Razer and Stefan - Bulgar morons

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  • Bij
    Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 905

    #31
    Razer, I once met some Macedonians on holidays in Bitola from South Africa. They were females but said they loved Macedonia because they had the freedom to walk down the street, which they did not have in SA. Also spoke of many former Yugoslav families that own mines down there who all hang out together and away from the SA population. Did you find SA unsafe? Were you able to walk down the street safely without any problems? Was your family in mining? Did you socialise with serbs, bosnians, macedonians there or south africans? Are there many there from the Balkans?

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #32
      Originally posted by Razer
      Remember that the first Bulgarian state was created as a union between the Bulgars and the Slavic tribes.
      The state was created by Bulgars. The so-called 'union' didn't really come into effect until later, and this was solidified by Boris, who sided with the largely Christian Slavic-speaking element over the dwindling Pagan Bulgar elite. Before that, the Bulgars may have intermingled with some Slavic-speaking peoples, but the ruling classes were still mostly Bulgars, and they used Greek as the official language of their state.
      By that time the Thracian kingdom was long-time gone and the Roman Empire was in control of the region, together with the Avars.
      I'm not talking about a Thracian kingdom. The Thracians didn't just disappear after the Romans conquered the Balkans. And they have a more significant historical presence in that region than the original Bulgars - both numerically and in terms of longevity.
      Mate, I think you're misreading the article. The Bulgarian position is very clear - Macedonia must remain independent and safe.
      I am reading the article just fine. I think you need to take off the blinkers and read it properly rather than cherry-picking selected quotes. Who the hell is Bulgaria to even propose a pre-emptive division of Macedonia? Perhaps there should be a pre-emptive division of Bulgaria into Bulgarian, Macedonian, Roma and Turkish sections. What do you think? And the moron(s) who wrote it refer to Macedonians as an 'invented nation', 'Slavic Macedonians' and 'Macedonists', typical of the idiotic mentality of Bulgarian racists. Put yourself in the shoes of a Macedonian and read that trash for what it is.
      I personally don't see anything wrong with the above.
      If you don't, then perhaps your initial introduction into this forum wasn't as forthcoming as you'd like to suggest.
      The earliest records of the Cyrillic script are found not in Macedonia or Greece or Russia, but in Preslav - the capital of Bulgaria at that time, and home of the Preslav Literary School. It was there where the alphabet was created under the orders of Boris I, who wanted to translate the Bible for the newly-Christianised population on the Balkans.
      Yes, I know the Bulgarian version of events. I don't agree with them. It was educators and students from Macedonia that travelled to Moravia and Rome. It was the same Macedonians that were greeted by Boris on their way back home, who asked them for assistance so the majority of his population could receive the word of the Bible in a related language. That is a fact. Even if Cyrillic was created in Preslav (which I don't believe it was), the very reason this was able to happen was because of people from my homeland, not yours. If the people of Bulgaria could have done it without our assistance, then they already would have. What was stopping them? Why did they need to wait until Macedonian scholars arrived in their country?
      Again, I think this should be bringing us closer instead of dividing.
      It should, but there needs to be some honesty here. I can honestly admit that Cyrillic was created while Macedonia came under the rule of the Bulgarian kingdom. Can you honestly admit that were it not for scholars from Macedonia, this would not have been possible?
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • United MKD
        Member
        • Jul 2011
        • 547

        #33
        Originally posted by Razer View Post
        Also, life in SA is all about work, work and work...rugby, cricket and again - work, work, work...People do the same everyday and it's like you run in a circle. It's fun, but only for a while.

        I noticed a lot of you guys are in Australia. My best mate was there for few years - Alex, but he moved to NZ. How's life down under?
        Life in Australia is very similar to what you just said about life in SA.

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4671

          #34
          Originally posted by Razer View Post
          I can assure you that no 800,000 Macedonians are being suppressed anywhere in Bulgaria. This simply can't happen in 21st century Europe and in a country that's a member of EU and NATO. We have a ton of international watchdog organisations here - from Amnesty International to the Red Cross. There is even a pro-Macedonian organisation, called “Ilinden” I think. I saw them on tv few weeks ago.

          The whole population of the Blagoevgrad province is 320,000. Of them 561 people listed themselves as ethnic Macedonians in the 2011 census, or 0,2%.

