Church St.Nedela in Bitola inscription - real or fake?

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  • DraganOfStip
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 1253

    Church St.Nedela in Bitola inscription - real or fake?

    I don't know if this has been debated elsewhere,but I'll start a new thread anyway,admins can join both threads if exist .

    Bulgarian propaganda among the Macedonian population exists since the forming of the Bulgarian kingdom.They deny the existence of a Macedonian nation and language till this very day.I'm not going into specifics about their methods and means,but I'd like to question one of their most exploited "evidences" about the "Bulgarism" of the Macedonians.There's (or is it?) an inscription of the St.Nedela church in Bitola,allegedly dated 1863 that includes the word "Bulgarians" referring to our people:



    Now,Bulgarians claim Macedonians tried to erase the specific word from the tablet but letters can still be seen.Any info on the authenticity of the inscription?
    Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-18-2012, 07:19 PM.
    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
    ― George Orwell
  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #2
    I would like to agree that this sort of naming us as bulgarians exists in bitola because there is peopl's stupidity to capitulate as bulgarians because they are nothing but slaves to others.
    I would personally like to get hold of these people who think they can decide for the city of bitola that even though we declare we are macedonians they declare for us that we are bulgarians.Are they doing us a bifg favour.I allready had a taste of this form of baptism by some idiot changing the names of people in the matcna area.If my parents names ends in ski & ska then how is it that some two bit idiot can put an ov on my name as if i'm bulgarian in the maticna records.They have done it to an entire city of bitola.They should string them by the balls.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • TojSum
      Junior Member
      • Feb 2012
      • 54

      #3
      Dragan, yes there is such inscription (you give us the link of the inscription) but to use this inscrption to proof that Macedonians are bulgars its idiotic (but from bulgars you can expect everything ) because:

      1. In that time Bitola is under jurisdiction of Bulgarian church and the of Church St.Nedela is established and erected on October 13, 1863 during his preosveshtenstvo Mr. Benedict Byzantine, from whom the church was consecrated.
      So when bulgarians build a church what do you expect to write

      2. The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"

      Bulgarian educators????? ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) from Preslav (do you know where is preslav?) ))

      I think everything is clear here.

      3. The inscription it self:

      (Original, bulgarian): Тоя светї храмъ на прѣсветая и славна великомѫченица Недѣля се издїгнѫ отъ основание съ иждивението на Българитѣ при владикованието на Вїсокопрѣосвещенния г-нъ г-нъ Венедиктъ Византийский който и я освети Битоля 13 октомври 1863 год.

      (Macedonian): Овој свет храм на пресветата и славна великомаченца Недела се издигна од основание со помош на бугарите за време на владикувањето на високопреосвештениот г-н г-н Венедикт Византиски кој ја освети. Битола 13 октомври 1863.

      (English): This holy church of St. Martir Nedelya was erected with the contribution of the Bulgarians under the diocese of his holy grace Benedict of Byzantium who sanctified it in Bitolya on 13th October 1863.

      I realy can't understand where they see the proof???

      Comment

      • DraganOfStip
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2011
        • 1253

        #4
        Originally posted by TojSum View Post
        Dragan, yes there is such inscription (you give us the link of the inscription) but to use this inscrption to proof that Macedonians are bulgars its idiotic (but from bulgars you can expect everything ) because:

        1. In that time Bitola is under jurisdiction of Bulgarian church and the of Church St.Nedela is established and erected on October 13, 1863 during his preosveshtenstvo Mr. Benedict Byzantine, from whom the church was consecrated.
        So when bulgarians build a church what do you expect to write

        2. The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"

        Bulgarian educators????? ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) from Preslav (do you know where is preslav?) ))

        I think everything is clear here.

        3. The inscription it self:

        (Original, bulgarian): Тоя светї храмъ на прѣсветая и славна великомѫченица Недѣля се издїгнѫ отъ основание съ иждивението на Българитѣ при владикованието на Вїсокопрѣосвещенния г-нъ г-нъ Венедиктъ Византийский който и я освети Битоля 13 октомври 1863 год.

        (Macedonian): Овој свет храм на пресветата и славна великомаченца Недела се издигна од основание со помош на бугарите за време на владикувањето на високопреосвештениот г-н г-н Венедикт Византиски кој ја освети. Битола 13 октомври 1863.

        (English): This holy church of St. Martir Nedelya was erected with the contribution of the Bulgarians under the diocese of his holy grace Benedict of Byzantium who sanctified it in Bitolya on 13th October 1863.

        I realy can't understand where they see the proof???
        They see the proof in

        1.It says "Bulgarians" in a church in Macedonia
        2.It's written in Bulgarian,and the church is in Macedonia
        3.The specific word "Bulgarians" has been scratched and blurred,they see this as an attempt to erase the "evidence" from the tablet.

