Who were the Aetolians?

[Bill77]

Since my post was edited and the link was deleted as... racist,

You show us a article written by a Grik, with some bullshit heading that Macedonian is another form of Greek, you can shove it up your ass. And besides, what has that got to do with this subject.

I re-submit a copy of the relevant part only.

Now Did that hurt you ????

Why couldn't you have submitted the relevant part from the start? oh yeh, that was not your motive of posting that link. You wanted us to see what this Greek from the American Chronicles thinks of our country which i am sure you condone. With references such as fyrom, Vardarska Banovina. You are a worm and a piece of shit. I can smell you. Rather than you risking being baned, and calling us by such terms, you try to rub our noses in this propaganda and and think you will get away with it, since you did not write it. Sorry turd, but this time i will shoot the messenger.

To Quote Jankovska,

"And who gives a fuck about what you or your nation thinks? You don't live in the real world, we all get that. So spare us the bullshit and stop ruining every thread with what the Greeks think".

[Soldier of Macedon]

Otherwise you have no idea, on what racism is, what spam is, which posts a forum-administrator should edit (look right above your post) etc. Why don't you start by reading you own rules?

Look here mate, when I read a bullshit article by some ignorant jester that has "psueo-makedonian" written in every second sentence, I consider that an insult to my people and consequently a racist remark against the Macedonians. Only an idiot would write that, and only an even larger idiot would support it.

Bill's language may be more colourful than mine but he is right on the money in this case, he gave as good as he got. Stop whining, and get on with it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

More from Livy on the Aetolians:

Philip.......went on to express his indignation at the Aetolians ordering him, just as if they were Romans, to evacuate Greece, when they could not tell within what boundaries Greece lies. Even in Aetolia itself the Agraei, the Apodoti and the Amphilochi, who form a considerable part of its population, are not included in Greece. (32, 34)

This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

Aetolia looks like a land originally speaking a Paleo-Balkan language that gradually adopted a Hellenic culture.

[tomovsk]

here's a passage from thucydides:
[5] the hellenic troops with him ( the spartan cnemus ) consisted of the ambraciots, leucadians, and anactorians, and the thousand peloponnesians with whom he came; the thousand BARBARIAN chaonians, who, belonging to a nation that has no king, were led by photys and nicanor, the two members of the royal family to whom the chieftainship for that year had been assigned. with the chaonians came also some thesprotians, like them without a king, [6] some molossians and atintanians led by sabylinthus, the guardian of king tharyps who was still a minor, and some parauaeans under their king oroedus, accompanied by a thousand ORESTIANS, subjects of king antiochus and placed by him under the command of oroedus.

(pg 137- 138 the landmark thucydides)

the text refers to a campaign against acarnania launched by the ambraciots, chaonians and the peloponnesians in the summer of 429 .

[tomovsk]

here's more :
[3] the order of march was as follows: the center was occupied by the CHAONIANS AND THE REST OF THE BARBARIANS, with the leucadians and anactorians and their followers on the right, and cnemus with the peloponnesians and ambraciots on the left; each division being a long way off from, and sometimes even out of sight of, the others.

( pg 139 the landmark thucydides )

a passage referring to the organization of the peloponnesians and their allies. the chaonians and their followers ( thesprotians, molossians, atintanians, parauaeans and orestians ) occupy the center of the line, while the hellenic forces occupy either wing.

[The LION will ROAR]

Greek Statesman and Historian. [c 200-118 B.C.]
The Rise of the Roman Empire

[4] (Book XVIII. 5) Philip V from Macedon responds to the Greek and Roman demands:

"But what is most outrageous of all is that they should attempt to put themselves on the same footing as the Romans and demand that the Macedonians should withdraw from the whole of Greece. To use such language is arrogant enough in the first place, but while we may endure this from the Romans, it is quite intolerable coming from the Aetolians. In any case,' he continued, 'what is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks! The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Aphilochians cannot be regarded as Greek. So do you allow me to remain in those territories."
From the above encounters we infer: They, the Greeks, would like to see him, King Philip V from Macedon, leave Greece and go to his own kingdom in Macedonia, and by the strongest implication, we concur that:

[Agamoi Thytai]

Strabo also refers to Macedonia as within 'Greece', but his subsequent elaboration clearly indicates that this is a geographical designation that was used in his time.