          Let me know if you have any other questions.
          Razer, for somebody who has spent the last 15 years in SA...interestingly you're all over the bulgar statistics that downplay the size of the Macedonian minority...

          Comment

          • Stojacanec
            Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 809

            #35
            Welcome to the forum Razer

            Re the Cyrillic Alphabet

            The scholars came from Macedonia, created the cyrillic alphabet and educated the christians that were already speaking the language in the market place albiet an informal one at the time. Again bear in mind that Cyrill and Medodius created an alphabet for a language that was already spoken but informally. I don't see how it was a language handed down by Bulgarians.

            Comment

            • Razer
              Banned
              • May 2012
              • 395

              #36
              Hi AMHRC,

              I was here during the census and monitored it with great interest. From what I saw, there was never an anti-Macedonia atmosphere. I find this crazy and here is why:

              1. For the first 10 days of the census, the data was collected electronically via the internet. This is how 41.2% of the total information was gathered, or something like 3,000,000 people. You just seat at home and do it, without anyone pressuring you.

              2. The remaining data was collected by officials (40 000 I think) who were mainly young students and pensioners who just wanted to make some extra cash.

              Here is a link to the results. You can find the Macedonian results in the 7th tab, called Citizenship, and under Outside EU.



              Overall, the article is making some very scary and daring statements without putting specific information on the table. I do agree that reading it you get the feeling that Bulgarians are "out to get you", which is far from reality.
              Last edited by Razer; 05-20-2012, 06:10 AM.

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                #37
                If the bulgarians adopted the cyrillic alphabet & language out of necessity. where has the bulgarian language gone.Because you look at it today the bulgarian language is a copycat of the macedonian language.I'm told virtually all the streets of bulgaria have macedonian names.
                Hey it doesn't matter what you say about the statistics the bulgarian govt would'nt reveal them but there are independent organizations who know such as helsinki human rights watch etc.Also why deny people their ethnicity when it sticks a mile high like the proverbials.Why can't they just accept the fact there are macedonians.Why hide !
                Also according to propaganda cyril & methodius were bulgarian according to the bulgars & greeks according to the greeks.But they are macedonians & they spread the cyrillic alphabet around,it is well documented as to who they are.So we have pure and simple BIG DENIAL of factual history.
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #38
                  Razer if you are in bulgaria just go & visit omo ilinden & you'll see that they are being oppressed.I would state categorically that prior to occupation there would have been more than a million people but due to all sorts of pressures there are now 800,000 people there
                  which bulgaria coneveniently DENIES that it is doing & has done no wrong.THe police are constantly beating the people etc not allowing freedom to flourish nothing new.The greeks have done something similar.The tried to lie that there was no macedonian population in existence.
                  ""??On February 29, 2000, by decision of the Bulgarian Constitutional Court , UMO Ilinden–Pirin was expelled from the Bulgarian political system, as a separatist party. On November 25, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, condemned Bulgaria because of violations of the OMO Ilinden–Pirin's freedom of organising meetings.[1] The court stated that Bulgaria had violated Act 11 from the European Convention of Human Rights.
                  ""
                  On 26 June 2006, the party held a new founding meeting and provoked some controversy in the Bulgarian media. The meeting was held in the southwestern town of Gotse Delchev despite an IMRO-BNM protest demonstration. IMRO-BNM deputy Boris Yachev accused the Macedonian government of sponsoring the party with €75,000 and called for the recall of the Macedonian ambassador Abdurahman Aliti. The party's leader, Stojko Stojkov, called the party Bulgarian and not ethnically based.[3]

                  On July 30 Sofia's City Court confirmed the decision to deny registration; the arguments advanced by the court were, among others, that the necessary quorum of 530 signatures had not been reached and that there were many irregularities among those presented.

