The Ilinden Uprising

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Albo

Vlado Popovski is a well known Macedonian HISTORIAN... He knows and has read more on the history of Macedonia than probably everyone in this forum... his comments hold weight..

Aren't you at all curious on what sources such people base their comments on? Don't you want to read these sources and form an opinion of your own to compare and validate that of others? Or is independent thought not familiar to you? As a historian, of course Popovski's comments hold some weight, but if the level of your curiosity or intellect allows you to go no further than to read other people's opinions, then at least show me where he says that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries? Where does he say that Pitu Guli is half ethnic Albanian and that 20 Albanians were part of the parliament in Krusevo?

Here have a read here.. more mention of the 20,20,20 council..

I did. It says nothing about 20 Albanians.

It was a multi ethnic Uprising..

From the same link you provided: "Pitu Gule, a noted martyr of the Krusevo Republic, was a Vlach.........One should not, however, over-estimate the multi-ethnic character of the Ilinden rising. IMRO was an overwhelmingly Slavic movement….". Quick question - do you even read the sources you post or do you just do a quick google search based on a few key words?

....that was a reflection of the population than and as it is today.

Rubbish. Population statistics clearly depict ethnic Albanians as a tiny minority in Krusevo.

It would have gained more support from the Albanians but it was rejected by the Albanian elites at the time as being disorganized and underfunded..

Which Albanian elites are you referring to, the overwhelming majority whose ancestors turned to Islam? If I was to guess I would say that most of them were much happier serving their Turkish masters in a position of privilege as opposed to joining forces with that oppressed mass they once may have called their Christian brethren.

Repost of earlier picture where Albanians wearing White scull caps are part of the brigade

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%...uli%2C1903.jpg

That picture was taken from some distance and there are probably 150 fighters in it, give or take. How many of them are wearing the skull-cap? Or is anybody with a white hat an Albanian? You know, when you first joined this forum and starting posting all sorts of stuff in a flurry, I was prepared to give you the benefit of doubt in the hope that there was some substance behind it all. I am now starting to realise that you are little more than a light-weight who hasn't really done any real research himself and likes to parrot fanciful stories rather than present his perspectives with a level of credibility. Do yourself a favour - either start properly researching this topic or stop wasting my time, because sooner rather than later I am going to get tired of asking you the same questions over and over again.

[Albo]

Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Vlado Popovski is a well known Macedonian HISTORIAN... He knows and has read more on the history of Macedonia than probably everyone in this forum... his comments hold weight..

Aren't you at all curious on what sources such people base their comments on? Don't you want to read these sources and form an opinion of your own to compare and validate that of others? Or is independent thought not familiar to you? As a historian, of course Popovski's comments hold some weight, but if the level of your curiosity or intellect allows you to go no further than to read other people's opinions, then at least show me where he says that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries?

Buddy.. I don't know all the sources that Historians like Popovski and Nexhipi have read to mention what they have about the Albanians being a factor in the illinden Uprising..
Over the years I've read bits and pieces about that period and to be honest I haven't studied it thoroughly due to the fact that there isn't a lot of documented history in English or Albanian that I've come across,

The parts that I've mentioned are what I've read and what others (Historians) have said.. now I don't take what all Historians say as gospel.. but they obviously have reasons for what they say based on some sort of source.. maybe try contacting Vlado Popovski and ask him why he says what he says about the Albanian involvement in Krushevo..

It's know and common knowledge that Albanians provided and sold weapons throughout the Balkans during that time, prior and even today.

So it's not unfeasible to believe that the cherry cannon was provided or built or sold by Albanians (does into really matter?) But I've read it in the past also mainly from Albanian sources to be honest.

Now as for Pitu Guli being Half Albanian .. Again most say he was a Vlach who's family originated from Voskopja in Albania and migrated to Krushevo after the city was burned down. That's where most Vlachs in Krushevo originate from.. Now Voskopja was a Vlach majority city .. but it also has Albanian "Mahalas" neighborhoods which were made up of Orthodox Albanians. Mixed marriages were and still are very common in southern Albania between Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians..
Now the when Popovski says there are indications that he was Albanian or partially Albanian it would be from the fact that the Vlachs of Krushevo originate from Voskopja and that where maybe some mixed heritage..

But having said that.. there is another theory that says that communist Historians overplayed the role that Albanians played to create a stronger unified relations between Albanians and Macedonians. This also holds some weight ..

