United Macedonia Diaspora

[Risto the Great]

>And? The name of the Republic of Macedonia is / must remain that forever. That's the UMD policy, too. However, the suggestion being made here is that a provisional reference of DR Macedonia is preferable to FYR Macedonia, if only for removing the word Yugoslav.

Only for turkish bathhouses and international use though. Not too bad in lala land.

So if I call you "dickhead" but your advocates agree that calling you "idiot" is more acceptable, will anyone demand that you be called by your actual name? Not in the UMD it appears.

[makedonche]

Ok, makedonche, poveli:




> Under the current conditions, with Greece holding a veto in both organizations this is a self-evident fact. That doesn't mean the statement supports a name change.





>And? The name of the Republic of Macedonia is / must remain that forever. That's the UMD policy, too. However, the suggestion being made here is that a provisional reference of DR Macedonia is preferable to FYR Macedonia, if only for removing the word Yugoslav.





> Again, this doesn't clearly state Macedonia should change the nation's name, but rather the provisional reference. It is a comment about removing the word "Yugsolav" not a comment about changing the nation's constitutional name. That's especially obvious since 130 contries have already recognized Republic of Macedonia. This name must not change, and the UMD policy on this is very clear.




> It's impossible to say for certain what would have happened to the Republic under indefinite embargo and international political limbo, especially when Milosevic had just recently cleared out the barracks of all JNA equipment, and some were predicting the republic's demise. The suggestion that R. Makedonija's economic development would have been severely impeded without UN recognition and with an indefinite embargo, especially regarding gasoline, is a self-evident fact to any reasonable person.




> This is a very hypothetical piece of angry hyperbole, and therefore probably not worth saying... If the Greek embargo had remained in place until 2011, the damage to Macedonia would have been severe, and its impossible to say what would have happened by now.




> Nope, neither do I. And UMD policy is no change whatsoever.





> And? To the best of my knowledge, this is simply a statement of fact.





> Yes, that is correct, a simple statement of fact.



.

> Well, most of this is accurate, although the word "normalized" is a poor choice of term. The Interim Accord ended the Greece's embargo, but the current relations aren't exactly normal. Of course, anyone who read the whole article, and not just one de-contextualized sentence, would know full well that no one was trying to suggest that Greek-Macedonian relations were normal, post '95.




> Statement of fact.





> Statement of fact.




> The term "full rights" is a bit vague. I don't know exactly what he means by that, and a better term could have been used. However, in general, this is a statement of fact.





>The fact is that Ahmeti has not been indicted for war crimes by the Hague, and the article suggested that he had been, which isn't the case. So, the Siptars complained, and they rewrote the article. As for the question of "should Ahmeti be indicted by the Hague" the answer is yes, in my opinion. But the fact remains that he was not. Of course, Vangelovski never lets the facts get in the way of his argument!





> That is true. Minorities enjoy rights in Macedonia that are denied to minorities in neighboring states. Everyone knows that. The Americans have a strong Albanian lobby, and surprise, surprise, they supported expanded rights for Albanians in Macedonia.... However, I would love to see the rights Albanians enjoy in R. Makedonija be afforded to our brothers in Egej, Pirin, Golo Brdo... I am proud of the humanity that Macedonia has shown to its minorities, unlike Serbia, Albania/Kosovo, Bulgaria, and Greece.






> And? There's nothing to respond to here, it just a statement of fact.





> Macedonian governments have often stated this "willing to resolve the dispute" language, without clearly defining what that means, and this is aggravating. Greece does not budge on its demands that must Macedonia change its name, among other ridiculous demands, and so, no resolution to the argument has been possible.







> And? This is a statement of fact.





> Unfortunately, all of that is true; a statement of fact.





> Yes, Greece got what it wanted in that document, but then failed to live up to its end of the bargain, which is to not impede Macedonia's membership in international organizations. They are in violation of the agreement, which is a fact.






This very old quote is an opinion on the legality of democratically elected governments to enter into negotiations on behalf of the citizens that elected them. For the government to actually change the name of the state is also technically legal, although, in my opinion, and also according to UMD policy, it would clearly not be acceptable. The use of the word "legitimate" here is a poor choice because it can easily be misinterpreted, but it clearly does NOT mean to say that Greece's position is legitimate, or that for Macedonia to change its name is ethically or morally legitimate.





> I have never heard of the MLM. I have never heard of any rationale to declare Crvenkovski's SDS government illegitimate, in the sense of being illegal. Crvenkovski was legally elected by the voters of Macedonia.





