United Macedonia Diaspora - Page 23

Volk · 05-14-2009, 09:46 PM

Nice post Risto

One thing that perplexes me how do we get rid of the framework agreement without starting a new war? It seems to me the albanians are looking for any excuse to start one as thier ultimate goal is to create 'ilrida'

Or is this a war we simply need? is there such thing? Do we ignore this? Or is this just a statement of principal?

Risto the Great · 05-14-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volk

One thing that perplexes me how do we get rid of the framework agreement without starting a new war? It seems to me the albanians are looking for any excuse to start one as thier ultimate goal is to create 'ilrida'

Or is this a war we simply need? is there such thing? Do we ignore this? Or is this just a statement of principal?

This is the point.
Would any other country accept such a compromised agreement that strikes at the sovereignty of a nation so wickedly?

I am looking for an organisation that totally opposes the Ohrid Agreement in principle and in reality. Do we in the Diaspora need to make nice noises that we are interested in dialogue about the erosion of our identity for the sake of terrorists? Are we afraid of war with "Illirida"?

What is California doing about its Mexican minority? Why don't we adopt a purely American model to ensure consistency for the Yanks when they come to Macedonia?

We have no need to be nice, look at what has happened so far.

Rogi · 05-14-2009, 10:17 PM

Great post Risto!

For those unaware, I did begin writing a draft definition of the Macedonian Cause. Here is what I came up with, I'm hoping for all your feedback so we can write up the real and defined Macedonian Cause.
http://www.artofmacedonism.com/

Bear in mind, this should be a document that should also show our descendants 100, 200 years and further into the future, what our cause was and what we believed in. It must be absolute and unwavering, it must not be something that can be interpreted in different way, etc.

Volk, on your question about how to get rrid of the Framework Agreement...

Well, our very first problem is that we have to all agree that we want to get rid of the Framework Agreement.

First step is that we have to all agree that it is a treacherous document.

Next we have to declare that our task, efforts and goal is to get rid of the Framework Agreement. So we now know we are working to get rid of the Framework Agreement.

Then and only then, can we actually begin working toward that and working out a plan on achieving that goal, and the differing routes that can be taken to achieving that.

I can tell you that everyone behind UMD for example believes the Framework Agreement is treacherous.

However, UMD as an organisation has not declared to work against it nor to get rid of it, rather it has been accepted.

There is no Diaspora-based organisation which has set a task to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement as one of the steps toward achievement of the goals of the Macedonian Cause.

The World Macedonian Congress, as a Macedonian organisation based in the Republic of Macedonia has set a goal to get rid of the Framework Agreement. It may even be the only organisation to do so.

The WMC was the initiator of the referendum in Macedonia, calling for the abolishment of the Framework Agreement. Though that initiative failed at referendum, they are at least taking an active approach to achieving that task.

So, now that we agree it is a treacherous document of which Macedonia must rid itself, and we agree that it is our task to get rid of that document, we work on a plan.

There are a number of alternatives, each which should be looked at in detail, and weighed up, and then acted upon. For example, one such possibility is to take certain parts of the Ohrid Agreement, or the entire document, to the Constitutional Court in Macedonia. Much like the Sorosoid NGO's have taken the 'baby bonus' Law in Macedonia to the Constitutional Court on that same basis sections like that of minority languages where minorities Constitute 20% of a population their language is the second official language - it can be argued as discriminatory against smaller minorities and there is basis for calls of its abolishment.

There are a number of options and it is not unrealistic to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement. The Albanians themselves are calling for the Ohrid Agreement to be abolished and a 'new Agreement' to be put in its place, whilst Macedonians are afraid to talk about getting rid of the Ohrid Agreement, accepting it as the 'reality'.

Imagine Martin Luther King accepting slavery as reality and leaving it as is...

Vangelovski · 05-14-2009, 11:03 PM

Volk,

Rather than trying to convince everyone to accept your defeatist view of the world, why don't you learn something about how (and why) Macedonians inside ethno-historic Macedonia and in the diaspora are 'fighting' for human rights.

Vangelovski · 05-14-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogi

There is no Diaspora-based organisation which has set a task to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement as one of the steps toward achievement of the goals of the Macedonian Cause.

Rogi,

There are many Diaspora organisations that oppose the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord - from the very begining - some of them are in your own backyard (Sydney and now Canberra).

Volk · 05-14-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

There are many Diaspora organisations that oppose the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord - from the very begining - some of them are in your own backyard (Sydney and now Canberra).

There is a difference between opposing and actually engaging against its implementation. Dont think to many have done this besides SMK at the beginning.

Volk · 05-14-2009, 11:55 PM

Tom,

read my post again, if you have trouble understanding it try and learn something new about what our oppressors are doing to eliminate us from the face of the earth. Our cause is bigger than your ego

Vangelovski · 05-15-2009, 12:06 AM

Volk,

I can only reply with what I already said:

Rather than trying to convince everyone to accept your defeatist view of the world, why don't you learn something about how (and why) Macedonians inside ethno-historic Macedonia and in the diaspora are 'fighting' for human rights.

Vangelovski · 05-15-2009, 12:12 AM

Volk, you should get around more. Just because you've been sleeping, don't assume everyone else has as well.

Rogi · 05-15-2009, 12:22 AM

Tom, please do share.