On the contrary,Strabo says that although he considers Macedonia as part of Greece,he describes Macedonia in a separate chapter out of geographical reasons only:

"Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7Fragments*.html#9

Epirot, I can't see why any Greek would consider the above quote you posted as working in their favour. Who is the author?

Of course you can't see how this quote works in Greek favour,because he left conveniently out the crucial point.Let's see what he omited:

"Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times."

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=59609&pageno=136Titus%20Livius

The one who told this was a Macedonian envoy addressing to the Aetolian assembly,and it was the Romans whom he labeled as foreigners and barbarians.

[Epirot]

On the contrary,Strabo says that although he considers Macedonia as part of Greece,he describes Macedonia in a separate chapter out of geographical reasons only:

"Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis."
[

Agamoi are you suggesting that Strabo described Macedon separated from Greece only for geographical reasons? But I'd like to hear your opinion after reading that:

Anciently, as at present, the Paeonians appear to have been masters of so much of what is now called Macedonia as to be able to besiege Perinthus, and subject to their power Crestonia, the whole of Mygdonia, and the territory of the Agrianes as far as Mount Pangaeus. Fragments, 41.

The country now called Macedonia was formerly called Emathia. It acquired this name from Macedon, one of its ancient princes. There was also a city Emathia near the sea. The country was occupied by some of the Epirotæ and Illyrians, but the greatest part by Bottiæi and Thracians. The Bottiæi were of Cretan origin, and came under the command of Botton; the Pieres, who were Thracians, inhabited Pieria and the parts about Olympus; the Pæonians, the borders of the river Axius, from whence the region was called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisalti, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. The Bisalti retained their name, but the Edoni went under the various names of Mygdones, Edoni, Odones and Sithones. Fragments, 11.

[osiris]

there is still much to learn about the ethnicity of the ancinet balkans and as we only have mainly greek records of that time i find it ammusing that they are quoted by some people as unbiased and totally acurate. what if the only records left in a thousand years are those of nazi german scholars how accurate would that picture of the 20th century be. ancient greeks were some of the most racist cultures of ancient times and taking their narrative at face value would be as valuable as taking mazi propaganda at face value.

[Risto the Great]

there is still much to learn about the ethnicity of the ancinet balkans and as we only have mainly greek records of that time i find it ammusing that they are quoted by some people as unbiased and totally acurate. what if the only records left in a thousand years are those of nazi german scholars how accurate would that picture of the 20th century be. ancient greeks were some of the most racist cultures of ancient times and taking their narrative at face value would be as valuable as taking nazi propaganda at face value.

Ahhh, the clarity of mind of an Egyptian God.
Welcome back.

[Soldier of Macedon]

On the contrary,Strabo says that although he considers Macedonia as part of Greece,he describes Macedonia in a separate chapter out of geographical reasons only:

"Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece, yet now, since I am following the nature and shape of the places geographically, I have decided to classify it apart from the rest of Greece and to join it with that part of Thrace which borders on it and extends as far as the mouth of the Euxine and the Propontis."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...gments*.html#9

That doesn't contradict what I have said, as Strabo clearly states Perhaps even the whole of Greece was, anciently, a settlement of barbarians, if we judge from former accounts......Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes.

It is clear that Strabo uses Greece as a geographical reference like some other writers of the early Roman period, and this is related more to the cultural interaction from the time of Phillip and Alexander rather than ethnic or historical ties; Macedonia was always a separate entity from the rest of Balkan lands under Roman rule, including Achaia. Not sure where Hellas or Greece were.

Of course you can't see how this quote works in Greek favour,because he left conveniently out the crucial point.Let's see what he omited:

"Trifling causes occasionally unite and disunite the Aetolians, Acarnanians, and Macedonians, men speaking the same language. With foreigners, with barbarians, all Greeks have, and ever will have, eternal war: because they are enemies by nature, which is always the same, and not from causes which change with the times."
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wor...Titus%20Livius

The quote that he posted does nothing for you. Period. The rest of your rabble looks more like a confused conglomeration rather than a concise explanation. Save your garbage for the likeminded, because whatever you put forth will be refuted adequately, and the Macedonian perspective will ultimately be given benefit of doubt where it concerns Macedonian history. Rather than arm-chair criticism while hopping from thread to thread like some frog, why don't you start a thread about Livy (for example), and bring forth all of the arguments you can deduce from his texts that you think work in favour of your argument. And then Macedonians can criticise your conclusions. Or is this too difficult for you? Let me know, because until now you've brought little worth to this forum, and are a tolerated annoyance more than anything else.

