Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • fyrOM
    Banned
    • Feb 2010
    • 2180

    I think he might be holding back not to upset things now but record every incident to play the card later. Its debatable whether this is a better tactic than highlighting every incident and gradually bending them but loading a spring of hate at the same time.

    Comment

    • Jankovska
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1774

      Originally posted by OziMak View Post
      I think he might be holding back not to upset things now but record every incident to play the card later. Its debatable whether this is a better tactic than highlighting every incident and gradually bending them but loading a spring of hate at the same time.
      I don't think it's debatable. Has centuries of silence thought us nothing? The Macedonian people ALWAYS try and avoid kicking up a fuss and the more we keep quiet the more we are bullied. Time to stand up for ourselves.

      Comment

      • Prolet
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2009
        • 5241

        Big Bad Sven, What are your thoughts about the Macedonian Leader in Serbia Gojko Ilievski saying that the Macedonian Ambassador to Serbia Ljubisha Georgievski not visiting them at all while he's been there?? The Macedonians in Pirinska Macedonia said the same thing when he was Ambassador to Bulgaria.
        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

        Comment

        • Mikail
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1338

          Macedonia and Bulgaria relations

          Greeks and Bulgarians -Yesterday's bitter enemies today's best friends

          By Risto Stefov

          April 25, 2010

          Just recently someone handed me a Bulgarian newspaper and pointed to the headline; “Bulgarian-Greek Cultural event” with the Bulgarian flag on the left and the Greek flag on the right. Wow! I never thought that in my lifetime I would see the words “Bulgarian”, “Greek” and “together” in a friendly way in the same sentence. The world is indeed changing and from what I gather, for the better. I hope!

          The article went on to say:

          “The event was organized by Cosmos Translations Inc and the Marketing Department of the OTN Greek Television Network, from the Greek side, and by the newspaper ‘Bulgarian Flame’ and ‘Balkanto’ from the Bulgarian side.

          The two groups of Canadian-Bulgarians and Greek-Canadians had the opportunity to discuss ways and means to enhance their cultural presence in the Greater Toronto area.

          The event was attended also by the Consul of the Republic of Bulgaria in Toronto Mr. Kamen Dikov and his wife and by some other prominent business personalities. Between them we discerned Tom Michalopoulos, (president of Coffee Time and other franchises) and his wife, Loui Masouras, as well as a representative of the Canadian Bulgarian Business Alliance (CBBA).

          We hope that this meeting will be followed by many more, for the purpose of enhancing and enriching the cultural presence of both communities in Toronto and beyond.”
          (The story appeared in the January 22, 2010 issue of the “Bulgarian Flame” Toronto based Bulgarian newspaper.

          I know a lot of you are saying, “What’s the big deal?” So a bunch of Greeks got together with a bunch of Bulgarians and had a good time. So what!

          Well I grew up in Greece and as far as I am concerned the Greek educational system and Greek society in general taught me not to trust Bulgarians. Bulgarians, according to some Greeks, are allegedly the worst kind of humans to exist on this planet. I even heard from older generations that the Bulgarians are terrible “one-eyed” monsters to be avoided at any cost. So, for me at least, to see this kind of acceptance and friendship between Greeks and Bulgarians is somewhat of a miracle. If this is possible then perhaps there is hope that there will be acceptance of Macedonians and they too will have friendly relations with the Greeks and Bulgarians because, after all, they are a common link between Greeks and Bulgarians. Greece and Bulgaria became “worst enemies” over Macedonia, so what’s wrong with them becoming “best friends” because of Macedonia?

          Greece and Bulgaria were indifferent to each other for many years, that is, until they both began looking to annex Macedonian territories. Then in 1913 they fought one another in pitch battles over who was going to get more of Macedonia. That fight continued all through the Second Balkan War, World Wars I and II and by the 1950’s they became fanatic bitter enemies. In fact, if I remember my history correctly, when Bulgaria capitulated in 1913, after fighting Romania, Ottoman Turkey, Serbia and Greece, it handed Sofia over to Romania because it did not want the Greeks to set foot on it fearing the Greeks would slaughter the entire population to the last man, woman and child. And now you tell me they are best friends? Who would have thought?

