United Macedonia Diaspora

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

I don't think your naivety quite realises the significance of that. But I wouldn't expect someone of your 'calibre' to appreciate this.

Few Macedonian organisations have been able to organise and commit intelligent and effective people. But the course UMD took, under Meto's leadership drove them off. I was neither the first nor the last to go.

There were other activities that UMD achieved, which were of value, but some of them were undertaken by myself and some others, without the "blessing" of Meto who along with his cronies resisted forcefully. So, I'm not sure whether that can be technically credited to UMD or not. A lot of this has already been discussed, you might want to read through this thread before parroting the same old stuff.

Get to your point Victor, this is the last time I will respond unless you actually have something of substance to say rather than just repeating the same old BS that has already been addressed.

I guess there's something there.

Well, in general, I'm curious as how the MTO plans on achieving this:

"The unity of all Macedonians on the principles, objectives and achievement of the Macedonian cause as defined by this declaration."

This, of course, is one of your stated aims. How does MTO reconcile its actions, statements and attitudes toward other Macedonians with the above stated aim?

You attack and render useless any Macedonian who does not see things quite the same as you. Yet, you claim to want to unite ALL Macedonians under these principles. So, what steps is the MTO taking to unite ALL Macedonians (including members and leaders of the UMD) under these principles? Surely, at one point, even post-resignation from UMD, you acknowledged that UMD had done a great deal for the Macedonian Cause (your words). At one point, you would even acknowledge they were doing something good for the Macedonian Cause; now, they are a bunch of cronies (yet, Macedonian cronies). How does your approach to dealing with Macedonians, and the UMD in particular, these past 4 years further MTO's goal of uniting ALL Macedonians?

And if the MTO does have a "plan" (a written one, perhaps?) regarding this, do you think it is working?

Or is that specific aim simply "all talk" in order to get some Macedonians on board with you?

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

I guess there's something there.

Well, in general, I'm curious as how the MTO plans on achieving this:

"The unity of all Macedonians on the principles, objectives and achievement of the Macedonian cause as defined by this declaration."

This, of course, is one of your stated aims. How does MTO reconcile its actions, statements and attitudes toward other Macedonians with the above stated aim?

You attack and render useless any Macedonian who does not see things quite the same as you. Yet, you claim to want to unite ALL Macedonians under these principles. So, what steps is the MTO taking to unite ALL Macedonians (including members and leaders of the UMD) under these principles? Surely, at one point, even post-resignation from UMD, you acknowledged that UMD had done a great deal for the Macedonian Cause (your words). At one point, you would even acknowledge they were doing something good for the Macedonian Cause; now, they are a bunch of cronies (yet, Macedonian cronies). How does your approach to dealing with Macedonians, and the UMD in particular, these past 4 years further MTO's goal of uniting ALL Macedonians?

And if the MTO does have a "plan" (a written one, perhaps?) regarding this, do you think it is working?

Or is that specific aim simply "all talk" in order to get some Macedonians on board with you?

Thats a fair question Victor, I don't know why you danced around for so long instead of just coming out and asking.

Firstly, the MTO has committed itself to working towards the unity of all Macedonians along the principles we have put forward in our definition of the cause. Whether we, or anyone for that matter, can actually achieve that is a completely different issue, to which the answer is probably no. But why set our sights low?

There will always be Macedonians who, like yourself, support anti-Macedonian ideas (such as the Badinter Principle). UMD falls into this category. Many people, including myself, had pleaded with UMD for years to rethink their position, but they have refused to even discuss their views. They've taken an anti-Macedonian stance all on their own - we did not force or encourage them to do so.

The more patriotic Macedonians left UMD, the more UMD, led by Meto, took an anti-Macedonian stand. Their support for the Interim Accord, name negotiations, name changes, the Framework Agreement and even their own suggestions for name changes were all their own ideas and their own policies. What once started out with promise has now become the leading anti-Macedonian organisation in the diaspora. In the begining, UMD was not what it is today - it actually had a purpose and a plan. I didn't agree with 100 per cent of that, but the fundamentals were good enough (I thought at the time) to be able to work with. Now, UMD is completely lost.

Pointing this out is not an "attack". Its calling a spade a spade and is an integral part of the free and democratic exchange of ideas. And they are certainly not useless as human beings or even as Macedonians in general, but they are useless in relation to achieving the Macedonian cause. In fact, I would go beyond useless, I would say they are making it harder because they are actively working against it by continuingly advocating for EU/NATO membership under the FYROM terminoloyg, continuingly advocating for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement and so on. When someone is working against the cause, how can they at the same time be of any use in achieving it? How do you reconcile that?

Maybe rather than parroting the same old UMD lines, you should actually think about what your saying. I think the more pertinent question here is, what do you disagree with in the cause and why?