        Now,everyone knows that at the time churches in Macedonia were under the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church,but every time they disregard this fact.And the attempt to erase the inscription "Bulgarians" is seen as an act of evidence destruction by the post-WWII communist authorities to "create" a Macedonian identity.Nevertheless,the explanation you provided (which I totally agree with) will be seen as an attempt to twist history in our favor.
        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
        ― George Orwell

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #5
          Originally posted by TojSum
          The inscription below it reads "Bulgarian educators from Preslav Year 1875"
          Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.
          Originally posted by DraganOfStip
          Bulgarian propaganda among the Macedonian population exists since the forming of the Bulgarian kingdom.
          It existed prior to the Russian creation of a Bulgarian state.
          Now,Bulgarians claim Macedonians tried to erase the specific word from the tablet but letters can still be seen.
          So some Macedonian (allegedly) tried to scribble out a word, big deal. Even if that were true, it is a rarity compared to the several historical and cultural manipulations carried out by some Bulgars against Macedonians. There's a subject worthy of its own thread, if one doesn't already exist.
          Nevertheless,the explanation you provided (which I totally agree with) will be seen as an attempt to twist history in our favor.
          Why would it been seen as "twisting history" if it is accompanied by a logical explanation? On the one hand you say that you "totally agree" with the Macedonian argument, but then on the other you don't consider it plausible enough for others to believe. Strange.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • DraganOfStip
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 1253

            #6
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.

            It existed prior to the Russian creation of a Bulgarian state.

            So some Macedonian (allegedly) tried to scribble out a word, big deal. Even if that were true, it is a rarity compared to the several historical and cultural manipulations carried out by some Bulgars against Macedonians. There's a subject worthy of its own thread, if one doesn't already exist.

            Why would it been seen as "twisting history" if it is accompanied by a logical explanation? On the one hand you say that you "totally agree" with the Macedonian argument, but then on the other you don't consider it plausible enough for others to believe. Strange.
            No,I meant from a Bulgarian perspective they'll see it as an attempt of "discrediting the obvious",I think you misunderstood my words.What I was trying to say is that because Bulgarians consider us and our language as Bulgarian,anything in Macedonia prior 1945 that relates us to Bulgaria is an "evidence" of our "Bulgarian" roots for them,so this one from 1863 referring to the people that build the church as Bulgarians (and this is in Bitola,Macedonia) comes as the 'icing on the cake' for the tatars,and they're parading this image on their nationalistic websites,even display it on Wikipedia.
            Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-18-2012, 07:46 PM.
            ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
            ― George Orwell

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #7
              Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
              No,I meant from a Bulgarian perspective they'll see it as an attempt of "discrediting the obvious",I think you misunderstood my words.
              I understood your words as you wrote them. You said nothing about a 'Bulgarian' perspective. Perhaps next time you will be a little more clear. I know it must appear that I am being rather blunt with you, Dragan, but my intention is not to offend you, only to understand your perspective better. And to be honest, a number of your posts and questions don't really seem that transparent, it's almost as if they're being written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian. Again, no pun intended, that is just the way it appears. We have had many pretenders come and go and my response to you has this in consideration. I hope you show otherwise.
              What I was trying to say is that because Bulgarians consider us and our language as Bulgarian,anything in Macedonia prior 1945 that relates us to Bulgaria is an "evidence" of our "Bulgarian" roots for them.......
              You're preaching to the choir mate, we already know how Bulgars manipulate history against Macedonians. Unless you're bringing logical counter-arguments to the table, there is no need to keep spreading their filth here.
              ....they're parading this image on their nationalistic websites,even display it on Wikipedia.
              They parade all sorts of lies and manipulations, there is nothing special about this case. Why do you keep presenting the arguments of our enemies without our counter-arguments, given that you're already aware of what they are?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • DraganOfStip
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2011
                • 1253

                #8
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                I understood your words as you wrote them. You said nothing about a 'Bulgarian' perspective. Perhaps next time you will be a little more clear. I know it must appear that I am being rather blunt with you, Dragan, but my intention is not to offend you, only to understand your perspective better. And to be honest, a number of your posts and questions don't really seem that transparent, it's almost as if they're being written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian. Again, no pun intended, that is just the way it appears. We have had many pretenders come and go and my response to you has this in consideration. I hope you show otherwise.

                You're preaching to the choir mate, we already know how Bulgars manipulate history against Macedonians. Unless you're bringing logical counter-arguments to the table, there is no need to keep spreading their filth here.