          There is no rhyme or reason for the Greeks and Bulgarians to be best friends now, just like that. Being the suspicious kind that I am, I thought there had to be more. Historically, the only time Greeks and Bulgarians came even close to being friends was when they needed each other and had mutual interests at stake.

          In the early 1900’s they both wanted Macedonian territories but could not individually defeat the Ottoman Empire to get them. So at some point in time they must have realized that it was more beneficial to both to be allies instead of enemies. Greece and Bulgaria must have realized that they could successfully defeat the Ottoman Empire only if they put their combined effort together. So they became friends and the first thing they did in July 1910, was to reconcile their “Church” differences between the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Greek Patriarchate, two bitter enemies who had fought to the death.

          Their friendship unfortunately only lasted as long as they had a common enemy, the Ottomans, but as soon as the Ottomans were driven out of Macedonia they again became bitter enemies and fought each other for a bigger piece of Macedonia. So excuse me for being the suspicious type but I bet you this “new” so-called “Greek” – “Bulgarian friendship” has something to do with “Macedonia”.

          You see Serbia too was a “partner” who benefited from Macedonia’s partition in 1913. But with the breakup of Yugoslavia in the late 1980’s, Serbia lost its share and that part of Macedonia became the independent Republic of Macedonia in 1991. So you can bet the Greeks and Bulgarians “need each other” because very soon they will be facing the Macedonian people, from whom they stole parts of Macedonian territories and who will be wanting them back. You can see at least one reason why Greeks and Bulgarians are consolidating their forces, right?

          Both Greece and Bulgaria are new countries artificially spawned in the 19th century by the Great Powers, created from the remnants of the failing Ottoman Empire. Neither deserves the Macedonian territories they were given in 1912, 1913 when they illegally invaded, occupied and partitioned Macedonia by force and without the consent of the Macedonian people. I guess they know that too, that is why they need each other now more than ever not only to fight back against the Macedonians but also to cover up the atrocities they committed against them over the years. “Greece will be a witness for Bulgaria and cover up the misdeeds the Bulgarians have committed against the Macedonians if Bulgaria will be a witness for Greece and cover up its misdeeds and hopefully they both will come out unscathed”, so they think!

          Greeks, Bulgarians and generally most people of the Balkans are often described by outsiders as people who behave “irrationally”. Unfortunately this often quoted “irrational” behaviour has never been explained other than being called a “typical Balkan behaviour”. Well there are reasons for such behaviour which usually point to guilt. Macedonians, and by that I mean the “real Macedonians” not the “Greek-Macedonians” or “Bulgarian-Macedonians”, do not behave “irrationally” nor do they need to because their conscience is clear.

          Macedonians have not stolen other peoples’ lands; they have not committed atrocities and genocide and have not prohibited other people from speaking their language or from freely asserting their national and ethnic sentiments. The Greeks and Bulgarians, on the other hand, have stolen Macedonian lands, have committed atrocities and genocide and have prohibited other people, especially the Macedonians, from expressing their national and ethnic consciousness so they do have many reasons to be nervous about and this nervousness manifests itself in “irrational behaviour” which is obviously noticed by outsiders. When you speak of such “behaviour” please do not include the “real Macedonians” as they already have enough problems to worry about without being labeled neurotic, irrational, obsessed and all the terms used to describe the others.

          So if you are like me and find it difficult to believe that “bitter old enemies” can suddenly, out of the blue, become “new best friends” then you are in good company.

          So what exactly is the “real reason” for Greeks and Bulgarians coming together in this friendly manner? Is this another “historic friendship of convenience” or what?

          Again, I hope I am wrong about this and that this “new Greek-Bulgarian friendship” is genuine because the world can use a lot less violence and more “love” between nations. But as I said before, being the suspicious kind, I don’t believe it to be so. In fact there is a trend nowadays, not only in the Balkans but also in all of Europe, where nations and people are becoming more “nationalistic” and violent so I find it difficult to view this new relationship as “genuine”.