[Risto the Great]

vicsinad, you've really got to look at yourself. You agree with the Badinter principle yet can't seem to explain why you do not support the Framework Agreement. We have taken you to task on the matter and you have simply "bitched out". Don't worry, we don't want you on board, you are of no use whatsoever to the Macedonian Cause if your support for Badinter is any indication.

We definitely want all Macedonians to unite under the Macedonian Cause as defined. Ones like you are simply not welcome until you fully grasp the significance of and embrace the Cause (as defined).

I note your bitching about the Cause was limited to asking God to help us. You quite possibly disagree with a whole lot of other things but have not mentioned them. In fact, I doubt you disagree with any other matter but simply have not extended a logical analysis of them to your own demented perspective as they relate to your personal show of faith in the Badinter principle.

One day when you feel particularly impassioned you might realise this field for cultural competition does indeed have rules and that you have broken one of them rather severely. Feel free to go back to bitching away. You might even become SDSm's new poster boy one day.

The MTO does indeed wish to be a uniting force for all who agree with the Cause as defined.

This isn't the UMD. We don't invite corrupt politicians to blow wind up their arses here. You probably have found this far too confrontational. I recommend the UMD for your kind of Macedonianness. It is the more USA friendly kind of brand.

[Phoenix]

Vangelovski and Risto, well put. If Vic still doesn't get it, he never will.

[vicsinad]

“Firstly, the MTO has committed itself to working towards the unity of all Macedonians along the principles we have put forward in our definition of the cause. Whether we, or anyone for that matter, can actually achieve that is a completely different issue, to which the answer is probably no. But why set our sights low?”

So the MTO has set its sights on achieving something it knows probably cannot be achieved. You make a mistake by assuming that setting realistic goals might necessarily mean having lower aims: a realistic goal does not mean you have to set your sights any lower. This still leaves the ultimate question unanswered: how are you going to unite all Macedonians under the principles that are highlighted in your cause? And if that goal is improbable, what is the true reason for having that as an aim?

“There will always be Macedonians who, like yourself, support anti-Macedonian ideas (such as the Badinter Principle).”

Who gets to decide what views and ideas are anti-Macedonian? Does the MTO get to decide what constitutes anti-Macedonian? Or is it all the Macedonians? Is it Macedonian citizens? Or is it the Macedonian Diaspora? You can argue that, based off what you know about inherent natural rights, democracy and political realities and how you apply that knowledge to the issues facing Macedonia and the Macedonians, the only natural and reasonable inferences or conclusions are that certain ideas, statements and actions are anti-Macedonian. Yet, the same applies to every person who care to think about the issues. Whether labeling of Macedonians with whom you disagree as anti-Macedonian is accurate or not is one discussion. But the labeling of Macedonians as such (who probably care about Macedonia and Macedonian issues just as much and are just as invested as you) is not only inconsistent with “working toward” the achievement of uniting Macedonians under the principles for which the MTO stands, it is antithetical to that aim. Moreover, it could be logically (and then again, circularly) that the approach is more anti-Macedonian itself than the actions of those who are being labeled anti-Macedonian.


“Pointing this out is not an "attack". Its calling a spade a spade and is an integral part of the free and democratic exchange of ideas.”

Labeling and categorizing are not integral parts of free and democratic exchange of ideas; neither are ridiculing and name-calling. Rather, they are the unhealthy byproducts of not being able to convincingly present one's own views. For example, you may believe that what one Macedonian does is “anti-Macedonian.” Another Macedonian may believe some of what you do is “anti-Macedonian.” Yet, in a free and democratic exchange of ideas, if it is so astoundingly clear that one’s views are not in line with a pro-Macedonian agenda, wouldn’t that persons views stand out as such without the need for the label? However, you use the “anti-Macedonian” line simply to dissuade others from assuming a view that you disagree with. Your use of “anti-Macedonian” is not “calling a spade a spade.” Rather, it’s an irresponsible approach to discussing the issues and an insult to the other side of the coin of freedom of speech – mainly, freedom from responsibility, liability and dangerous consequences for how you say what you say. It fringes on slander, libel and character defamation.

“In fact, I would go beyond useless, I would say they are making it harder because they are actively working against it by continuingly advocating for EU/NATO membership under the FYROM terminoloyg, continuingly advocating for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement and so on.”

When Meto suggested that Democratic Republic of Macedonia was a better alternative than fYRoM for the international level, you clearly were against it, not because DRM was or wasn’t better than fYRoM, but because you were against the Interim Accord. So first, to be fair to both you and UMD, you would disagree with them on any name they use to join EU/NATO unless it was the Republic of Macedonia. UMD probably took a different approach and viewpoint (though, I understand they’ve been all over the map) and considered that their efforts would be better directed at promoting NATO and EU membership under the current Interim Accord name (or DRM) because it would help the Macedonian people economically and with security. They probably believed that their resources and efforts would be more efficiently used that way than trying to get Macedonia to brush off the Interim Accord. You disagree with this, and you vehemently disagree with this. And it may be that the UMD is full of cronies and heeds only to the RoM governments wishes, and it may be that the consequences of such will have negative effects for Macedonia and Macedonians. But to label them, their views and people who hold similar views as anti-Macedonian is not productive; rather, it’s harmful to the MTO’s agenda of uniting people under MTO’s principles.