> There no question that Robert Menendez is one of the most anti-Macedonian Congressmen in Washington, a real pawn of the Greek lobby. At the time, he was blocking Reeker's appointment arbitrarily, in order to punish President Bush for recognizing Macedonia by its constitutional name in 2004. As it turns out, Reeker is a jackass in his own right, despite that fact that he was a Republican appointment, and his recent comments have been very disappointing, especially since Obama has moved in to the White House.


If all of these quotes are true and accurate, then there are a couple instances where the wording wasn't the best, but there's certainly nothing to apologize for, and nothing to indicate the conspiracy theories of the anti-UMD dingo brigade.

All in all, Vangelovski's list of UMD misdeeds is incredibly mundane, repetitive and willfully misconstrued in his vindictive little red comments. I guess that's what happens when a man has his ego bruised... he joins another organization, and does his best to orient that organization as a "rival" to the one he was previously an important part of... instead of doing the right thing, and seeking for his new organization to be UMD's partner.

Vangelovski's hope is that UMD will one day be destroyed, a hope that he shares with Greeks everywhere, especially the Greek lobby in Washington. Of course, he could care less about the harm it would do to the Macedonian Cause, especially with respect to maintaining a strong presence in Washington, where many decisions of great importance to Macedonia and the Balkan region in general get made every day. To me, that all adds up to Vangelovski putting his personal vendettas ahead of Macedonia's interests.

stravdziger
Thanks for the detailed response, I give credit where it's due and for you to go through those points I commend you! I also respect your opinion and the way you percieve things. Sadly i strongly disagree with your perceptions and opinions and IMHO any person or organisation purporting to represent other Macedonians without their consent or mutual coroboration is a misled and misguided organisation and is seriously flawed in both idealogy and application of that ideaology!

[stravdziger]

stravdziger
Thanks for the detailed response, I give credit where it's due and for you to go through those points I commend you! I also respect your opinion and the way you percieve things. Sadly i strongly disagree with your perceptions and opinions and IMHO any person or organisation purporting to represent other Macedonians without their consent or mutual coroboration is a misled and misguided organisation and is seriously flawed in both idealogy and application of that ideaology!

Very well, makedonche. My goal was only to try my best to answer your question, nothing more. We have different outlooks on certain issues, that's not hard to understand, though you haven't explained what it was that I wrote which you found so objectionable.

Macedonians have been divided by borders, by different languages imposed on them, by different foreign churches vs. each other and vs. the communist ideology, and nowadays, by geography in far-flung host nations, which add their own cultural elements to the diaspora's attitudes. As long as we remain divided, putting any ideology ahead of Macedonia's interests, we'll remain weak. Those are the facts, gentlemen. I don't think anyone should fight for an ideology of any kind, and put ideologies and "ism"s ahead of Macedonia's interests.

[UMDiaspora.org]

List of Best Ethnic Interest Groups of Canada

UMD ranked 9th place!

http://www.mytopdozen.com/Best_Ethnic_Interest_Groups_of_Canada.html

[stravdziger]

Only for turkish bathhouses and international use though. Not too bad in lala land.

So if I call you "dickhead" but your advocates agree that calling you "idiot" is more acceptable, will anyone demand that you be called by your actual name? Not in the UMD it appears.

RTG, when you refer to your fellow Macedonians, who you are determined to slander, as homosexuals ("bathhouse" comments, really?), it only serves to further weaken your position. But, it's ok, I forgive you.

By the way, RTG, I'm curious: what do you love so much about keeping the term "South Slav Macedonia", are you some kind of Bugarofil, or you are one of those who insist - along with the Greeks - that we are simply "Slavs", and not Macedonians? The country name should be Republic of Macedonia, that message is loud and clear, and you're drinking too much of Vangelovski's kool-aid if you literally believe otherwise, or if you want to paint Koloski with that brush.


"... Македонија слободна, слободно живее!"

[UMDiaspora.org]

Hear John Bitove talk about the Macedonian children refugees from Greece...Slushnete go John Bitove kade zboruva za Makedonskite deca begalci od Grcija: YouTube - Tribute Video of John L. N. Bitove, C.M., UMD Lifetime Achievement Award Recipient

[UMDiaspora.org]

Macedonian Member of Parliament Aleksandar Nikoloski

Speech by Macedonian Member of Parliament Aleksandar Nikoloski at the 2nd Annual United Macedonian Diaspora Global Conference held on June 3-6, 2010 in Toronto, Canada.

