Self-identification

[toothpaste]

Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas said:
Every person in the world has the right to self declare him/herself as he/she pleases without objection from others, even if the others don't agree with it. If I wanted to call myself an Eskimo I really don't give a damn if anyone else of the Eskimos agree with me or resent it.

SoM said:
Truth Bearer, he was banned for not showing the most common decency of respecting a people's self-identification.

Jankovska said:
I suggest you go back to Maknews if you cannot respect my right to self identify as I choose.

Risto the Great said:
It is easy. Millions of us self identify as Macedonians and you are not convinced. It is not my job to convince you. As a Greek, it apparently is your job to remain belligerent and unable to acknowledge a people's right to self determination. This is very common amongst your people Giorikas. Let me know if I can help you get over this syndrome.




Alexander I,king of Macedon said:

"For I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery."

(Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])


....

So...let's respect every one's self-identification...even his majesty Alexander the first...after all he was a great Macedonian and Alexander's granpa...

[Delodephius]

Yes but father's self identification is not necessarily his son's. Nor his father's. It's an individual thing like the name says. So if Alexander I claimed he was a "Greek", then fine. But his people and his closest family didn't necessarily think so of themselves.

[Volk]

he was not called a philhellene for no reason

[mbourdes]

Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas

Yes but father's self identification is not necessarily his son's. Nor his father's. It's an individual thing like the name says. So if Alexander I claimed he was a "Greek", then fine. But his people and his closest family didn't necessarily think so of themselves.

Are you disputing Alexander I claims that he was Greek.?
Why would that be Mr Anomaly?

[Risto the Great]

Do you mean that small Sicilian tribe from antiquity when you mean Greek?
Because there was no other.

[mbourdes]

Yes the Hellenic one that the normal world refers to when talking about Greek things.

[makedonin]

This quote seen alone would appear as self Identification. The problem is that it is seen out of context. If one see this quote in the whole context, several problems arise. It is as first the trustworthiness of Herodotus Report. Let's take a closer look at it.

In Book IX Herodotus report to us that Alexander was in the Persian Camp and that:

44. After the inquiry about the oracles and the exhortation given by Mardonios night came on and the guards were set: and when night was far advanced, and it seemed that there was quiet everywhere in the camps, and that the men were in their deepest sleep, then Alexander the son of Amyntas, commander and king of the Macedonians, rode his horse up to the guard-posts of the Athenians and requested that he might have speech with their generals. So while the greater number of the guards stayed at their posts, some ran to the generals, and when they reached them they said that a man had come riding on a horse out of the camp of the Medes, who discovered nothing further, but only named the generals and said that he desired to have speech with them.

source

What is wrong with this description?
1) The Persians i.e. Medes set their guards, which was usual, but than Herodotus would like us to believe that while the night advanced, this man were in their deepest sleep and Alexander had no problem riding his horse out of the Persian camp.

This is more than unlikely, since the next morning the Battle was to be fought.

2) The simple fact that the Athenians guards in the Athenian camp were awake and Alexander was stopped by them i.e. he could not pass through, makes this story much more untrustworthy, cause if he could not pass to the Athenian guards, he would not able to pass to the Persian guards. That is why he would like us to believe that all of the Persian men fell a sleep.

3) This would be highly risky mission for one King to undertake. Instead he would send one of his trustworthy messengers to do the job. But Herodotus want us to believe the opposite of the common practice.

But let us say, Herodotus Bad night Story was true, and Alexander did managed to go to the Camp.
Herodotus him self gave an Interview in his book VIII which would explain why would Alexander would make such a statement, advancing that Herodotus didn't make up this story in book IX.

Alexander speaks here before the Athenians and he is the messenger of the Persians and Mardonios:

141. ........ In compensation for this the Lacedemonians and their allies make offer to support your wives and all those of your households who are unfitted for war, so long as this war shall last: but let not Alexander the Macedonian persuade you, making smooth the speech of Mardonios; for these things are fitting for him to do, since being himself a despot he is working in league with a despot: for you however they are not fitting to do, if ye chance to be rightly minded; for ye know that in Barbarians there is neither faith nor truth at all.

source

So, what would it be, the Herodotus the Truth story teller, or the Herodotus the bad night story teller, my Greek friends?

Since if you say, he did declared his ancestry "Greek", than Herodotus him self tells us what the other Greeks thought of Alexander.

And it is certain that he had Interest in playing political games and labeling him as Greek, since he knew that he is not trusted, so he tried to gain the trust of the Athenians, but does that makes him a Greek?

Either way, Herodotus is untrustworthy reporter, and he can be proven twisting the story as it fits him.
He even said that he will bring evidence for Alexander being a Greek, but he never did so.

[mbourdes]

Who was eligible to participate in the Olympics in those times?

[makedonin]

Originally Posted by mbourdes

Who was eligible to participate in the Olympics in those times?

he was denied at first, and than he came up with his "Hellenic" descent, which was more likely that he told a story which no one could prove anyways. And than again, only the Royal House was sometimes seen as Hellenic, while the rest of the Macedonians as Barbarians.

And even so, what was Hellenic, read my signature for that.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by mbourdes

Yes the Hellenic one that the normal world refers to when talking about Greek things.

Hang on, Hellenic or modern Greek. I view them as completely separate identities. And the ancient Greeks (or Graecoi) were a little tribe that did not matter much in Hellenic matters. So please do not get things confused.