Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/victory-in-turkey-referendum-makes-erdogan-second-only-to-ataturk-1.313445

Victory in Turkey referendum makes Erdogan second only to Ataturk

This is the fourth time Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has savored victory in a national ballot. Twice he won general elections, twice in referenda. He is a perennial 'winner,' even if we in Israel are largely united in our distaste for him.

This is the fourth time Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has savored victory in a national ballot. Twice he won general elections, twice in referenda. He is a perennial "winner," even if we in Israel are largely united in our distaste for him.

Yesterday, voters overwhelmingly approved the referendum initiated by Erdogan's Islamic-oriented Justice and Development Party. The constitutional measures passed give the government wide-ranging power to exert control over the military and judiciary, both traditional bulwarks of the country's secularism.

The referendum result is a triumph for Erdogan's ideology. It's hard to imagine the heads of Turkey's army plotting another coup, given that the reforms now allow them to be tried in civilian court, or the country's high court banning certain political parties as it has in the past.

Erdogan can now look both forward and back with satisfaction. He has made his country richer, more stable and stronger in the international community, while simultaneously making it both more democratic and more devout.

Should Erdogan prevail in the July 2011 election - a legitimate prospect after yesterday's victory - he will become the longest-serving, and most influential, Turkish leader since Kemal Ataturk.

The reforms passed yesterday overturn eight decades of government-touted secular ideology, instilling instead a new political creed that could rightfully be termed Erdoganism. And a leader doesn't have an "ism" attached to his name simply by toeing his predecessors' line.

Many in Turkey and abroad view Turkey's transformation - more religious, more eastward-looking - as cause for concern. But to the majority of Turks, the reforms have made the republic more democratic, more humane.

Erdogan will remain hated by the Turkish secular elite, which is concentrated in the army, universities and business community. But he is beloved by Turkey's poorer, devout periphery. The prime minister has straightened the backbone of the marginalized, and in return has received their undying loyalty.

Fears that Erdogan will turn the country into an Iranian-style Islamic republic are unfounded. Support for the prime minister rests not only on ideology but also on modernization and the prosperity he has helped bring.

We in Israel know Erdogan primarily for his hard-line Mideast policy, less so for his economic platform. But the prime minister's every step is taken with fiscal growth in mind. Erdogan will abandon neither modernization nor democracy, the system allowing his government to stay in power.

The prime minister must now meet one major objective to justify the "ism" that has been appended to his name: Create a Kurdish state, or at least recognize Turkey's Kurds as a national minority.

Erdogan is ripe for it, but his country is not. He needs one more term to complete his Kurdish mission. Should he win next July, that may be a real possibility.

Onur, give us some feedback. Apparently most of the Kurds boycotted because they would be ignored in the new consitution, which prompted clashes between those for and against. Turkish police had to calm the violence. Why is Erdogan so (seemingly) sympathetic towards the Kurds? Is he from the east?

Is it true that some of Turkey's secular values would now be compromised, such as the selection of judges by an Islamist government, etc?

Is this good or bad for Turkey, in your view? And can Erdogan really be compared to the likes of Kemal??

[fyrOM]

Kemal Ataturk dragged Turkey from a distant past right into the 20th century. He had great vision and great capability to achieve his goals. Erdogan is just a good politician. But why the Kurdish position. Is it usa for a promise to closer steps to eu.

[Risto the Great]

Surely this is a turn away from the EU and towards the USA.
This combined with the following text makes me think so:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/turkey-losing-patience-with-eu-20100912-156te.html

Turkey losing patience with EU
Yacine Le Forestier
September 12, 2010 - 5:59PM

AFP

Exasperated Turkey slammed its fist on the table this weekend saying Europe is dragging its feet on EU entry talks, while the 27-nation bloc sought to boost ties with a nation whose worldwide weight is on the rise.

After sitting down for talks on Saturday with the 27-nation bloc's foreign affairs chiefs, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said: "I expressed our dissatisfaction with the speed of the negotiations, I expressed it clearly."

His expression of irritation, moreover, came on the eve of a referendum on highly-divisive constitutional changes that the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) says will strengthen Turkey's bid for admission into the EU.

[fyrOM]

You could be right RTG. The usa divide and conquer to hold the east including Turkey.