                  Despite its present uncertain status, UMO Ilinden–Pirin has been accepted as a full member of the European Free Alliance in April 2007.
                  Your govt Bulgarian is not as pure as the whitedriven snow Razer.
                  Last edited by George S.; 05-20-2012, 06:24 AM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Razer View Post
                    I was here during the census and monitored it with great interest. From what I saw, there was never an anti-Macedonia atmosphere.
                    Perhaps you only saw what you wanted to. I think you need a reality check mate, you're trying to paint this false picture of most Bulgarians being OK with Macedonians, talking rubbish like there are less than a thousand people who identify as Macedonians in Blagoevgrad just because that is what it apparently says on your BS census (because your government is afraid of the truth and needs to intimidate other ethnicities), etc, you're starting to sound like one of your neighbours down south. Many Bulgarians are anti-Macedonian, that is a fact. We hear it almost every other week, be it from some 'scholar' like Dimitrov, politician like Borisov, thugs and police who threaten Macedonians when they want to express pride in their own history and culture, and the usual dose of morony over the internet. Aside from a guy who went by the name of "Nikola Plovdiv" or something like that, you are the only Bulgarian EVER that I have seen on the net who hasn't acted like a complete dick within the first few posts where it concerns Macedonians. I mean, if so many of your people are not anti-Macedonian, where the hell are they?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      #40
                      OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN is a democratic party in the Republic of Bulgaria, that protects the rights of the minorities and strives for the decentralization of the country. It is the only political party that fights for the rights of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. The party operates mainly in the south-western region of the country, also known as Pirin Macedonia. It was registered as a political party in 1999 and participated in municipal elections in October 1999, where it elected five local officials. However, on February 29, 2000, the Constitutional Court in Bulgaria declared OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN unconstitutional. This was in direct violation of the right to freedom of association and the right to freedom from discrimination.

                      The Bulgarian government refuses to acknowledge the existence of the large Macedonian minority in Pirin Macedonia and continues to violate its basic human rights. Members and supporters of OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (political party and human rights organization) and OMO Ilinden (human and minority rights organization) have been videotaped, harrassed, beaten, fined, and even imprisoned simply for asserting their ethnic Macedonian identity.
                      Here' it is Razer exactly what i have been saying but you are denying it.Look at what the govt is doing oppressing the people violating basic human rights,People can't identify as macedonian & get beaten for being macedonia.So far razer you have not renounced what the bulgarian govt is doing & has done.You think everything is ok.After all this you think they are going to show how many macedonians there are,not on your life.Razer you are supporting what the bulgarian govt is doing admit it!
                      Last edited by George S.; 05-20-2012, 06:39 AM. Reason: ed
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #41
                        Have a look at the following Documents
                        Democratic movement for human and minority rights in Bulgaria. Party for integration, development and economic advancement.


                        REPORT on THE CENSUS IN BULGARIA 2011
                        UNITED MACEDONIAN ORGANIZATION "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        PARTY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INTEGRATION OF THE POPULATION

                        ДОКЛАД за ПРЕБРОЯВАНЕТО НА НАСЕЛЕНИЕТО В БЪЛГАРИЯ 2011
                        UNITED MACEDONIAN ORGANIZATION "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        PARTY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INTEGRATION OF THE POPULATION

                        PROGRAM OF OMO "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        UNITED MACEDONIAN ORGANIZATION "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        PARTY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INTEGRATION OF THE POPULATION

                        CONTSTITUTION OF OMO "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        UNITED MACEDONIAN ORGANIZATION "ILINDEN" - PIRIN
                        PARTY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND INTEGRATION OF THE POPULATION

                        УЧРЕДИТЕЛНА ДЕКЛАРАЦИЯ
                        на Инициативния комитет за учредяване (възстановяване) на
                        ОБЕДИНЕНА МАКЕДОНСКА ОРГАНИЗАЦИЯ “ИЛИНДЕН“ - ПИРИН
                        ПАРТИЯ ЗА ИКОНОМИЧЕСКО РАЗВИТИЕ И ИНТЕГРАЦИЯ НА НАСЕЛЕНИЕТО

                        УСТАВ НА ОМО “ИЛИНДЕН“ - ПИРИН
                        ОБЕДИНЕНА МАКЕДОНСКА ОРГАНИЗАЦИЯ “ИЛИНДЕН“ - ПИРИН
                        ПАРТИЯ ЗА ИКОНОМИЧЕСКО РАЗВИТИЕ И ИНТЕГРАЦИЯ НА НАСЕЛЕНИЕТО

                        ПРОГРАМА НА ОМО “ИЛИНДЕН“ - ПИРИН
                        ОБЕДИНЕТА МАКЕДОНСКА ОРГАНИЗАЦИЈА “ИЛИНДЕН“ - ПИРИН
                        ПАРТИЈА ЗА ЕКОНОМСКИ РАЗВОЈ И ИНТЕГРАЦИЈА НА НАСЕЛЕНИЕТО
                        Razer all confirming what's going on in pirin.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          #42
                          Razer if you are still in denial look at this:
                          Macedonians in Bulgaria are subject to discrimination and human rights abuses when asserting their ethnic Macedonian identity. In particular, members and supporters of OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (political party and human rights organization) and OMO Ilinden (human and minority rights organization) face varying degrees of discrimination when participating in the activities listed below. Macedonians have been videotaped, harrassed, beaten, fined, and even imprisoned simply for taking part in these important Macedonian cultural events.