[Ottoman]

Nice discussion.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Livy, Book 33-32.

He was followed by a leading Aetolian, named Alexander, who was, for an Aetolian, an eloquent speaker….

An eloquent speaker - for an Aetolian. This seems to indicate that the Aetolians didn't speak Greek very well, and a reason for that is because many of them still may have been speaking their own Paleo-Balkan language at that time.

[Epirot]

An eloquent speaker - for an Aetolian. This seems to indicate that the Aetolians didn't speak Greek very well, and a reason for that is because many of them still may have been speaking their own Paleo-Balkan language at that time.

Nice remark, SoM!

It is important to note that Strabo and Dionysius of Halicarnassus thought them to be akin to Leleges (a pre-Greek people):

Strab. Book VII, 2: As for the Pelasgi, I have already discussed them.396 As for the Leleges, some conjecture that they are the same as the Carians, and others that they were only fellow-inhabitants and fellow-soldiers of these; and this, they say, is why, in the territory of Miletus, certain settlements are called settlements of the Leleges, and why, in many places of Caria, tombs of the Leleges and deserted forts, known as "Lelegian forts," are so called. However, the whole of what is now called Ionia used to be inhabited by Carians and Leleges; but the Ionians themselves expelled them and took possession of the country, although in still earlier times the captors of Troy had driven the Leleges from the region about Ida that is near Pedasus and the Satnioïs River. So then, the very fact that the Leleges made common cause with the Carians might be considered a sign that they were barbarians. And Aristotle, in his Polities, also clearly indicates that they led a wandering life, not only with the Carians, but also apart from them, and from earliest times; for instance, in the Polity of the Acarnanians he says that the Curetes held a part of the country, whereas the Leleges, and then the Teleboaea, held the westerly part; and in the Polity of the Aetolians (and likewise in that of the Opuntii and the Megarians) he calls the Locri of to‑day then and says that they took possession of Boeotia too; again, in the Polity of the Leucadians he names a certain indigenous Lelex, and also Teleboas, the son of a daughter of Lelex, and twenty-two sons of Teleboas, some of whom, he says, dwelt in Leucas.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7G*.html

Strab. 010.002.005: The Evenus River begins in the territory of those Bomians who live in the country of the Ophians, the Ophians being an Aetolian tribe (like the Eurytanians and Agraeans and Curetes and others), and flows at first, not through the Curetan country, which is the same as the Pleuronian

ὁ δ' Εὔηνος ποταμὸς ἄρχεται μὲν ἐκ Βωμιέων τῶν ἐν Ὀφιεῦσιν Αἰτωλικῷ ἔθνει καθάπερ καὶ οἱ Εὐρυτᾶνες καὶ Ἀγραῖοι καὶ Κουρῆτες καὶ ἄλλοι , ῥεῖ δ' οὐ διὰ τῆς Κουρητικῆς κατ' ἀρχάς, ἥτις ἐστὶν ἡ αὐτὴ τῇ Πλευρωνίᾳ,

Strabo did include Κουρῆτες in Αἰτωλικῷ ἔθνει!