[Onur]

You know, Erdogan wanted to change the law which prevents using hijab in universities but supreme court didn't allow it because it was against the secular constitution of Turkey and after that, a prosecutor started a trial against his party for involving anti-secular actions. After these events, he wanted to change the structure of Turkey`s supreme court and he started a referendum campaign for that.

I`ve voted NO yesterday because i don't support their ideology. Turkey is totally divided on this. All the people in Aegean section and Marmara except Istanbul(it was %54 YES in there) voted NO for a change to the structure of supreme court but most of eastern and central Anatolia voted YES. The result was, %57 YES, %43 NO. Now our supreme court`s structure will change and it will be very difficult for them to abolish any new law which has been set by the ruling political party.


Actually, i know that Turkey is the most extreme secular country in the world where you cannot use any religious object in schools, universities and such. These are allowed in all EU, USA where it`s considered as human rights. Our secular rules has been set by Ataturk himself and it didn't change a bit since 1924. In my opinion(and this is the opinion of all the 16 million people, %43 who voted NO in the referendum) Turkey needs to be as secular as this because think about your concerns of Wahabbi movement among your Albanian minority. Turkey is a country with %96 muslim population and trust me, all the middle-eastern muslims and the ones in Balkans too trying to pull Turkey into their shithole as an ally on their side. The stupid flotilla to Gazza was the proof for that. Wahabbis and all other extremists spends millions of dollars here trying to influence our people. I trust my people but i don't trust these filthy so-called muslim extremists.

Nothing has been change yet in Turkey but it would be very difficult for supreme court to prevent any other anti-secular actions of Erdogan from now on.


Btw, Israeli Haaretz`s opinion is pure bullshit. An idiot like Erdogan cant be compared with Ataturk. Turkey`s economical development is a result of natural process and it`s not related with the stupid Erdogan. Also this %57 YES vote wasn't for only Erdogan cuz several other parties supported this constitution change as well. Separatist Kurds rejoice this supreme court changes too cuz they were thinking that the supreme court was the biggest obstacle against them but Erdogan cannot support these separatists even if he wants to cuz Turkey`s public doesn't let him to do so. Erdogan himself is from Blacksea. He is not a Kurd but he always tried to be extremely nice to them in the name of gaining their support and he is partly successful in this cuz Kurds support him too but creating a Kurdish state is just a wish of Haaretz`s Israeli author.

I am still optimistic tough cuz the latest polls still shows that Erdogan wont be selected again in the next year`s election. He gone berserk because of this and he is doing whatever he can to gain some popularity among rural people `till the elections of may 2011.

[freifrau]

A Turkish friend of mine who had studied law (she has her Praxis as a lawyer at the moment) and comes from Izmir told me that this a huge step backwards for Turkey- meaning that Turkey moved decisively towards Islam.

[Prolet]

Onur, This could e seen as a victory for Erdogan, lets not forget that he and Abdullah Gul are also pretty close.

I think it also had something to do with the EU, as this was ment to be an EU reform.

[Onur]

A Turkish friend of mine who had studied law (she has her Praxis as a lawyer at the moment) and comes from Izmir told me that this a huge step backwards for Turkey- meaning that Turkey moved decisively towards Islam.

Well, some NO voters thinks like that but i am not that pessimistic. Our 80 years old supreme court system was some kind of insurance for secular Turkey because any opposition party in the parliament could bring any new law changes to it and supreme court was analyzing it if it`s suitable to our secular republic system or not.

Our supreme court stays but Erdogan changed it`s structure. Before the change, the vote of more than half of 9 judges was enough to cancel the law but with the new changes now it will require 13 of 17 judge`s vote.

Some people are in panic like "Omg, now islamists will be able to change our secular system" but still, %43 of people voted NO to this. We are not that small minority here. Erdogan`s party still leading the votes by a small margin but he don't have the formerly big support anymore. He probably wont be a single leading party after next election.

I think it also had something to do with the EU, as this was ment to be an EU reform.

Current constitution change has no relation whatsoever with the EU but EU members supports Erdogan as always because all of secular parties in Turkey strongly objects European Union for a long time. They are the main anti-EU block. Thats why EU officers always supports Erdogan`s party even if Erdogan doesn't support EU that much but nevertheless, he is not that anti-EU as secularists.