Now as an Albanian we obviously don't see the Illinden Uprising as a major part of our history.. We have many similar, smaller and larger movements and batttles against the ottomans in our history that we study and celebrate.
Eg
The league of Prizren

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Prizren

Or

The Dervish Cara Uprising ( That for a time liberated Skopje) and many other Albanian majority regions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish_Cara

Or

The Albanian revolt of 1910

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1910

Here have a read here.. more mention of the 20,20,20 council..
I did. It says nothing about 20 Albanians.
Quote:
It was a multi ethnic Uprising..
From the same link you provided: "Pitu Gule, a noted martyr of the Krusevo Republic, was a Vlach.........One should not, however, over-estimate the multi-ethnic character of the Ilinden rising. IMRO was an overwhelmingly Slavic movement….". Quick question - do you even read the sources you post or do you just do a quick google search based on a few key words?

It's does mention 20, 20, 20.. read it again...

Yes I did read that part.. I never said Albanains were a majority in the movement...
I said they were a factor and they should be remembered as that.. nothing more nothing less...

....that was a reflection of the population than and as it is today.
Rubbish. Population statistics clearly depict ethnic Albanians as a tiny minority in Krusevo.

I was referring to Macedonia as a whole...
The figures you mentioned earlier were for the city only..

But even today the Krushevo municipality is about 20% Albanian maybe more since no census has been done since 2001...

It would have gained more support from the Albanians but it was rejected by the Albanian elites at the time as being disorganized and underfunded..

Which Albanian elites are you referring to, the overwhelming majority whose ancestors turned to Islam? If I was to guess I would say that most of them were much happier serving their Turkish masters in a position of privilege as opposed to joining forces with that oppressed mass they once may have called their Christian brethren.

I'm referring to Albanian elites that were a combination of Muslims (Sunni & Bekteshi) Catholics and Orthodox..
The Albanian Renaissance unlike other Balkan people wasn't exclusively religious based.

These elites were mostly members of high positions in the Ottoman Empire.. most were far more educated and willing to sacrifice than the illiterate and incompetent corrupt "leaders" we have today.

That picture was taken from some distance and there are probably 150 fighters in it, give or take. How many of them are wearing the skull-cap? Or is anybody with a white hat an Albanian?

Well everyone in the Balkans knows that Albanains have historically been recognized as wearers of white skull caps.. ( belo kapce) as Serbs and Macedonians call it.

You know, when you first joined this forum and starting posting all sorts of stuff in a flurry, I was prepared to give you the benefit of doubt in the hope that there was some substance behind it all. I am now starting to realise that you are little more than a light-weight who hasn't really done any real research himself and likes to parrot fanciful stories rather than present his perspectives with a level of credibility.

Ouchh..!!!
Just when I thought we were getting along :-p
Look I don't have time locate sources from 1903 of obscure questionable events that don't hold much bearing on the situation on the ground today...

I would rather discuss how Macedonia can be improved by working together and dealing with each others grievances...
One would be much more patriotic to work towards getting rid of the people that have brought Macedonia to this situation that it's in..

People like Gruevski and Ahmeti are toxic to Macedonia.. this should be where energies are focused...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Albo

...I don't know all the sources that Historians like Popovski and Nexhipi have read.......

You don't seem to know any of them, which further goes to show how uninformed you are about the subject.

.....maybe try contacting Vlado Popovski and ask him why he says what he says about the Albanian involvement in Krushevo..

I don't need to, because, for the umpteenth time, I have never denied that there may have been some ethnic Albanians that supported the Macedonian revolutionaries, just like you shouldn't deny that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Albanians were against them.

It's know and common knowledge that Albanians provided and sold weapons throughout the Balkans during that time, prior and even today.

You initially stated that ethnic Albanians provided "most of the weapons" for the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo. Now you're backtracking and revising your argument by stating that they merely sold weapons throughout the Balkans. Can you see why it's hard to take you seriously? You make a point, you're called out on it, then you change your story. If you didn't exaggerate in the first place you wouldn't be in this predicament.

So it's not unfeasible to believe that the cherry cannon was provided or built or sold by Albanians.....

Without proper research, basing feasibility on scattered references you've come across on Albanian websites is useless. I believe that Macedonians built those cannons - this perspective is supported by Nikola Kirov-Majski, the co-author of the Krusevo Manifesto and cousin of Nikola Karev (leader of the Krusevo Republic). Kirov-Majski states that the cannons were built by people from the village of Selce. The inhabitants of that village were all adherents of the Exarchate, which means they were Macedonians, not ethnic Albanians.