                          For more information please see the MHRMC's 2001 Annual Report - The Macedonian Minority in Bulgaria

                          February - Blagoevgrad
                          Commemoration in honour of Macedonian hero Gotse Delchev's birthday

                          April - Sandanski
                          Anniversary of Macedonian revolutionary Yane Sandanski's death

                          May - Blagoevgrad
                          Anniversary of the killing of Macedonian hero Gotse Delchev

                          July/August - Petrich
                          Celebration of the Ilinden uprising of August 2, 1903

                          September - Blagoevgrad
                          Commemoration in honour of dead Macedonian soldiers of Vartolomey Night (massacre of Macedonians in Bulgaria in 1924)
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            #43
                            Huge discrepancies & roughting in the census.Manupilation of census form etc:
                            1.b. Period of denial and interrogation (1963 – 1989)
                            After the stepping into power of the dictator Todor Zhivkov in 1956 starts gradual change of the policies towards the minorities. One of the first victims of the new political line is the Macedonian minority. After several years of internal party struggles the resistance of the Macedonian lobby in BCP with its leader the Prime Minister Anton Jugov - a former activist of VMRO (united) is broken and the main leaders forced away. Officially the new policy had been proclaimed on a plenum of CC of BCP which took place on 11 March 1963. Its motto becomes the words of the dictator Zhivkov on the same plenum:
                            „The population of Pirin area is a part of the Bulgarian nation. There is no Macedonian nationality there and cannot be’’,
                            And the Macedonian nation had been called ‗the so called Macedonian nation‘5. Immediately after the change of the policy had been taken strict and various actions for assimilation of the Macedonians (turning them into Bulgarians) – actions starting from the kindergarten to the pensioner‘s clubs and from the libraries to prohibition to sing and listen to Macedonian songs. Despite this and despite the strict measures taken in 1965 during the census 9 632 (6)people declared that they were Macedonians. Many who denied to accept to new policy had been sent to prison or interned inside Bulgaria where because of their great scatterings and smaller number was hard for the authorities to take the immense measures they had taken in Pirin Macedonia.In Pirin Macedonia just following the traditional communist pattern the number of the Macedonians was taken under 1 %.6
                            On the census in 1975 wasn‘t given any right to declare Macedonian or any other minority identity – it had been conducted on the idea of a united Bulgarian socialist nation. The census planned for 1985 was called off because of problems with ‗The Revival Process‘ of the Turks and the Roma people – just other victims of the serial nationalist politics of the communist regime.
                            Fact of manipulations:
                            During the first census after the fall of communism in the local media in Pirin Macedonia have been published a series of announcements which alarmed the public for the danger which the great number of declared as Macedonians represent. In those announcements are pointed concrete villages in which over 80 % of the people had declared themselves Macedonians (concretely were quoted the villages of Ilindenci, Mikrevo and others) and some of these announcements claim that in towns as Sandanski and Petrich the percentage of the declaring as Macedonians varies between 20 and 30 %. In all of those publications the main motive is to stigmatize this occurrence as anti-state and anti-patriotic and to justify the authorities‘ actions against its existence. During the census took place many irregularities and manipulations had been ascertained (at which we‘ll take a look a bit later). When later the official results had been revealed the number of Macedonians was highly under the expected one obviously because of the mentioned announcements in the press. Instead of the number 225 000 which would have been expected taking in mind the last free census (1956) and the respective population growth or even at least 50 000 which could have been expected in order of the mentioned press releases, the official final result was 10 803 people declared as Macedonians.
                            CENSUS 2011
                            1. Events on the eve of census – January 2011.
                            Since only one of all requests and proposals of the Macedonian organizations have been met, notably it was the prohibition of the use of other means of writing except pens15, and taking into account the previous experience, and the extremely negative atmosphere created after the events of September 2010, on 16 January 2011 on a meeting in the town of Gotse Delchev many Macedonian organizations confirmed their position that they would not recognise the results of the census. These were OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN, Assembly of the repressed Macedonians, TMO IMRO (independent), Macedonian Christian brotherhood "St. Prophet Ilias", CPA ‗‘Nikola Vaptsarov‘‘, CPA "Tsar Samuil", CPA "Ilinden". The Macedonian newspapers "Narodna Volia(People's will)" and "Macedonian voice" also joined.