          One might argue that this new found love between Greeks and Bulgarians is taking place in Canada and has nothing to do with Greece and Bulgaria but let me tell you “nothing” happens anywhere without the approval of “mother Greece” and “mother Bulgaria”, especially this “friendship” between the two! And there is more.

          I have also noticed that this “love affair” is not limited to Bulgarians and Greeks but extends to other “bitter rivals” the “Grkomani and Bulgaromani” (Macedonians who think they are Greeks or Bulgarians and work against the Macedonian cause).

          Macedonians beware of “Grkomani” and “Bulgaromani” bearing gifts which they may have bought with your money. Speaking of money, there is nothing more disgusting than your “worst enemies” pretending to be your best friends, soliciting money from you and then using it against you”! Yes you heard me right!

          So again Macedonians, of the “real kind”, beware of to whom you donate your money because it potentially could be used against you!

          Since the Republic of Macedonia became an independent country in 1991, the world has been watching and taking notice. I expect people will soon be asking “we thought Macedonians did not exist, where did all these Macedonians come from?” What will the Greeks and Bulgarians, who have been speaking for the Macedonians for the last one-hundred years, say then? Tito created them? They are disgruntled Greeks? They are Serbia-nized Bulgarians? And who is going to believe that?

          So you can see the reasons why Greeks and Bulgarians need to get together and “get their stories straight” and what better way to do that than to start by being best friends. You don’t have to believe me about this, all you have to do is read your history and you will find much “precedence” for this kind of behaviour between Greeks and Bulgarians, especially when it comes to Macedonia and the non-existent Macedonians!

          There is another angle to this, a more sinister angle, which involves Greece and Bulgaria again joining forces to occupy and partition the Republic of Macedonia. They did this in 1912 and 1913 and it worked well for them. Why not do it again?

          Greece already claims Macedonia belongs to it and that the Macedonian territories up to ancient Paeonia have always been Greek. Bulgaria has also made similar claims since the San Stefano Treaty was signed, so why not act on those claims? Who is going to stop them?

          Think of it this way. What is better for Greece and Bulgaria? (a) Risking being discovered and punished for “stealing” Macedonian lands, committing major atrocities against the Macedonian people and having to pay for all this including giving back all the Macedonian territories to the Macedonian people, or (b) Invading, occupying and annexing the Republic of Macedonia and thus solving the “Macedonian Question” once and for all, or at least until the Macedonian people muster enough strength to again rise up? So you can see (b) an “invasion” may be a better option for them. Isn’t that what the Bishop of Thessaloniki called for? Isn’t that what the Greek Special Forces were chanting during the latest Greek Independence Day parade?

          Hey, I am just thinking out loud here! And if you think that this idea falls outside the “realm of possibilities”, think again. This is not my idea. It comes directly out of Mitsotakis’s play book. You know ex-Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis, Dora Bakogianys’s father?

          Well, I have a better idea, instead of attempting something stupid and risking starting a Third World War, why don’t Greece and Bulgaria admit to stealing Macedonian lands and simply give them back to the Macedonian people? While doing that why not take the punishment they deserve for all the atrocities they both committed against the Macedonian population?

          Before I am done here, there is one more thing I want to say, which has some bearing on this Greek and Bulgarian irrational behaviour and it has to do with the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest. I am not talking about the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest everyone knows about, I am talking about “the secret part” of the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest that very few people know about! Yes there is a secret part but that is all I am going to say about it for now.

          Does the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest expire in 2013? Some people say yes; but it is yet to be determined! I say “yes” one third of the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest expired in 1991 when the Macedonian people took matters into their own hands and liberated the Serbian occupied part of Macedonia and called it the Republic of Macedonia! Unfortunately Greece and Bulgaria are still in denial about that but sooner or later they too will come to the realization that they too must give up the Macedonian occupied territories they stole from the Macedonian people, just as Serbia did! That’s when the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest will expire in its entirety!

