Slavonic elements in the Romanian language

[makedonin]

I was thinking about that text but forgot the title, thanks for posting it Makedonin. What century is that text from?

You are welcome SoM.

According to the official Romanian site, the text is from the 1521 year.

For more, click here

What I find interesting is the use of

I pak (=and again)

Pozdrav

[Bratot]

I could also mention the title VOIVODA in Romania, which is from Slavic origin.

One of the famous Romanian Voivodi is Vladislav - Dracula



Or the name of Istanbul - CARIGRAD
ЦАРИГРАД



"Day of wrath for Eastern Christendom, depicted on a Romanian fresco, came on May 29, 1453, when Constantinople fell after a seven-week siege by Mehmed II and 100,000 Ottoman troops. Manned by 8,000 defenders, the walls proved invincible to the largest cannon the world had yet seen—until a lightly guarded portal offered a way in."




ПРИДЈЕТЕ БЛАГОСЛОВЕНИ ОЦА МОЕГО НАСЛЈЕДУИТЕ ЦАРСТВО НЕБЕСНОЕ




Vlachia and Moldova were under Ohrid Archbishop jurisdiction, and most of the Romanian population has been slavophone.

[Risto the Great]

I have met quite a few Romanians.
I find them quite similar to Macedonians in mannerisms and belief systems.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You are welcome SoM.

According to the official Romanian site, the text is from the 1521 year.

Thanks again Makedonin! Here is some more information, an Archbishopric was established in Romanian lands in the 14th century, effectively ending the direct control of the Romanian churches by the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia. However, the Slavonic element in the language of the people continued to prevail for centuries later, as is evidenced by the document from the year 1521. As a Romanian, I would be finding it pretty hard to justify how the language of this document, which is clearly Slavonic, has any relation to the language Romanians speak today.

[Delodephius]

The text you guys are talking about is in OCS, which was the official language of the Romanian lands and church for the better part of the last millennium.

[Soldier of Macedon]

But the Romanian link says that it the first text from the Romanian language? This does not seem like a church document, so why would Slavonic still be used? Could it be how the Romanian language looked in the early 16th century?

[Delodephius]

That is only the first sentence of "Neacşu's Letter". The last sentence is also in OCS as well as few words in the text. You should look at the whole thing before making conclusions:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_letter_of_Neac%C5%9Fu_of_C%C3%A2mpulung

Mudromu i plemenitomu, i čistitomu i Bogom darovannomu župan Hanĭš Begner ot Brašov mnogo zdravie ot Někšul ot Dlŭgopole

I pak dau štire domnďetale za lukrul Turčilor kum amĭ auzit ču kŭ ĩpŭratul au čšit den Sofďę, ši aimintrě nue ši sěu dus ĩ sus pre Dunŭre.
I pak sŭ štďi domnďjata kŭ au venit un ωm de la Nikopoe de mďe měu spus kŭ au vŭzut ku ωkďi loi kŭ au trekut čěle korabďi če štďi ši domnďjata pre Dunŭre ĩ sus.
I pak sŭ štďi kŭ bagŭ den tote ωrašele kŭte de ωmin sŭ ę fďe ĩn ažutor ĩ korabďi.
I pak sŭ štďi kumu sěu prinsŭ nešte meššter den Carigrad kum vorĭ trěče ačěle korabďi la lokul čela strimtul če šttďi ši domnďjata.
I pak spui domnďetale de lukrul lu Mahamet beg, kumu amĭ auzit de boęri če sŭntĭ medžďjaš ši de dženere-mďu Negre, kumu ęu dat ĩpŭratul slobozďe lu Mahamet beg, pre iu iωi va fi voę, pren Těra Rumŭněskŭ, jarŭ člĭ sŭ trěkŭ.
I pak sŭ štďi domnďjata kŭ are frikŭ mare ši Bŭsŭrab de ačel lotru de Mahamet beg, mai vŭrtos de domnďele vostre.
I pak spui domnďetale ka mai marele mďu, De če amĭ ĩceles šďeu eu. Spui domnďetale jarŭ domnďjata ešti ĩceleptĭ ši ačěste kuvinte sŭ cďi domnďjata la tine, sŭ nu štďe umin mulci ši domnďele vostre sŭ vŭ pŭzici kum štici mai bine.

I Bogĭ te veselit. Aminŭ.

[Risto the Great]

The text you guys are talking about is in OCS, which was the official language of the Romanian lands and church for the better part of the last millennium.

Which makes them pure Macedonian based on long standing Hellenic scientific methodologies.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Slovak, maybe you could show the whole original text if you already had it located so we don't base what we know on only part of the information available. You yourself have supported the theory of heavy Slavonic elements in Romanian, perhaps you could share some information on it so we can make our conclusions more solid?