                            Around 20 January OMO Ilinden-PIRIN" organized the distribution of 25 000 leaflets appealing to the people with Macedonian conscience freely and without fear to declare their identity .This democratic manifestation was followed by expected counter campaign in the media. It started with press conference given by the extremist ultra nationalistic IMRO NIE in Blagoevgrad. The leaflets were characterized as manipulative attempt to seed Macedonian conscience in the Bulgarians from Pirin Macedonia, also it was claimed that the campaign was financed by the Macedonian special agencies.The party made a threat that it " will summon the District Prosecutor's Office in Blagoevgrad to deal with the case and to punish the authors and distributors of the anti-Bulgarian leaflets". The media pays it a great attention. For example, the regional newspaper "Struma" on 24 January 2011 on its first page published threats of this party against the distributors of the leaflets and that they would be dealt by the Prosecutor's Office. The distribution itself is presented as an attempt of the Macedonian secret services to create problems to Bulgaria. The information is conveyed by influential media as national Darik radio and newspaper ‗‘Monitor ". In the publication of "Monitor" and sourcing from it media the distribution is called "illegal propaganda campaign", "illicit distribution" and "criminally distributed leaflets" and is quoted, that distributors will be given to the Prosecution. This news is published in various electronic media.16
                            This time, however, the authorities refrain to take a media advertised investigation.
                            15 This requirement is well underlined in the Tutorial for completing the census card on page 8.
                            16 Darik News, 24 January 2011, Bulgarians being Macedonized in the Census? http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=657700, transferred by Dnes +. http://dnesplus.bg/News.aspx?n=518543. The publication in "Monitor" is quoted from a publication in Actualno.com, transmitted by Novini.bg http://www.novinibg.com/news/7788 and Kurier.bg http://kurier.bg/bulgaria/14935.html.
                            For the distribution of leaflets in the town of Sandanski activists of OMO Ilinden-PIRIN "reported that they had noticed greater police presence and surveillance of distributors of flyers from police cars and standing on the streets policemen, but there have been no incidents.
                            On 31.01.2011, in the morning, officers of the State Agency for National Security (SANS) thrust into the printing firm "Iranik-M" in Blagoevgrad and without display order and without giving any explanation confiscated the just printed and still undistributed bulletin "Macedonian voice" in the full edition of 2500 numbers, dedicated mainly to the forthcoming census in Bulgaria, which would begin on 1 February 2011.The Director of the printing firm Stoyan Nikolov Mihailov and one of the workers Ivaylo Ljubchov Mitev were taken by the officers of SANS in the building of the Ministry of Interior affairs in Blagoevgrad and detained throughout the day as they were made to write explanations about the printing of the bulletin. Throughout this time, the staff of the National Security Agency refused to show any order and to give any explanation for their illegal actions. The confiscated bulletin has not been returned.
                            Two complaints have been logged. One to MIA Blagoevgrad and the other to the Public Prosecutor's Office. Receipt was obtained from the Ministry of the Interior 13 days after sending the letter, from the Public Prosecutor's Office nothing was ever explained about this actions. On February 14, was received a response from the MIA dated 8 February and signed by Director J. Kochev, in which it is alleged that employees of the District Ministry of Interior or the City Police of Blagoevgrad, have not participated in such actions, that similar actions have not been reported nor did the local Police help the authorities of SANS (it is common practice the officers of SANS in actions followed by seizure and confiscations to be accompanied by uniformed staff of MIA). The Public Prosecutor‘s Office did not send any answer again. However, the case was moved from the Public Prosecutor's Office to the internal security of the MIA, which, through its representative Georgi Atanasov Chikov conducted meeting with the person who sent the appeals to the Office - Stoyko Stoykov on 17 February in the town of Sandanski. Stoykov once more wrote everything to the best of his knowledge of the case and indicated how it can be verified who the involved were: through the entry book of MIA (in which building he arrested printers were held all day), by the name of the called lawyer and by the testimony given by detainees. Stoykov repeatedly stressed that his interrogation is pointless since he was not witness and directed the staff of the internal security to the victimized printers and especially to the owner Nikolov who were the real witnesses. But although he gave the telephone number of the owner of the printing firm on a telephone conversation, on 15 February and again on 17th until the date of submission of this report (20 March) the representatives of the internal security neither have visited, nor have questioned the real witnesses or their lawyer. No new information has been received on the case of the investigation of internal security of MIA or by the Public Prosecutor's Office.
                            Practically at the time of completion of the report it would not be underestimated the statement that the bulletin is illegally confiscated by the employees of SANS in serious ignorance of the law and the rights of the citizens.
                            So Razer everything was above board according to you.
                            Last edited by George S.; 05-20-2012, 07:24 AM. Reason: ed
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • Razer
                              Banned
                              • May 2012
                              • 395