[Onur]

Surely this is a turn away from the EU and towards the USA.
This combined with the following text makes me think so:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...912-156te.html

There are 100s of articles getting published all over the world for like months. Here is the latest one from British foreign secretary and the Finnish minister for foreign affairs;

Turkey can be a boon in Brussels

When European Union foreign ministers meet in Brussels this weekend, we will both be calling for our counterparts to recognise Turkey’s increasing role and influence on the world stage. The UK and Finland support Turkey’s goal of becoming a member of the EU. But its accession process is moving slowly. We believe the EU should not wait until Turkey joins to benefit from the strength of its relationships. But only by having a seat at the table will Turkey be able to contribute fully to the security and prosperity of the EU’s member states.

In the western Balkans and the Middle East, Turkey is already an important force and an influential actor with considerable “soft power”. It is important both politically and economically in Iraq, and in working with the EU to persuade Iran to meet international concerns on its nuclear programme. Elsewhere, Turkey is a crucial partner in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In short, the potential of combined efforts between the EU and Turkey is great.

Economically, as well as in foreign policy, Turkish membership of the EU is in our mutual interest as we trade and invest our way out of the global economic crisis. A member of the Group of 20 leading nations, Turkey has a rapidly growing economy which is expected to expand by more than 5 per cent this year, compared with the eurozone average of only 1 per cent.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development predicts Turkey will be the second-largest economy in Europe by 2050. Turkish entrepreneurs in Europe already run €40bn ($51bn) worth of businesses, and employ 500,000 people. A Turkish economy in the EU would create new opportunities for exporters and investors, and link us to markets and energy sources in central Asia and the near east.

The economic and security case for Turkish membership of the EU is therefore stronger than ever. The strategic and economic benefits for Turkey itself will be profound and far-reaching. Improving business practices, border security, access to education and social equality are all goals worth striving for.

That said, if we are all to reap those benefits, Turkey needs to do more to reinvigorate its accession process as it heads towards a review of its progress this autumn. We want to see movement on important areas of fundamental human rights. Economic reform must continue, and EU single market rules must be implemented. We encourage Turkey to pursue reforms to enable the opening of the competition chapter, one of the criteria against which their membership will be judged, as soon as possible.

Turkey remains committed to supporting efforts to find a solution to the continued problem of Cyprus. We need to turn this goal into reality, so that the 36-year division of the island can be brought to an end. It needs leaders on both sides in Cyprus to continue to show statesmanship and courage in taking needed steps. But the reward will be great: a settlement will bring enormous economic and security benefits not only to everyone on the island, but also to Turkey, the rest of the EU and the whole eastern Mediterranean region.

The EU cannot stand still to the changing world. The shutters cannot now be brought down on potential new members. Our recent experiences of accession have shown that enlargement can be a powerful catalyst for change, and can bring mutual benefits to the candidate country as well as to the EU as a whole. The Union has grown from six to 27. Existing member states have adapted and adjusted to the changes the new members have brought about. New member states have similarly adapted and adjusted to the norms and values of the EU.

Arguments used both by proponents and opponents of Turkey’s EU membership are the same: Turkey is a geopolitically significant multicultural country with a vast population and a growing economy. But these should be seen as an opportunity, not as a threat, and the negotiation process between the EU and Turkey should now pick up speed. And while Turkey makes progress towards meeting EU standards on the road to membership, the EU must strengthen economic, security and cultural ties with Turkey too. The EU will be stronger with Turkey as a member. Together we will be more than the sum of our parts.

The writers are the British foreign secretary and the Finnish minister for foreign affairs

September 8 2010


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0cc72202-b...44feab49a.html

BUT, EU is DEFINITELY over for Turkey. Already all the opposition parties to Erdogan strongly objects to the EU and Erdogan is not that fancy either. He is just quieter than the rest just because he is ruling in Turkey now.

Latest EU official Euro-barometer polls last month showed that %73 of Turkey are against joining EU and for northern Cyprus, it`s even bigger, %78 of the Turkish Cypriots are against EU(supposedly the Cyprus is a EU member for 7 years and only the Greeks ruling it, ROFL!!!)

EU officials are in panic because Turkey is about to leave their doorway outside for the first time ever in 45 years and because Turkey without the chain-locks of EU is their biggest nightmare and they would like to keep us at the doorway for 45 years more. Most people in Turkey knows that EU is aging old lady and she will die soon. This is also the opinion of most think-tank groups in USA too since no one there talks about EU in the forecasts about the future of the world.