...does into really matter?

Does the truth matter, he asks? Read the name of this forum.

Now as for Pitu Guli being Half Albanian .. Again most say he was a Vlach who's family originated from Voskopja in Albania and migrated to Krushevo after the city was burned down. That's where most Vlachs in Krushevo originate from.. Now Voskopja was a Vlach majority city .. but it also has Albanian "Mahalas" neighborhoods which were made up of Orthodox Albanians. Mixed marriages were and still are very common in southern Albania between Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians..Now the when Popovski says there are indications that he was Albanian or partially Albanian it would be from the fact that the Vlachs of Krushevo originate from Voskopja and that where maybe some mixed heritage..

That's nothing but speculation. Vlachs were living among Macedonians for over a century before Krusevo rose up in revolt. I could just as easily speculate that Pitu Guli was half Macedonian. But I won't, because I don't know that and neither do you. Sources from the time indicate he was a Vlach. You came here calling him "half Albanian" as a matter of fact and now, again, you're changing your story by saying that "maybe" there was some ethnic Albanian in his heritage. Honestly, get a hold of yourself, you're all over the place.

But having said that.. there is another theory that says that communist Historians overplayed the role that Albanians played to create a stronger unified relations between Albanians and Macedonians. This also holds some weight ..

Sure, that holds some weight.

It's does mention 20, 20, 20.. read it again...

I feel like I am interacting with a child here. I read it. Yes, it indicates that there were 20-20-20 in the council. It says nothing about Albanians being one group of those 20's, which is what you were erroneously trying to insinuate earlier. Get it?

I never said Albanains were a majority in the movement...I said they were a factor and they should be remembered as that.. nothing more nothing less...

They were a tiny factor of support where it concerns the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo. They were a significant factor of support where it concerns the Ottomans in general. That's how they will be remembered.

The Albanian Renaissance unlike other Balkan people wasn't exclusively religious based.

Albanian "renaissance", nice. Do you think the Shkendija supporters who chant "ubi, ubi, ubi kaura" (kill, kill, kill the infidel) are inclusive of Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians?

I'm referring to Albanian elites that were a combination of Muslims (Sunni & Bekteshi) Catholics and Orthodox....These elites were mostly members of high positions in the Ottoman Empire...

Are you suggesting that Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians held high positions in the Ottoman Empire?

Well everyone in the Balkans knows that Albanains have historically been recognized as wearers of white skull caps..

Yes, but you can't equate the specific look of a skull cap with just any white hat. Just because some of the people in that old picture happen to be wearing white hats doesn't automatically mean they're Albanians. Unless of course you can clearly identify which one's are actually wearing the white skull cap, which is what I asked you before.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Albo

I would say that the majority of Albanians were indifferent to the Uprising.. do you have proof that the majority were against it as you say??

The majority of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia were Muslim. The majority of Muslims in western Macedonia were ethnic Albanian. In the Ottoman Empire, the Muslims held a privileged position above the Christians. Ottoman troops were almost always accompanied by militias made up of local Muslims, the so-called 'bashibazouk' - which, in the case of western Macedonia, would have been overwhelmingly ethnic Albanian. These are all facts. Whilst not all Muslim / ethnic Albanian men in western Macedonia may have fought against the Macedonian revolutionaries, to suggest that most of them were indifferent to the prospect of losing their 'status' as a result of the Christian majority governing the country is a blatant disregard for logic.

Ok let's just say that "weapons were also supplied by Albanians" Due to there being to detailed itinerary on weapon stocks and ethnic background of their origin.. :-p We have no documented proof either way do we?

Not OK. First you ramble on about the cherry cannon and now, again, you modify your position by making it more generic, edging ever closer to irrelevance. If there is no documented proof either way then how can you refer to a "detailed itinerary on weapon stocks and ethnic background of their origin", whatever that means?

I was referring to Vlado Popovski's comments that there are indications that he was Albanian...Why would Vlado Popovski make that up?

You're the one using his comments to support your perspective yet you can't even refer to the sources on which these comments are based. The link you provided earlier is no good and I cannot find this article on google. Apparently he made the statement to an Albanian-language newspaper. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to find. Post another link to it here if able and we can go through it in more detail.