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Bij View Post
                              Razer, I once met some Macedonians on holidays in Bitola from South Africa. They were females but said they loved Macedonia because they had the freedom to walk down the street, which they did not have in SA. Also spoke of many former Yugoslav families that own mines down there who all hang out together and away from the SA population. Did you find SA unsafe? Were you able to walk down the street safely without any problems? Was your family in mining? Did you socialise with serbs, bosnians, macedonians there or south africans? Are there many there from the Balkans?
                              Hi,

                              Crime in SA is still the biggest problem. Cape Town is safer, but you still need to watch your back when you walk at night and even during the day in some areas. Otherwise life is ok there, but you're a lot more disconnected from the rest of the world and it's kind of like living in a bubble...I only learned about the tension between Macedonia and Bulgaria in 2007, and was shocked to be honest. And yes - I did have friends from Serbia and Romania, but sadly never met a Macedonian. I'm sure we would have enjoyed a good friendship.
                              Last edited by Razer; 05-20-2012, 07:35 AM.

                              Comment

                              • AMHRC
                                De-registered
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 919

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Razer View Post
                                Hi AMHRC,

                                I was here during the census and monitored it with great interest. From what I saw, there was never an anti-Macedonia atmosphere. I find this crazy and here is why:

                                1. For the first 10 days of the census, the data was collected electronically via the internet. This is how 41.2% of the total information was gathered, or something like 3,000,000 people. You just seat at home and do it, without anyone pressuring you.

                                2. The remaining data was collected by officials (40 000 I think) who were mainly young students and pensioners who just wanted to make some extra cash.

                                Here is a link to the results. You can find the Macedonian results in the 7th tab, called Citizenship, and under Outside EU.



                                Overall, the article is making some very scary and daring statements without putting specific information on the table. I do agree that reading it you get the feeling that Bulgarians are "out to get you", which is far from reality.
                                That is simply untenable. That article summarises numerous eyewitness accounts gathered by representatives of OMO "Ilinden" Pirin and it explains the rapid and simply unbelievable decline in the number of people identifying as ethnically Macedonian.

                                Considerably more than 561 people from the "Blagoevgrad" region who identify as Macedonian, recently attended the annual Sandanski festival organised by OMO and other Macedonian organisations in Melnik - your contentions are either ignorant or simply deceitful.

                                Before making any further claims, you had better read the report prepared earlier this year by the United Nations' Expert on Minority Issues:

                                UN Expert Recommends Bulgaria Recognise Its Macedonian Minority

                                Blagoevgrad/Gorna Dzumaja (Bulgaria), Melbourne (Australia) and Toronto (Canada)

                                OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN, the political party of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria, together with the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) welcome the recent release of the report of the United Nations Independent Expert on Minority Issues on the situation in Bulgaria.

