argued against. For how much longer are we going to serve the interests of others? For almost 2 decades of talks and negotiations, practically nothing has changed in this field.
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Old 01-19-2010, 08:11 PM   #1600
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Who is going to screen it in Australia?

We have the intention of screening it as the premier movie for the 2010 Macedonian Film Festival.

It would be kind of uncool if another organisation, whose sole purpose is not the screening of Macedonian films, screens it before hand - but I suppose that's Macedonian co-ordination (or lack thereof) for you.

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