Dionysius, Roman Antiquities , I, 17: Afterwards some of the Pelasgians who inhabited Thessaly, as it is now called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines and jointly with them made war upon the Sicels. It is possible that the Aborigines received them partly in the hope of gaining their assistance, but I believe it was chiefly on account of their kinship; 2 for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus. They were unfortunate in many ways but particularly in wandering much and in having no fixed abode. For they first lived in the neighbourhood of the Achaean Argos, as it is now called, being natives of the country, according to most accounts. They received their name originally from Pelasgus, their king. 3 Pelasgus was the son of Zeus, it is said, and of Niobę the daughter of Phoroneus, who, as the legend goes, was the first mortal woman Zeus had knowledge of. In the sixth generation afterwards, leaving the Peloponnesus, they removed to the country which was then called Haemonia and now Thessaly. The leaders of the colony were Achaeus, Phthius and Pelasgus, the sons of Larisa and Poseidon. When they arrived in Haemonia they drove out the barbarian inhabitants and divided the country into three parts, calling them, after the names of their leaders, Phthiotis, Achaia and Pelasgiotis. After they had remained there five generations, during which they attained to the greatest prosperity while enjoying the produce of the most fertile plains in Thessaly, about the sixth generation they were driven out of it by the Curetes and Leleges, who are now called Aetolians and Locrians, and by many others who lived near Parnassus, their enemies being commanded by Deucalion, the son of Prometheus and Clymenę, the daughter of Oceanus.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

The inhabitants of Elis set up colonies in Aetolia, which was previously inhabited by Curetes and the leleges:

The peoples known as the Curetes and the Leleges originally inhabited the country, but at an early period Greeks from Elis, led by the mythical eponym Aetolus, set up colonies.

Strab. 10.3.6: Concerning the Curetes still further accounts, to the following effect, are given, some of them being more closely related to the history of the Aetolians and the Acarnanians, others more remotely. More closely related are such accounts as I have given before—that the Curetes were living in the country which is now called Aetolia, and that the Aetolians came with Aetolus and drove them into Acarnania; and also accounts of this kind, that, when Pleuronia was inhabited by the Curetes and was called Curetis, Aeolians made an invasion and took it away from them, and drove out its occupants. Archemachus the Euboean [Note] says that the Curetes settled at Chalcis, but since they were continually at war for the Lelantine Plain and the enemy would catch them by the front hair and drag them down, he says, they let their hair grow long behind but cut short the part in front, and because of this they were called "Curetes," from the cut of their hair, [Note] and they then migrated to Aetolia, and, after taking possession of the region round Pleuron, called the people who lived on the far side of the Acheloüs "Acarnanians," because they kept their heads "unshorn." [Note] But some say that each of the two tribes got its name from a hero; others, that the Curetes were named after the mountain Curium, which is situated about Pleuron, and also that this is an Aetolian tribe, like the Ophians and the Agraeans and the Eurytanians and several others. But, as I have already stated, [Note] when Aetolia was divided into two parts, the region round Calydon, they say, was in the possession of Oeneus, whereas a certain part of Pleuronia was in the possession of the sons of Porthaon, that is, Agrius and his followers, if it be true that they lived in Pleuron and steep Calydon;

Strab. 10.3.1: As for the Curetes, some assign them to the Acarnanians, others to the Aetolians; and some assert that they originated in Crete, but others in Euboea; but since Homer mentions them, I should first investigate his account. It is thought that he means that they were Aetolians rather than Acarnanians, if indeed the sons of Porthaon were Agrius and Melas, and, the third, Oeneus the knight;and they lived in Pleuron and steep Calydon. Note]These are both Aetolian cities, and are referred to in the Aetolian catalogue; and therefore, since, even according to the poet, the Curetes obviously lived in Pleuron, they would be Aetolians. Those writers who oppose this view are misled by Homer's mode of expression when he says, the Curetes were fighting, and the Aetolians steadfast in battle, about the city of Calydon;

Strab. 10.3.2: Ephorus, after saying that the Aetolians were a race which had never become subject to any other people, but throughout all time of which there is any record had remained undevastated, both because of the ruggedness of their country and because of their training in warfare, says at the outset that the Curetes held possession of the whole country, but when Aetolus, [Note] the son of Endymion, arrived from Elis and overpowered them in war, the Curetes withdrew to what is now called Acarnania, whereas the Aetolians came back with Epeians and founded the earliest of the cities of Aetolia, and in the tenth generation after that Elis was settled by Oxylus [Note] the son of Haemon, who had crossed over from Aetolia. And he cites as evidence of all this two inscriptions, the one at Therma in Aetolia (where it is their ancestral custom to hold their elections of magistrates), engraved on the base of the statue of Aetolus:

Strabo's account contains many interesting pieces that may solve this puzzle:

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/citequery3.pl?dbname=GreekTexts&getid=2&query=Str.%2010.3.2