                                The report was made public on 3 January 2012 by the newly appointed UN Independent Expert, Ms. Rita Izsak and follows the visit to Bulgaria in July 2011 of her predecessor, Ms Gay McDougall. During the visit to Bulgaria, the Independent Expert met with representatives of the Macedonian minority in the country. The delegation comprised of: Stojko Stojkov, Co-President of OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN and Stahil Tupalski, Central Council Member of OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN; Stojan Gerasimov from the Society of Repressed Macedonians; and Georgi Hristov, the Chief Editor of the pro-Macedonian newspaper, Narodna Volja. The meeting gave the Macedonian organisations the opportunity to provide the Independent Expert with a first hand, documented account of the problems facing the Macedonian population in Bulgaria.

                                The post-visit report made a number of observations in relation to the situation of minorities in Bulgaria. In paragraphs 66-67, devoted to the Macedonian minority, the Independent Expert noted that:

                                "66. Article 54 of the Bulgarian Constitution states that "everyone shall have the right to avail himself of the national and universal human cultural values and to develop his own culture in accordance with his ethnic self-identification, which shall be recognized and guaranteed by the law." However, the Government denies the existence of an ethnic Macedonian minority, and does not recognize the Pomaks (considered as Bulgarian-speaking Muslims by the Government) as a distinct minority – claiming that both groups are in fact ethnic Bulgarians. Representatives of those who self-identify as ethnic Macedonians and as Pomaks claim that their minority rights are consequently violated.

                                67. Ethnic Macedonians consider it of crucial importance that their ethnic identity and distinctiveness be officially recognized. Community representatives strongly dispute census findings reflecting very low and declining numbers of Macedonians,and claim that the true population is many times higher. The Macedonian language is not recognized or taught in schools and Macedonians are not represented on the National Council for Cooperation on Ethnic and Integration Issues.

                                Most significantly though, the Independent Expert made a number of significant recommendations in relation to the recognition of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria.

                                In relation to respect for self-identification the Independent Expert recommended that:

                                "93. In accordance with its Constitutional provisions to respect the right to ethnic self-identification, the Government should ensure and protect this right, as well as the rights to freedom of expression and freedom of association of members of the Macedonian and Pomak minorities.

                                94. Policies relating to the recognition and rights of minority groups must be assessed in relation to the State's obligations under international human rights law. Article 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states that "in those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities exist, persons belonging to such minorities shall not be denied the right, in community with the other members of their group, to enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion, or to use their own language." The question of the existence of minorities is addressed by the Human Rights Committee in its general comment No. 23 (1994) on the rights of minorities. Article 5.2 states that "the existence of an ethnic, religious or linguistic minority in a given State party does not depend upon a decision by that State party but requires to be established by objective criteria."

                                95. With regard to identification with a particular racial or ethnic group, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has established in its general recommendation No. 8 (1990) on article 1 of the Convention that "such identification shall, if no justification exists to the contrary, be based upon self-identification by the individual concerned." The right of individuals to freely identify as belonging to an ethnic, religious or linguistic group is therefore established in international law. Domestic law should recognize such rights and ensure that no individual or group suffers from any disadvantage or discriminatory treatment on the basis of their freely chosen identity as belonging (or not) to an ethnic, religious, linguistic or any other group.

                                On Bulgaria's refusal to abide by judgements of the European Court of Human Rights, the views of the Independent Expert were quite explicit:

                                96. Bulgaria should comply fully with the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) relating to persons belonging to such communities and implement its rulings without further delay. Associations should be allowed to register and function without impediment, use their chosen names and express their ethnic identities freely. Associations that have been denied in the past should promptly be given official registration.

                                The Independent Expert also recommended the introduction of the Macedonian language to the Bulgarian education system:

                                "97. The Government's position not to allow the use of mother tongue languages as the language of instruction in schools, particularly in regions where minorities are a majority or constitute a large percentage of the population, is a concern for minorities, including the Roma, Turkish Muslims and Macedonians. Bilingual education commencing in the early years of schooling would enable children to become proficient in their mother tongue as well as in Bulgarian. Furthermore, it would enable them to maintain their ethnic and linguistic identity and help minority pupils to achieve positive educational outcomes. The Government is urged to consider introducing bilingual education and to ratify the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages"

                                OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN, the political party of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria, together with the Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee (AMHRC) and Macedonian Human Rights Movement International (MHRMI) demand that the Bulgarian Government to take note of the report of the UN Independent Expert on Minority Issues and implement, in full and without delay, each of the recommendations contained in the report.

                                The full report can be downloaded here:
                                Last edited by AMHRC; 05-20-2012, 07:42 AM.

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