Ok what communities were involved in the 20 20 20 split then? If Albanians weren't involved..I already sent you the wiki link quoting multiple sources

You're twisting things again. I never said ethnic Albanians weren't involved. It is you that said the parliament was made up of 20 Macedonians, 20 Vlachs and 20 Albanians. That is a LIE which even your own wiki link doesn't support. According to what you copied and pasted in your previous post, the three groups, each of whom provided 20 representatives, were made up of (1) pro-Romanian Vlachs, (2) adherents to the Patriarchate and (3) adherents to the Exarchate. If ethnic Albanians were present anywhere at all it would have been as a very small contingent of the Patriarchate group, because ethnographic statistics from the time clearly point to ethnic Albanians being a numerically insignificant element in Krusevo when compared to Macedonians and Vlachs.

Seriously is that the best you have on this.. Using hooligan Shkendija chants as academia..Let's not get into soccer chanting.. where Macedonians and Serbs started the while "ubi ubi shiptari" chants Not to mention "gas Chambers for the Albanians" or "mrtov shiptar dobar shiptar" to mention a few..

Unsurprisingly, you've missed the point. The reason why I used that example is to demonstrate how misleading it is when ethnic Albanians like yourself pretend that religion isn't always a factor for your people. Those Shkendija supporters were making anti-Christian chants, which, by default, would be insulting to ethnic Albanians who are Christian. That seems to be common among your lot in Macedonia. Perhaps things are different in Albania, but in the late 19th century your fellow Muslim Albanians helped the Ottomans slaughter Christian Albanians in the Mirdite region.

Obviously the highest positions were held Muslims.. but there were other influential religious and Rum - Milet christian leaders involved..

Most of them were Muslims and as I stated before, they didn't withhold their support for the uprising because it was "disorganized and underfunded", as you suggested previously, but rather because they didn't want to relinquish their privileged position above Christians. And the influence of Christian Albanians in the governing structure of the Ottoman Empire is practically non-existent compared to the many influential positions held by Muslim Albanians.

White caps indicate Albanians..

White skull caps, not white caps in general. Are you suggesting that no other Balkan peoples wore white caps?

Oh and just coincidence maybe but why is this guy on the Ilinden flag wearing a white skull cap and want seems to be a very Albanian looking traditional outfit?

http://makedonija.name/images/histor...nden_zname.jpg

Oh no, he's an Albanian!!! You're a clown, lol. There is a difference between a simple white cap and a skull cap (which you can't even identify in that flag or the picture you posted earlier). And most traditional Balkan outfits look similar. What exactly about the outfit in the flag is "very Albanian" and not used by Macedonians?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Posts moved here from the below thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=8660&page=9

Here is something interesting. This photo is from around 1893 (or perhaps some time a little later), pictured are Dame Gruev (left) and his two friends, Grigor Popev (middle) and Aleksandar Panov (right). The note below the picture says that Popev and Panov were disguised in "Arnaut" clothing as they travelled through western Macedonia. Just because there are pictures of Macedonian revolutionaries presumably dressed as ethnic Albanians doesn't mean they were ethnic Albanians themselves. In this case, as in no doubt many others, they were merely using the dress of the enemy (or a population that the Ottomans didn't find hostile) to pass through areas undetected.

[Carlin]

The Ilinden Uprising from the Greek point of view.

The following is a set of various segments put together for the purpose of this article on Krushevo from the upcoming book Macedonia, A Pass to Time, A Bridge to Infinity, (© 2014) by Marcus Alexander Templar.

URL:
http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2014/0...3-peoples.html

The Myth of Liberation: 1903 - The “People’s Republic of Krushevo”

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

The Ilinden Uprising from the Greek point of view.

The following is a set of various segments put together for the purpose of this article on Krushevo from the upcoming book Macedonia, A Pass to Time, A Bridge to Infinity, (© 2014) by Marcus Alexander Templar.

URL:
http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2014/0...3-peoples.html

The Myth of Liberation: 1903 - The “People’s Republic of Krushevo”

Wow Marcus Templar, he is one looney toon who has a small following of Ancient Hellene descendants on Social Media who believe they're Spartans.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

The uprising outside the Manastır Vilayet

[Carlin]

In 1912 an unnamed Western diplomat writing for an American newspaper claimed that he had first hand knowledge of Germany's role in crushing the Ilinden Uprising: "in 1903 the Macedonian insurrection had to be suppressed by the German government," he wrote.

Please see link for full aricle:
https://teamuzunovmedia.blogspot.com...g-ilinden.html

The link/article has many images, pictures and screenshots so it's not easy to copy and paste everything.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Whilst I have no evidence on handy, I have encountered this quite a few times over the last year or so that Germany assisted the Ottomans during the uprising.