          One last thing. Greece is about to be given an economic bailout package by the Europeans and the IMF. Yet in spite of the horrendous amount of money given, there are no conditions attached to Greece to provide human rights for its minorities or to end its phony name dispute with the Republic of Macedonia. Yet the Republic of Macedonia in all earnest is expected to change its name to enter NATO and the EU. By changing its name Macedonia will have to admit that Macedonians don’t exist and Greece and Bulgaria were right all along in saying so. And this ladies and gentlemen is the European way of doing business; done by the same Europe Macedonia wants to join. It makes no sense to me!
          From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

          Comment

          • fyrOM
            Banned
            • Feb 2010
            • 2180

            Do you remember not so long ago the Turkish and Macedonian communities in the USA held a joint cultural event. Seeing truth met truth both on the government level and on a cultural level what else could Greece and Bulgaria do. My enemy’s enemy is my friend is a very true saying. I just wonder how many times the Bulgarians muttered under their breath their old time war cry pet na nos mamkamu mrsna.

            Comment

            • Bill77
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 4545

              They were best friends early in the 20th century also. Until Greece decided to start the party with out there mates the Bulgars and began dividing Macedonia with out them.

              Dumb and Dumber.
              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                It has been long obvious that among the wolves, the Macedonian government is least outspoken against Bulgaria, that has to changed immediately. The Bulgar government is an enemy of the Macedonian people, as it always has been, Gruevski and Ivanov should have sent a strong message by now, I don't believe their silence is a result of them being complicit in Bugaromanstvo, but more out of fear of reaction. There is nothing to fear, Bulgaria is given way too much credit.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Prolet
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 5241

                  Totally right SOM

                  He is what else is happening, Bozidar Dimitrov is in the headlines again believe it or not.



                  МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                  Comment

                  • osiris
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1969

                    sadly the greek people are so lost in their self obsession that no matter what their various official positions are on bulgaria, mots greeks still harbour quite nasty racist views of the bulgarians.

                    i dont think greeks like anyone even nations like the usa britain and germany who have banrollded modern greece

                    Comment

                    • I of Macedon
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 222

                      Is Bulgaria going to veto Serbia?

                      The problem with the Bulgarian minority in Serbia should be solved before Serbia’s EU accession, because the problems are solved when you are a candidate, not when you join the union, VMRO Chairman Krasimir Karakachanov told FOCUS News Agency.

                      We do not oppose Serbia’s joining the EU. Serbia is a European country, unlike Turkey. But we believe Serbia has many problems to solve, he added. [insert: because Bulgaria doesn't have problems ]

                      He said Serbia had not demarked the borders with some of its neighbors, such as Macedonia.

                      “In the bilateral ties with Serbia the problem that has existed for decades is the Bulgarian minority, who, though being officially recognized, do not have all opportunities for a normal human life there,” the VMRO leader said.



                      Its interesting that he basically notes that problems aren't solved when you're in the EU. WOW the EU must really be a fantasy club where members have impeccable records and are the pillars of humanity

                      Oh and lets shed a tear for the Bulgarian minority in Serbia and hide the stomping on the throats of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria.
                      Last edited by I of Macedon; 04-26-2010, 11:08 AM.
                      No need to sit in the shade, because we stand under our own sun

                      Comment

                      • Prolet
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 5241

                        Macedonia is the only country in the balkans thats solved all its border disputes with its neighbors.

                        Karakacanov is always sticking his nose in other peoples business
                        МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          I hope the Bulgars prove themselves to be as stupid as the Greek racists with these veto charades.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Frank
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 687

                            Well there are no Bulgars the live in any niegboring State, naturally they will prove themselves silly.

                            Comment

                            • MHRMI
                              Member
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 132

                              MHRMI/AMHRC: Bulgaria Bans Macedonians from Attending Commemorations‏

                              Bulgaria Reverts to Past Totalitarian Practices and Bans Macedonian and US Citizens from Attending Macedonian Commemorations

                              MHRMI/AMHRC Press Release


                              Toronto, Canada and Melbourne, Australia (April 28, 2010) - Bulgaria has begun to emulate longtime EU member Greece's practice of harassing or banning "undesirables" from entering their country. This includes anyone who dare proclaim the existence of a Macedonian minority.