                They parade all sorts of lies and manipulations, there is nothing special about this case. Why do you keep presenting the arguments of our enemies without our counter-arguments, given that you're already aware of what they are?
                SoM,I don't know where you got the idea that my posts look like they're "written by a Bulgar pretending to be Macedonian",given the fact that most threads I've created are simply questioning alleged "evidences" of our neighbors against our people,language and culture,looking for info from my fellow countrymen to dispute the same (feel free to check my attitude towards Bulgarians in my posts).So before labeling me as a Bulgarian infiltrator first check ALL my posts please.

                I've been arguing with Bulgarians,Greeks and Serbs on many forums and every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation I seek answers here,since I know there are many Macedonians here that have been through all those "evidences" and have the counter-arguments I need.

                You say I "keep presenting the arguments of our enemies".I am simply presenting THEIR "argument" looking for counter-arguments here.What's wrong with that?If we just say "no dudes you're wrong" that won't mean a thing.What we need is a non-biased,scientifically or historically proved hard counter-argument to answer back.That's all,simple as that.
                Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-19-2012, 08:17 AM.
                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                ― George Orwell

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #9
                  Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                  So before labeling me as a Bulgarian infiltrator first check ALL my posts please.
                  Dragan, I haven't labelled you as anything, I just made an observation.
                  I've been arguing with Bulgarians,Greeks and Serbs on many forums and every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation I seek answers here,since I know there are many Macedonians here that have been through all those "evidences" and have the counter-arguments I need.
                  Fair enough, if you need assistance or information I will do what I can to accomodate, but can I ask that you also present some of your own thoughts and counter-arguments, even if they are preliminary? That will at least help us understand not only the Bulgar argument you're making reference to, but also the counter-arguments you've produced which you don't consider to be reasonable, scientific or historically accurate.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • DraganOfStip
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2011
                    • 1253

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Dragan, I haven't labelled you as anything, I just made an observation.

                    Fair enough, if you need assistance or information I will do what I can to accomodate, but can I ask that you also present some of your own thoughts and counter-arguments, even if they are preliminary? That will at least help us understand not only the Bulgar argument you're making reference to, but also the counter-arguments you've produced which you don't consider to be reasonable, scientific or historically accurate.
                    I didn't say they're not reasonable,scientific or historically accurate.
                    Ok,I think I know how to best explain myself here:
                    let's say you're,for example English.You travel to another country,let's just call it Neverland.Neverland borders with a country,call it Utopia.Utopia not far ago gained it's independence,it's language is somewhat similar to Neverlandish and to another neighboring country.Now i won't get into the naming dispute Utopia has with it's third neighbor cos this will prolong beyond reason.Anyway,a Neverlandish guy shows you both languages are mutually intelligible,and a tablet from a century and a half ago in a Utopian city written in Nererlandish,referring to it's population as Neverlanders.Then you go to the much smaller Utopia and the Utopians say "oh,that's just because we were under the Neverlandish church back then,it's nothing."
                    Who would you believe,as a foreigner,as a random non-biased guy?

                    Do you get my point?We already know as Macedonians about who we are,what is our nationality and language,but if we limit our knowledge just to ourselves,the whole world will fall under the spell of those tablets,inscriptions etc. and we'll never get the recognition we deserve.I'm just trying to provide as much counter-arguments as possible against every of their claims individually.
                    Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-19-2012, 09:49 AM.
                    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                    ― George Orwell

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #11
                      Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                      I didn't say they're not reasonable,scientific or historically accurate.
                      You said "every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation.....", that is what I was referring to. You obviously have your own opinions before you seek further information here because as you yourself admit, you've been arguing with Bulgars, Greeks and Serbs on many forums. I want to know what those opinions are and why they're considered unreasonable.
                      Who would you believe,as a foreigner,as a random non-biased guy?
                      Your fictional analogy isn't entirely accurate and the lack of specific detail makes it too ambiguous for comparison. If it was explained logically I would believe the Macedonian over the Bulgar. I am under no illusions about the 'Bulgarian' term being assumed in Macedonia during certain periods of time, but this also applies to other regions in the Balkans. For example, the east Roman administrative unit known as the 'Bulgaria' theme (which was established after the defeat of Samuel in the 11th century) included parts of Macedonia, Serbia and other neighbouring lands (this was a political move in part based on socio-religious commonalities due to the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia), while most of Bulgaria proper itself was known as the 'Paristrion' theme. The 14th century traveller known as Sir John Mandeville speaks of Bulgars in Belgrade, the 17th century Armenian traveller known as Simeon Lehaci spoke of 'Bulgarian' monasteries and the Bulgarian language being spoken in Bosnia, another 17th century traveller known as Evliya Celebi spoke of Bulgars in Belgrade, 19th and 20th century Ottoman records refer to the Serbs (and Macedonians) in Kosovo as 'Bulgars' due to their adherence to the Exarchate, etc. There is a plethora of information concerning the real meaning of the 'Bulgarian' name in Macedonia, and after an adequate assessment of all the information and perspectives, only the Macedonian argument is comprehensive and logical. We are the indigenous people of Macedonia and form a distinct ethnicity in the Balkans, we are not an extension of another ethnicity and history clearly shows this, despite the use of certain terms during different periods. Such superficial 'identities' mean nothing, because at the end of the day, despite empires, occupations, religious and political propaganda, lack of coordinated efforts, etc, the indigenous Macedonian identity still prevailed. That was the logical outcome.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        You said "every time I see them present an "evidence" for THEIR version of events,if I don't have a reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation.....", that is what I was referring to. You obviously have your own opinions before you seek further information here because as you yourself admit, you've been arguing with Bulgars, Greeks and Serbs on many forums. I want to know what those opinions are and why they're considered unreasonable.