“When someone is working against the cause, how can they at the same time be of any use in achieving it? How do you reconcile that?”

I don’t. But I don’t necessarily see many Macedonians working against the Macedonian cause. I think all Macedonians have pretty much the same vision and goals for Macedonia. I don’t really see a fundamental difference in principles and desires. I see fundamental differences in approaches and plans. And some of these approaches are worse and some are better. Does this amount to anti-Macedonian? No. Does it mean that Macedonians have to keep on dividing? No. It means they have to work with each other where they do have common ground. No, no one should compromise their beliefs, principles and values. But there is always room for collaboration, no matter how far apart you may be.


“Maybe rather than parroting the same old UMD lines, you should actually think about what your saying.”

Approach and attitude. There will always be consequences, intended and unintended, to what you say. It’s not how I perceive you, it’s how others will perceive you. You could be right about 99% of the issues, but when your packaging is wrong and your delivery off target… well, you’ll find out. Give it another 5 years.

I do not have many fundamental differences with the MTO’s definition of the cause. I have fundamental disagreements with MTO’s approach to and handling of other Macedonians. I helped initiate MOYANA in Detroit in 2003/2004 and I backed out because I could no longer identify as an Orthodox Christian. But I haven’t stopped being Macedonian and I haven’t stopped caring about Macedonian culture and Macedonian issues. Which leads me to Risto:

“One day when you feel particularly impassioned you might realise this field for cultural competition does indeed have rules and that you have broken one of them rather severely.”

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry. This has made me unpopular amongst some Macedonians in the past, and I understand (but don’t agree) how people can see that as being a “little less Macedonian.” However, I’m dedicated to the preservation of Macedonian culture and language (which, I see very little of from any Diaspora group aside from MHRMI and AMHRC’s work in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania); the proliferation of traditional Macedonian music; and humanitarian and environmental efforts. (As a side note, for these reasons and many more, regardless of how big or little our political differences, I highly detest the labeling of me and my views as anti-Macedonian)

Leaders and economic power-players used and still use culture as a means of creating and maintaining political nations in order to hold onto power, leave a legacy, and manipulate capital. The diversity of the dialects of the Macedonian people are fading away as village elders die and the literary Macedonian language takes roots in the younger generations. That is one way of many that local Macedonian cultures were harmed for the sake of a political, national body. Yes, cultural competition is very real, but the competition isn’t stemming from other cultural interests. No, it is rather stemming from economic, security, and individual interests.

[Vangelovski]

Victor,

You can worm and twist all you like. There are abosolute truths in this world. There are some things which are simply anti-Macedonian. If you want to live in an Orwellian world where such nasties are not spoken of than feel free to delude yourself, but your delusions will not be entertained here.

If you are going to claim that certain views and actions are not anti-Macedonian, because the underlying motives may not be, then I call BS. Views and actions, regardless of their underlying motives, can still be anti-Macedonian. One can still intend to do something good but in actual fact do the opposite. As has already been explained to you, for more than a century pretenders have come and gone telling the Macedonian people to 'trust them', that while they're views and actions may seem anti-Macedonian, they really have a "grand plan". Nothing has ever eventuated out of these "grand plans" other than more capitulations, compromises, human rights abuses and losses of freedom.

As to your obsession with labels, you might find, if you actually take the effort, that I and the others on the MTO Committee have rarely labelled anyone as anti-Macedonian. We have clearly expressed which views we consider as anti-Macedonian and provided our rationale, but our labelling of people as anti-Macedonian has been rare and only directed to a few individuals and organisations that have unapologetically and consistently taken an anti-Macedonian stand and continue to do so.

On the topic of anti-Macedonian views, it is absolutely essential to point them out for what they really are. For too long Macedonians have gone along with anything and everything that anyone in a suit and tie has told them to, rarely giving any further thought to the logical consequences of these ideas. Look at the result. If you think Macedonia is what it should be, then you have some serious issues. When something is clearly anti-Macedonian, such as the Badinter Principle, it is aboslutely essential to be described as such. We, however, are much more thorough and we provide our reasoning as to WHY it is anti-Macedonian. A turd is still a turd, no matter what you do to it.

[Risto the Great]

I like vicsinad, he sounds like he wears cardigans mostly and works in a government department.