Part 1: YouTube - MP Aleksandar Nikoloski Speaks at 2nd Annual United Macedonian Diaspora Global Conference - Part 1
Part 2: YouTube - MP Aleksandar Nikoloski Speaks at 2nd Annual United Macedonian Diaspora Global Conference - Part 2

[stravdziger]

....without even taking a moment to consider the issues that are of extreme importance to Macedonians in the Diaspora. Many of these issues already thoroughly discussed here.

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of not considering, but I did read the statement you provided, and I did agree with it 100%. I guess you can't take "yes" for an answer, that my answer means nothing to you is very telling about how close-minded you are. Thus, your question of "do you agree with this?" wasn't a question at all, it was just rhetoric. You are unable to even consider another Macedonian's perspective if it doesn't strictly adhere to your own ideology (or perhaps your organization's ideology?), which is more important to you than Macedonia is.

As you said, it is indeed "only a fucking website". Admittedly it single-handedly is the reference site for Macedonian matters on history and ideology. Smart Macedonians have come to learn that this place can be of great benefit to them. Much of this stems from key concepts such as integrity and honesty. The rest comes from a commitment to the Macedonian Cause.

Well, thank you for calling me a smart Macedonian! I'll take your kind compliment.

If I thought your website was beyond hope, I wouldn't visit it. However, I advise you not to sprain your wrist in an effort to pat yourself on the back over it. This forum could be much, much better, and the blame lies mainly with the immoderate moderators.

This integrity and honesty you gush about is a bit of a scam, because if you were truly committed to the Macedonian Cause, you wouldn't try to stab your brothers in the back, you would discuss differences in an open and authentic way. You wouldn't put words in people's mouths, and twist the truth to meet your organization's donation goals by trying to harm the donations to rival organizations - thereby doing the Greeks work for them. You cross the line, Risto, whereas some of your mates are completely beyond help... they can't even see the line.

As for "true believers" like Julie, who talk about "The Macedonian Truth Organization" with dramatic, passionate tones, like it represents some kind of worldwide revolution of patriotic warriors, riding unicorns on rainbows and moonbeams... It's hilarious, and its an incredibly pretentious and comical way to describe your quaint little website.

If you want your website to achieve its potential, you should foster an open debate. But if a member doesn't adhere to your ideology, he can't get a word in edgewise unless he stoops down to your level, to give as good as he gets... only then does the peanut gallery take notice. But then, the strategy reverses 180 degrees, and you start criticizing based on an aggressive tone... what a joke!

Whenever opposing views are presented politely and respectfully, you jump on that like a pack of hungry dingoes, and when your target bites back, you go crying to your baba about how nasty the evil, no-good American is!

I can debate you politely, and I can debate you impolitely. You choose...

[julie]

As for "true believers" like Julie, who talk about "The Macedonian Truth Organization" with dramatic, passionate tones, like it represents some kind of worldwide revolution of patriotic warriors, riding unicorns on rainbows and moonbeams..

The MTO is far reaching, without having to pay into your US Washington based club and traitors in RoM government, and vassal support, the more you post against us here, the more your member base will dwindle .
What have YOU done for the Macedonian cause you pathetic slime ball, and hypocrite.
If you have read the post and seen the video clip Risto has posted you will see how I called for support for the UMD, to work collaboratively. Until I saw for myself what the UMD stands for. You come here and attack everyone with your rants and dont answer the questions posed to you.
Answer this - UMD policy on the framework agreement, you wont, you are a vassal puppet

[Risto the Great]

RTG, when you refer to your fellow Macedonians, who you are determined to slander, as homosexuals ("bathhouse" comments, really?), it only serves to further weaken your position. But, it's ok, I forgive you.

By the way, RTG, I'm curious: what do you love so much about keeping the term "South Slav Macedonia", are you some kind of Bugarofil, or you are one of those who insist - along with the Greeks - that we are simply "Slavs", and not Macedonians? The country name should be Republic of Macedonia, that message is loud and clear, and you're drinking too much of Vangelovski's kool-aid if you literally believe otherwise, or if you want to paint Koloski with that brush.


"... Македонија слободна, слободно живее!"

I am sure I will visit a Turkish bathhouse one day ... no problem.

What on Earth gave you the impression I like South Slav Macedonia? Is it because I don't like Democratic Macedonia? So (referring to my earlier discussion) if I call you "idiot" and you don't like it, it means you prefer to be called "dickhead". Let me know how this logic departs from yours.