I'm yet to hear of any organisation in the Diaspora (or anywhere) other than the WMC having done anything proactive in terms of getting rid of the Framework Agreement. I know that just about every single organisation does oppose it, but nobody is actively working on that - as far as I know. I'm not saying there is none, I just haven't heard of anyone doing anything. I'd love to be wrong and I'd love to hear what has been done, in fact I'm sure most of us on this forum would and would offer our help in whatever way required.

As far as I am aware, even the organisation "Dostoinstvo" which I hold in the highest esteem, has still not made such calls for abolishment of the Framework Agreement. Though, personally I'm hoping that they lead the way on the ground for it.

View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
Yes	2	4.35%
No	44	95.65%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

05-14-2009, 09:46 PM	#221
Volk Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 894	Nice post Risto One thing that perplexes me how do we get rid of the framework agreement without starting a new war? It seems to me the albanians are looking for any excuse to start one as thier ultimate goal is to create 'ilrida' Or is this a war we simply need? is there such thing? Do we ignore this? Or is this just a statement of principal? __________________ Makedonija vo Srce

05-14-2009, 10:17 PM	#223
Rogi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,343	Great post Risto! For those unaware, I did begin writing a draft definition of the Macedonian Cause. Here is what I came up with, I'm hoping for all your feedback so we can write up the real and defined Macedonian Cause. http://www.artofmacedonism.com/ Bear in mind, this should be a document that should also show our descendants 100, 200 years and further into the future, what our cause was and what we believed in. It must be absolute and unwavering, it must not be something that can be interpreted in different way, etc. Volk, on your question about how to get rrid of the Framework Agreement... Well, our very first problem is that we have to all agree that we want to get rid of the Framework Agreement. First step is that we have to all agree that it is a treacherous document. Next we have to declare that our task, efforts and goal is to get rid of the Framework Agreement. So we now know we are working to get rid of the Framework Agreement. Then and only then, can we actually begin working toward that and working out a plan on achieving that goal, and the differing routes that can be taken to achieving that. I can tell you that everyone behind UMD for example believes the Framework Agreement is treacherous. However, UMD as an organisation has not declared to work against it nor to get rid of it, rather it has been accepted. There is no Diaspora-based organisation which has set a task to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement as one of the steps toward achievement of the goals of the Macedonian Cause. The World Macedonian Congress, as a Macedonian organisation based in the Republic of Macedonia has set a goal to get rid of the Framework Agreement. It may even be the only organisation to do so. The WMC was the initiator of the referendum in Macedonia, calling for the abolishment of the Framework Agreement. Though that initiative failed at referendum, they are at least taking an active approach to achieving that task. So, now that we agree it is a treacherous document of which Macedonia must rid itself, and we agree that it is our task to get rid of that document, we work on a plan. There are a number of alternatives, each which should be looked at in detail, and weighed up, and then acted upon. For example, one such possibility is to take certain parts of the Ohrid Agreement, or the entire document, to the Constitutional Court in Macedonia. Much like the Sorosoid NGO's have taken the 'baby bonus' Law in Macedonia to the Constitutional Court on that same basis sections like that of minority languages where minorities Constitute 20% of a population their language is the second official language - it can be argued as discriminatory against smaller minorities and there is basis for calls of its abolishment. There are a number of options and it is not unrealistic to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement. The Albanians themselves are calling for the Ohrid Agreement to be abolished and a 'new Agreement' to be put in its place, whilst Macedonians are afraid to talk about getting rid of the Ohrid Agreement, accepting it as the 'reality'. Imagine Martin Luther King accepting slavery as reality and leaving it as is... Last edited by Rogi; 05-15-2009 at 12:14 AM.

05-14-2009, 11:03 PM	#224
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, Rather than trying to convince everyone to accept your defeatist view of the world, why don't you learn something about how (and why) Macedonians inside ethno-historic Macedonia and in the diaspora are 'fighting' for human rights. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

05-14-2009, 11:55 PM	#227
Volk Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 894	Tom, read my post again, if you have trouble understanding it try and learn something new about what our oppressors are doing to eliminate us from the face of the earth. Our cause is bigger than your ego __________________ Makedonija vo Srce

05-15-2009, 12:06 AM	#228
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, I can only reply with what I already said: Rather than trying to convince everyone to accept your defeatist view of the world, why don't you learn something about how (and why) Macedonians inside ethno-historic Macedonia and in the diaspora are 'fighting' for human rights. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

05-15-2009, 12:12 AM	#229
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,521	Volk, you should get around more. Just because you've been sleeping, don't assume everyone else has as well. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

05-15-2009, 12:22 AM	#230
Rogi Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,343	Tom, please do share. I'm yet to hear of any organisation in the Diaspora (or anywhere) other than the WMC having done anything proactive in terms of getting rid of the Framework Agreement. I know that just about every single organisation does oppose it, but nobody is actively working on that - as far as I know. I'm not saying there is none, I just haven't heard of anyone doing anything. I'd love to be wrong and I'd love to hear what has been done, in fact I'm sure most of us on this forum would and would offer our help in whatever way required. As far as I am aware, even the organisation "Dostoinstvo" which I hold in the highest esteem, has still not made such calls for abolishment of the Framework Agreement. Though, personally I'm hoping that they lead the way on the ground for it.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)