                              On Sunday, April 18, 2010, members of several Macedonian organizations, including Todor Petrov, President of the World Macedonian Congress, and Georgi Donevski, President of the Association of Refugee Children, were on their way to visit OMO Ilinden's traditional commemoration of Jane Sandanski's death but were stopped at the Delchevo border crossing. After a detailed search of their vehicle, the border officials said that one letter on their car registration was illegible, so they were refused entry. The delegation managed to secure a new vehicle and were finally allowed to enter Bulgaria. Shortly afterwards they were stopped by the police, subjected to another search of their vehicle, and fined for not wearing seatbelts. They were told that they had to go to Blagoevgrad and wait for the police chief to "confirm" the fine. By the time the chief appeared, over two hours later, the commemoration was over.

                              "We are disgusted that the Bulgarian police prevented us from attending this important Macedonian event. What is even worse, is that the European Union allows Bulgaria to get away with such actions", said Todor Petrov.

                              On Saturday, April 24, 2010, on their way to attend OMO Ilinden PIRIN's Jane Sandanski commemoration on Sunday, a TV Sonce crew consisting of two cameramen and Slavko Mangovski, journalist and MHRMI International Coordinator, and accompanied by a university professor were denied entry. A Vinozhito representative, Dimitri Ioannou, who accompanied the crew was allowed to enter but he refused in sign of protest.

                              "Upon arrival at the border it was evident that the police were waiting for us. Without even looking at our passports one of the police took them straight to the commanding officer who immediately appeared and advised us they would perform a "routine check." After some time he reappeared asking for proof of medical insurance, hotel vouchers and official invitation to visit Bulgaria. Since we had none of the above we offered to purchase insurance on the spot and have a friend come to the border and invite us. We were told that they are sorry but all insurance forms are finished and that personal invitation won't do since it has to be certified by the local authorities and notarized. After about 2 hours we were issued a Refusal of Entry at the Border form and had our passports stamped with a cross and the letter E. Under the letter E in the form it was handwritten: no medical insurance, vouchers and invitation. Immediately after that we were told to leave the grounds and return to Macedonia", said Mr. Mangovski.

                              The next morning several more delegations, including the World Macedonian Congress, the Association of Muslim Macedonians, the Association of Ancient Macedonians, and the Association of Ethnic Macedonians from Aegean Macedonians in Bitola were denied entry with similar excuses. All the activists declared that they will pursue legal complaints to the EU, OSCE and all other relevant authorities.

                              These incidents follow the harrassment of Georgi Hristov, editor of the Macedonian language newspaper Narodna Volja, on March 22, 2010. At the Delchevo border crossing, leaving and re-entering Bulgaria, Mr. Hristov was held for several hours while six border officials examined his car and belongings.

                              A joint press conference was held on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 where it was confirmed that this matter will be pursued through the EU, OSCE and UN. A special meeting with the Macedonian government will take place and a demand will be presented for a reciprocal measure towards Bulgarian citizens visiting Macedonia.

                              ###

                              Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) has been active on human and national rights issues for Macedonians and other oppressed peoples since 1986. For more information, please visit www.mhrmi.org, or contact MHRMI at 416-850-7125, or [email protected].

                              Established in 1984 the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) is a non governmental organisation that informs and advocates to governments, international institutions and broader communities about combating discrimination and promoting basic human rights. Our aspiration is to ensure that Macedonian communities and other excluded groups throughout the world are recognised, respected and afforded equitable treatment. For more information please visit www.macedonianhr.org.au, or contact AMHRC at [email protected] or via +61 3 93298960.

                              Comment

                              • Prolet
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 5241

                                MHRMI, What has the Macedonian Government said about this? There are no visas for Bulgaria so why do they insist on insurance and hotel vouchers?
                                МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                                Comment

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