                        Your fictional analogy isn't entirely accurate and the lack of specific detail makes it too ambiguous for comparison. If it was explained logically I would believe the Macedonian over the Bulgar. I am under no illusions about the 'Bulgarian' term being assumed in Macedonia during certain periods of time, but this also applies to other regions in the Balkans. For example, the east Roman administrative unit known as the 'Bulgaria' theme (which was established after the defeat of Samuel in the 11th century) included parts of Macedonia, Serbia and other neighbouring lands (this was a political move in part based on socio-religious commonalities due to the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia), while most of Bulgaria proper itself was known as the 'Paristrion' theme. The 14th century traveller known as Sir John Mandeville speaks of Bulgars in Belgrade, the 17th century Armenian traveller known as Simeon Lehaci spoke of 'Bulgarian' monasteries and the Bulgarian language being spoken in Bosnia, another 17th century traveller known as Evliya Celebi spoke of Bulgars in Belgrade, 19th and 20th century Ottoman records refer to the Serbs (and Macedonians) in Kosovo as 'Bulgars' due to their adherence to the Exarchate, etc. There is a plethora of information concerning the real meaning of the 'Bulgarian' name in Macedonia, and after an adequate assessment of all the information and perspectives, only the Macedonian argument is comprehensive and logical. We are the indigenous people of Macedonia and form a distinct ethnicity in the Balkans, we are not an extension of another ethnicity and history clearly shows this, despite the use of certain terms during different periods. Such superficial 'identities' mean nothing, because at the end of the day, despite empires, occupations, religious and political propaganda, lack of coordinated efforts, etc, the indigenous Macedonian identity still prevailed. That was the logical outcome.
                        SoM,I'm not the one that needs the 'reasonable,scientifically or historically backed-up explanation',neither of us Macedonians do.The world is the one that needs it.When I worked aboard a cruise ship some time ago,there were many Macedonians,Bulgarians and Serbs as well.One day,a Mexican dude that I worked with,also happened to be a very good friend of mine, asked me "Hey,is it true that you Macedonians are in fact Bulgarians with a speaking disability?".Of course,he didn't mean it as an offense towards me,he laughed to that statement himself,but I was like "What?Where did you get that from?" with a serious face expression.And right away he felt that this was a sensitive issue for me as a Macedonian,he apologized and said "The Bulgarians are openly discussing this everywhere, I thought you were familiar with it,I didn't know there were tensions between you guys."I almost got into a fight that night in the crew bar with the tatar bastard that my friend overheard saying those words.
                        As long as our enemies are poisoning the world with their propaganda we'll be a mocking stock to the ordinary people out there,that's why discrediting every single 'evidence' of theirs with solid facts needs to be our priority.
                        Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-19-2012, 04:46 PM.
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Stevce
                          Member
                          • Jan 2016
                          • 200

                          #13
                          Hi guys, just a few questions.
                          Wasn't the Bulgarian Exarchate developed in 1870 not 1863?
                          Or was that the official date of the exarchate and it was actually around earlier?
                          Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Stevce View Post
                            Hi guys, just a few questions.
                            Wasn't the Bulgarian Exarchate developed in 1870 not 1863?
                            Or was that the official date of the exarchate and it was actually around earlier?
                            Can you please post a picture of that inscription which refers to 1875? I can't see it on the link.
                            The Bulgarian church had been seeking independence from the Greek church in the 1850's and 1860's, I believe it may have been granted autonomy but I don't know much about this. Could be similar to how the Macedonian church was granted autonomy as a part of the Serbian church in the 1950's before becoming fully independent in the 1960's
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

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