If we multiplied vicsinad by 1000, we still wouldn't have someone useful for Macedonia because he believes all Macedonians are right about everything. Or, if they are wrong, he will not tell them.

vicsinad, there is a friendship group that Lavce has been writing about recently. You should join them.

Originally Posted by vicsinad

I’m concerned more about peoples, cultures and languages than I am about political boundaries or ethnic affiliation based primarily on blood line or ancestry.

I am loathe to label you but will say you are a naive fool. Political boundaries and ancestry have shaped culture for far longer than you have been hugging trees. Go visit Greece and tell me what the "political boundaries" have done to my people there.

Still don't like the FA but agree with Badinter? Why & why?

[George S.]

Vicinad by now you have becomed accustomed by what we mean the macedonian cause.
A lot of people say they know what it is but do they work for it or agains't it? how do they measure up?.Y ou know the heroes like gotse delcev would be turning in their graves to see what has happened to macedonia.Also i see you are in agreement with the badinter still & you don't like the FA.I'm sorry to say that you would be of no use to the MTO because you have allready decided what you want to beleive.Think about it in terms of the cause it does make a difference.If you think it doesn't then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Also as mentioned if you beleive the uMd isUdoing a fantastic job why don't you go to them or other organizations that agree with your paticular philosophy.
RTG & Tom well said in your statements above,i fully agree with them.

[George S.]

I’m dedicated to the preservation of Macedonian culture and language (which, I see very little of from any Diaspora group aside from MHRMI and AMHRC’s work in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania); the proliferation of traditional Macedonian music; and humanitarian and environmental efforts. (As a side note, for these reasons and many more, regardless of how big or little our political differences, I highly detest the labeling of me and my views as anti-Macedonian)"
Too Late your views & statements show you in your full colors you are anti Macedonian & are trying to backtrack.you have been told you are not needed.,you been shown the door
You talk of Maceddonian culture & language not been preserved you are totally dead wrong.You only need to look the prolifitc organizations not only cultural but language based throughout the world.You have no idea what you are talking about.There are language courses at school at various levels & university.Culture has been preserved by the cvarious dancing group that are macedonian all over the world.They perform on regular times around the year.Also there are drama groups & historical societies.Especially historical societies in canada.There are pensioners groups & special interst groups in macedonian.We have radio programs & tv programs virtually everywhere.Internet radio etctc etc Stop talking rubbish,shut your mouth & get out of here.Pretending to be holier than thou.We saw first hand how you treated fellow members on the MTO these are fine people of high regard.You have no respect for anyone but yourself & your wicked views.You are a bitter & twisted person who can't realise why you are anti macedonian.You haven't answered Tom's question re your preference for badinter principle.After all this time after reading & discussing anything you can't bring yourself to admit you are anti macedonia you got real problems that means you shouldn't be here.

[George S.]

"Labeling and categorizing are not integral parts of free and democratic exchange of ideas; neither are ridiculing and name-calling. Rather, they are the unhealthy byproducts of not being able to convincingly present one's own views. For example, you may believe that what one Macedonian does is “anti-Macedonian.” Another Macedonian may believe some of what you do is “anti-Macedonian.” Yet, in a free and democratic exchange of ideas, if it is so astoundingly clear that one’s views are not in line with a pro-Macedonian agenda, wouldn’t that persons views stand out as such without the need for the label? However, you use the “anti-Macedonian” line simply to dissuade others from assuming a view that you disagree with. Your use of “anti-Macedonian” is not “calling a spade a spade.” Rather, it’s an irresponsible approach to discussing the issues and an insult to the other side of the coin of freedom of speech – mainly, freedom from responsibility, liability and dangerous consequences for how you say what you say. It fringes on slander, libel and character defamation."
Vicsinand These are stupid comments that are deranged from a allready stupid fool .You can't have two bites of the cherry & you can't have it both ways.You can have the label & be anti macedonian which ever you look at it is the same full circle you have & people like you have betrayed macedonia .you are not for the cause.People like you have prevented macedonia from realizing their full potential.Your true colors have come out you are just twisting that way & this way & worming this way or that way every possible excuse under the sun.You are only fooling only yourself.You do not support the ideals of the mto & principles you have said you support the badinter principles there's nothing more to say to you.You are not for the cause.The rest of your comments are that you can use any free speech rights to blab bs about anything ,that is to question what anyone proposes.You are abusing your democratic right & hoping to spread confusion in the guise of rights of freedom of speech.
Really now these comments are abnormal,you are a worm who is anti macedonian to the core you will not change your evil ways.As long as you harbor your hate for other people.You have views & wierd expectations you have allready expressed your desires to destroy macedonia further because that's all you are doing.Being anti cause has made you anti macedonian don't give any bs excuses that are supposed to give you the right to have it both ways.Given your views & have no t made detractions you should wear your label with pride!!!!