[Risto the Great]

I'm not sure what you're accusing me of not considering, but I did read the statement you provided, and I did agree with it 100%. I guess you can't take "yes" for an answer, that my answer means nothing to you is very telling about how close-minded you are. Thus, your question of "do you agree with this?" wasn't a question at all, it was just rhetoric. You are unable to even consider another Macedonian's perspective if it doesn't strictly adhere to your own ideology (or perhaps your organization's ideology?), which is more important to you than Macedonia is.

I accused you of trash talking without even taking a moment to see what is important to the participants of this website. You admitted to never seeing the thread on the Macedonian Cause. I did take your yes for an answer but I also gave little credence to your commitment to it because you cannot see how you have already departed from it.

If I thought your website was beyond hope, I wouldn't visit it.

Have you just started visiting it and you missed the Macedonian Cause thread? What part of it is "within hope"? Can we rely on your opinion given that you have had nothing more than a cursory appreciation of it?

This integrity and honesty you gush about is a bit of a scam, because if you were truly committed to the Macedonian Cause, you wouldn't try to stab your brothers in the back, you would discuss differences in an open and authentic way. You wouldn't put words in people's mouths, and twist the truth to meet your organization's donation goals by trying to harm the donations to rival organizations - thereby doing the Greeks work for them. You cross the line, Risto, whereas some of your mates are completely beyond help... they can't even see the line.

The Macedonian freedom fighters of 100 odd years ago dealt with traitors far more appropriately. We merely questioned (in an open and authentic way) the actions of UMD for about 12 months then came to the conclusion that they were not worth the hype they created for themselves. Oh, by the way, we never received an answer.

As for "true believers" like Julie, who talk about "The Macedonian Truth Organization" with dramatic, passionate tones, like it represents some kind of worldwide revolution of patriotic warriors, riding unicorns on rainbows and moonbeams... It's hilarious, and its an incredibly pretentious and comical way to describe your quaint little website.

Solid and thoughtful Macedonian dialogue that helps to crystallise sound Macedonian ideology is always exciting for real Macedonians. Julie is clearly a real Macedonian.

If you want your website to achieve its potential, you should foster an open debate. But if a member doesn't adhere to your ideology, he can't get a word in edgewise unless he stoops down to your level, to give as good as he gets... only then does the peanut gallery take notice. But then, the strategy reverses 180 degrees, and you start criticizing based on an aggressive tone... what a joke!

Whenever opposing views are presented politely and respectfully, you jump on that like a pack of hungry dingoes, and when your target bites back, you go crying to your baba about how nasty the evil, no-good American is!

I can debate you politely, and I can debate you impolitely. You choose...

What do I care. You are still justifying Democratic Macedonia to me because it is better than South Slav Macedonia. It is like debating with an intellectually handicapped person. Do it whichever way you want. But when it gets boring and we have shown you for what you are enough times, you will probably get deleted.

Anyway, how about those UMD membership numbers???

[Vangelovski]

I've been off line for a few days.

Screwdriver,

Its more than obvious that you are either Meto himself or an UMD Board Member. Your attempt to turn black into white and white into black with regard to UMD's views is quite pathetic. What makes it really pathetic is that Meto himself acknowledged that he supported a name change during his tour down under, all of which was video taped. Further, he did not distance himself from his views, rather, he attempted to convince us that it was a 'good idea at the time'.

In all of your creative reinterpretation of Meto and UMD's public statements, you have yet to deal with their support for the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement - the real issues we're dealing with. The only explanation for UMD's treasonous views are that it either supports them or its a mindless mouthpiece for the Macedonian Government and the US State Department.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I am sure I will visit a Turkish bathhouse one day ... no problem.

YouTube - Kafe bravo PREMIUM k-15

[Soldier of Macedon]

Its more than obvious that you are either Meto himself or an UMD Board Member.

How many UMD board members are there in Toronto? How many of them are disgruntled morons? The way in which this depraved lunatic writes appears much like that clown of an administrator from Maknews, who is an ardent UMD stooge, defender and apologist.

[Vangelovski]

How many UMD board members are there in Toronto? How many of them are disgruntled morons? The way in which this depraved lunatic writes appears much like that clown of an administrator from Maknews, who is an ardent UMD stooge, defender and apologist.

There's at least one Canadian Board Member and a number of stooges (including Maknews). How do we know the Screwdriver is from Canada?