[Risto the Great]

The USA will be ecstatic with this change in events. A less secular country is actually in their interests in my opinion. Turkey has pushed itself away from the EU in a way that pushes it to a make or break partnership with either the more fundamental Muslim countries or else the ole mighty USA. This is bad for Turkey and I think the EU has a great deal to answer in relation to this.

There is no doubt the country needed to reform its constitution (given the nature of its reason for changing last time), but this is all wrong. Ataturk would be rolling in his grave.

[Onur]

The USA will be ecstatic with this change in events. A less secular country is actually in their interests in my opinion. Turkey has pushed itself away from the EU in a way that pushes it to a make or break partnership with either the more fundamental Muslim countries or else the ole mighty USA. This is bad for Turkey and I think the EU has a great deal to answer in relation to this.

There is no doubt the country needed to reform its constitution (given the nature of its reason for changing last time), but this is all wrong. Ataturk would be rolling in his grave.

Yes, you are right. USA prefers Turkey to be less secular since all the pro-secular people in Turkey are anti-USA and anti-EU for a long time and historically, USA likes the stupid islamic states like Arabs in middle-east cuz it`s easy to have an influence upon them. Thats why both USA and EU supports Erdogan instead of other political movements here but at the same time, they are highly concerned about Turkey`s political moves to step away from the stupid EU;

Gates accuses EU of pushing Turkey away from West

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates on Wednesday expressed concern at Turkey's damaged relations with Israel and blamed the European Union for helping to push Ankara away from the West, by refusing to promptly accept Ankara as a member. His comments reflected growing dismay in Washington over Turkey's shifting foreign policy and unraveling relations with Israel, with Ankara no longer reliably backing US diplomacy.

"The deterioration in the relationship between Turkey and Israel over the past year or so is a matter of concern," Gates told reporters in London. He said that "if there is anything to the notion that Turkey is, if you will, moving eastward, it is my view in no small part because it was pushed and pushed by some in Europe, refusing to give Turkey the kind of organic link to the West that Turkey sought".

Turkey has been frustrated at the glacial pace of negotiations to join the European Union.

"I think we have to think long and hard about why" policies have changed in Turkey and "about what we might be able to do to counter them and make the stronger linkages with the West more apparently of interest and value to Turkey's leaders," said Gates.

09 June 2010

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/is...aza-turkey.53u

Europe risks running out of time with Turkey relations

Ever since the change in government from Jacques Chirac to Nicolas Sarkozy in France and from Gerhard Schroeder to Angela Merkel in Germany, Turkey has been strung along and put off by the European Union. Indeed, in the case of Cyprus, the EU wasn't even above breaking previous commitments vis-Ea-vis Turkey and unilaterally changing jointly-agreed rules. And, while the Europeans have formally kept to their decision to begin accession negotiations with Turkey, they have done little to advance the cause.

Only now, when the disaster in Turkish-European relations is becoming apparent, is the EU suddenly willing to open a new chapter in the negotiations (which, incidentally, clearly proves that the deadlock was politically motivated).

It can't be said often enough: Turkey is situated in a highly sensitive geopolitical location, particularly where Europe's security is concerned. The eastern Mediterranean, the Aegean, the western Balkans, the Caspian region and the southern Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Middle East are all areas where the West will achieve nothing or very little without Turkey's support. And this is true in terms not only of security policy, but also of energy policy if you're looking for alternatives to Europe's growing reliance on Russian energy supplies.

The West, Europe in particular, really can't afford to alienate Turkey, considering their interests, but objectively it is exactly this kind of estrangement that follows from European policy towards Turkey in the last few years. Europe's security in the 21st century will be determined to a significant degree in its neighborhood in the southeast -- exactly where Turkey is crucial for Europe's security interests now and, increasingly, in the future. But, rather than binding Turkey as closely as possible to Europe and the West, European policy is driving Turkey into the arms of Russia and Iran.

This kind of policy is ironic, absurd, and shortsighted all at once. For centuries, Russia, Iran, and Turkey have been rivals, never allies. Europe's political blindness, however, seems to override this fact.


Moreover, with the confrontation between Israel and Turkey strengthening radical forces in the Middle East, what is European diplomacy (both in Brussels and in European capitals) waiting for? Europe risks running out of time, even in its own neighborhood, because active European foreign policy and a strong commitment on the part of the EU are sorely missed in all these countries. Or, as Mikhail Gorbachev, that great Russian statesman of the last decades of the 20th century, put it: "Life has a way of punishing those who come too late."