[Delodephius]

I didn't have the text before your previous post, so I didn't know. I just knew that Romanian is a very conservative language and that it is very close to the Latin it originates from, henceforth the above posted couldn't be nothing else but Slavonic and not Old Romanian. Secondly, knowing that Romanians used primarily Slavonic as the written language I concluded that if the text indeed was the whole of the letter, then it couldn't be that that was the oldest Romanian text otherwise it would be in a Romanian looking language. So I searched the net and found that that which Makedonin quoted above is just a part of it. Then I searched for the whole text and once I found I confirmed what I thought. The End.

I cannot give you my opinion on how much Romanian was influenced by Slavonic except from what I myself read once long ago that it was about 10-20%. In the past it was something like 30%, some 500 years ago.
I do know it didn't have almost any influence on it's grammar or phonology and that the influence is mostly in the area of vocabulary. What few influence on grammar it had is mostly that it made Romanian preserve some features other Romance languages lost, like the Neuter gender, which most foreign learners sometimes feel is mostly a mix of the Male and Female gender. And one thing it did take is the -o ending for the Vocative case.
In the rural areas they use a lot more vocabulary of Slavic origin (can't say how much and I don't want to guess, but there are no studies about it either). In cities the media promotes the usage of words of Romance origin.
The largest amount of words is from the area of crafts and trade, but some are from everyday life.

[osiris]

slovak have you ever considered why its so clos to latin, even more so than the latin based french. could it be because its in fact a recreation based on latin mirroring the recreation of a rumania based on the inscriptions on hadrians colum, that the land of dacia was part of the roman empire.

[Delodephius]

Romanian too is based on Latin, even more than the other Romance languages. Dacia was colonized rapidly and the only way the colonists could talk to one another if they all spoke one form of Latin instead of their local dialects. So the standard Latin was used. Like in the English colonies that people talk a dialect of standard English instead of the various dialects of England from where their ancestors came, because at one point they all had to use it because they were now living together instead of in diffeent regions, that is why American, Canadian, Australian dialects are actually closer to the older form of English than the dialects of Britain.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Romanian too is based on Latin, even more than the other Romance languages. Dacia was colonized rapidly and the only way the colonists could talk to one another if they all spoke one form of Latin instead of their local dialects. So the standard Latin was used. Like in the English colonies that people talk a dialect of standard English instead of the various dialects of England from where their ancestors came, because at one point they all had to use it because they were now living together instead of in diffeent regions, that is why American, Canadian, Australian dialects are actually closer to the older form of English than the dialects of Britain.

That makes sense. I just question the extent of the Slavic element in the people and language of Dacia. Do you believe the Dacians were related to the Slavic tribes north of the Danube in a similar way as the Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians, etc were?

[Delodephius]

I would think so. But, unlike for the other peoples of South-Eastern Europe, no claim has ever been made that Dacians were a Slavic speaking people in the past. Same way few have ever spoke of the Slavic speakers in what is today Hungary. This shows how people are only studying this for the sake of their own nationalism and patriotism instead of science and care only what was once in their own territorial boundaries or ambitions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Take a look at this map Slovak:



This is what gets me;

(1) The Latin settlement in Romania and the Germanic expansion into what would become Austria happened centuries before the southward invasion of Slavic tribes and rebels from the Danube. However:

(2) Many of the Slavic tribes were recorded by contemporaries as living in areas around and north of the Danube which include modern Austria, Hungary and Romania, which connects them continously with the rest of the Slavic tribes north of the Danube. Important to note is that there is no record of a Slavic migration into these lands either, which means that they would be native to the area prior to the arrival of Latin, Germanic, Turkic and Finno-Ugric peoples.

(3) Looking at the black arrows above in the picture, is it really plausable to assume that all of the Slavic tribes packed their bags and left at the same time in an unbroken line running parallel across Austria, Hungary and Romania? Did they all feel the same urge at the same time, were conditions the exact same on the Adriatic as the were on the Black Sea? It sounds very unlikely.

It would seem that the Slavic tribes that rebelled and invaded across the Danube were the last remnant of a much larger population in the territories immediately north of the Danube, which were pushed out by several foreign people, largely those Latin, Germanic and Turkic, where the last connection between the Slavic north and south was probably abolished with the Hungarians solidifying their presence in the region.

Slovak, does it have Slovaks or other Slavic-speakers in the region of Hungary which separates Slovakia from Serbia? How about Slavic placenames, I remember you saying that there are many in Hungary, are these located in the central region in between Slovakia and Serbia, or everywhere?