Joschka Fischer , Germany's foreign minister and vice chancellor vice chancellor from 1998 to 2005

July 06, 2010

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Europe...ns-a0230731883

I, as well as the majority of people in turkey, do not support EU for a very long time. We don't trust USA either. I believe Turkey can be pretty strong actor here without EU and USA. We don't need neither of them anymore. I believe Turkey is enough of it`s own already and if this economical crisis continues in EU, Turkey can be rival to the aging old EU as it`s own. I believe that when this happens, then EU will have to offer Turkey to be a member of their stupid club. Already the IMF`s forecasts says that Turkey will be 2nd biggest economy in EU after Germany in two decades. This is inevitable fact, because EU is aging and she is in crisis atm but Turkey is growing bigger with her young population and highly educated 10 million+ people.

I am also confident and optimistic about my people cuz still %43 of people here voted NO to constitution change and most of these people are highly educated ones. Mostly the rural people voted YES but i am sure that we will be able to convince these people too and open their eyes against the possible islamic threats and the aims of USA upon us and to our neighbor states.

[freifrau]

The USA will be ecstatic with this change in events. A less secular country is actually in their interests in my opinion. T

Why do you say so ?

I am not sure that USA wants really an islamic fundamental Turkey.


--
For me the situation is really confusing...
the Islamists want EU and the secular parties not? This is really weird.

[Risto the Great]

Why do you say so ?

I am not sure that USA wants really an islamic fundamental Turkey

Quite simply, historically the USA has had far more influence on Islamic fundamental states than it has had with secular states. As strange as it sounds.

[freifrau]

Quite simply, historically the USA has had far more influence on Islamic fundamental states than it has had with secular states. As strange as it sounds.

Surely ...real stable democracies are not so easy to manipulate as totalitarian regiments,theocratic states or military dictatorships.

On the other hand i am not sure either that Turkey is now a western-type republic.
The military involvement was and is so powerful- in order to keep Islam's role away.

[Onur]

Why do you say so ?

I am not sure that USA wants really an islamic fundamental Turkey.

Quite simple to answer. USA prefers stupid islamic states like Arabs cuz in those states people are getting feed by religious dogmas 24/7 and they dont have any right to object anything in their own states. On the other hand, their rulers lives in ridicules richness with 40 women in their harems, golden toilets to shit on and cocaine parties all day long while USA sucks all their oil dry.

Why bother convincing millions of people in a democratic state to act according to the aims of USA while you can turn this state to some kind of monarchy and only convince the few puppet rulers in it????

This is what i am talking about. This is the people whom adored by US politicians;

YouTube - Ovako se narucuje pesma.wmv

For me the situation is really confusing...
the Islamists want EU and the secular parties not? This is really weird.

The islamists actually doesn't want EU either but they are too hesitant to destroy 50 years of EU-Turkey relations. I can show you 10s of videos and statements of Erdogan 10 years ago while he mentions about EU as a christian only club, worthless union etc.

Pro-seculars in Turkey strictly advocates Ataturk`s creation of Turkish nation without sharing the power with someone else like EU or USA since we are pretty well aware that this nation has been formed against the will of western powers with fighting vs 6-7 of them at the same time between 1914 to 1922. Also, in current situation with EU, the countries like Cyprus, Bulgaria, Greece keeps talking against us and trying to negotiate with us by using their EU membership as blackmailing against us. We think that this is a disgrace for Turkey to be put in a situation like this and the negotiations should have been ended already only because of this reason.

On the other hand i am not sure either that Turkey is now a western-type republic.
The military involvement was and is so powerful- in order to keep Islam's role away.

Yes, Turkey has her own way of democracy and republic and we are happy with it and we never wanna be some kind of western-type. So, Mr. Sarkozy was right, Turkey is not a European country in their western European ideology. IMO, Turkey is both European and Asian country at the same time, exactly like her geographical position in the world and we prefer her to stay with this way.

There was military involvement in Turkey in 1980 for the last time but never like a dictatorship way and this is mostly exaggerated by the EU. Yes, Turkish people highly respects their army, much more then the EU people. Maybe it`s because of our history but the situation here was never that severe as it`s represented by EU officials.