Kosovo: News, Politics & Issues

[Soldier of Macedon]

Mastika, what are your thoughts with regard to the Macedonian census next year? Do you think there will be a more honest picture of Macedonia's population?

[Mastika]

Mastika, what are your thoughts with regard to the Macedonian census next year? Do you think there will be a more honest picture of Macedonia's population?

I sincerely want the census to be better and more accurate. However people are still going to try, through illegal methods, to increase the number of people "living" in their household. I have identified two critical issues which need to be adressed for the census to be worth conducting;

1. Many Macedonian Muslims will still be writing themselves down as ethnically Albanian/Turkish. The government really hasn't done much to sway them to identify as ethnic Macedonian Muslims, whereas preassure from religious groups and the opportunities presented to them as "Turks" or "Albanians" (seeing as minority groups are getting special treatment, left, right and centre) is what is swaying them to write down that they are in fact Albanian.

More needs to be done to get these people to identify as Macedonians, I have noticed that some Macedonian Muslims now believe themselves to be a seperate ethnic (similar to Bosniaks), and this is disturbing. It is a failure by the government to adress this problem. I believe that it is because they are Muslim and not Orthodox that little action has been taken, however that is my opinion you may agree/disagree.

2. Many Albanians and Macedonian Muslims will still be writing down their relatives who are living in Switzerland/Italy/Germany as residing in Macedonia. Given the recent boom in emigration from these groups, no doubt it WILL happen, probably more so then in 2002. The period 2002-2008 saw an increase of 55,000 Macedonian citizens living in Italy alone, primarily Macedonian Muslims and Albanians. One would expect a stabilisation/lesser increase of the population in many villages/towns which were targeted for emigration across Western Macdonia. Those living in Macedonia need to write ONLY those people who are in Macedonia at the time of the count, not relatives living in Italy. The counting of dead relatives will also be a problem.

Having said that, I am confident that if managed properly the census will be accurate. I believe that the Albanian population will stabilise/increase marginally (the rate of increase should be lower then the period 1994-2002), given the mass emigration since 2002. I do not expect it to hit 600,000 as some people have been claiming, I would seriously dispute the accuracy of the census if that happened. The Macedonian Muslim population, will probably increase however people need to identify as such. If all of the Macedonian Muslim population identified as such, then the number of Turks will probably halve in number. The Aromanians will probably reach over 10,000 for the first time 'officially' (the true number is higher), whilst Serbs will probably decrease and Romani will increase. If conducted properly the number of Macedonians should increase to between 1,300,000-1,400,000. Again, the fluctuation would depend on the number of Macedonians Muslims writing "Macedonian". Sadly, I think the number of "Bulgarians" will hit 5,000 as some sell-outs will do anything for a visa.

We cannot have what happened in Velesta (people voting numerous times) have happen with the census.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, would that mean that every individual should be afforded the same right, irrespective of where they are and of their situation? Where and how is the line drawn?

SoM, 'drawing the line' is the problem. You either afford everyone the right to self-government or no one. Anything else is just hypocritical and contradictory. I don't see a need to argue against self-government. No one outside of Macedonia will agree with that argument, it undermines our own claims to self-government and the argument itself will not convince Albanians to re-evaluate their actions.

However, I do see the need to point out that Macedonians have a natural right to self-defence and this is a right that no one can deny us. This is also where the real test of our determination and ability will present itself - two competing nationalisms and two competing natural rights decided through the barrel of a gun.

Of course, I would like to see the situation resolved peacefully and my opinion on that has been made public many times. In my view, we could avoid war if, and only if, the Albanians agree to integrate into the Macedonian state on the basis of individual rights and responsibilities, and equality before the law regardless of nationality, religion, gender etc.

[Prolet]

Excellent Analysis Mastika

We had dead people voting, in Struga Ramiz Merku got over 4000 votes from people who were not even living in Macedonia.

What i want to know is how is Kosovo 2.2 Million people? Its bigger then Macedonia by 100,000 people but where are all these people?? Pristina is a city of 200,000 for starters while the other cities do not make 50,000 at most. The reality is that Kosovo is no more then 1 million, we've seen so many lies and over exaggerated figures its not fooling anyone.

Gjorgjija Kastriot Skenderbeg being Albanian, Mother Teresa being Albanian hell i've even heard Albanians saying that Pitu Guli was Albanian im not sure which story is funnier. The key issue here is the Vlachs, Albania is a Vlach strong hold and so many Vlachs live there. What im gobsmacked about is when i read so many Vlachs being converted to Albanians.

Gjorgjija Kastriot Skenderbeg is a Macedonian Mijak however the rest are Vlachs this is why its becoming embarrassing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I sincerely want the census to be better and more accurate. However people are still going to try, through illegal methods, to increase the number of people "living" in their household. I have identified two critical issues which need to be adressed for the census to be worth conducting;

1. Many Macedonian Muslims will still be writing themselves down as ethnically Albanian/Turkish. The government really hasn't done much to sway them to identify as ethnic Macedonian Muslims, whereas preassure from religious groups and the opportunities presented to them as "Turks" or "Albanians" (seeing as minority groups are getting special treatment, left, right and centre) is what is swaying them to write down that they are in fact Albanian.

More needs to be done to get these people to identify as Macedonians, I have noticed that some Macedonian Muslims now believe themselves to be a seperate ethnic (similar to Bosniaks), and this is disturbing. It is a failure by the government to adress this problem. I believe that it is because they are Muslim and not Orthodox that little action has been taken, however that is my opinion you may agree/disagree.

2. Many Albanians and Macedonian Muslims will still be writing down their relatives who are living in Switzerland/Italy/Germany as residing in Macedonia. Given the recent boom in emigration from these groups, no doubt it WILL happen, probably more so then in 2002. The period 2002-2008 saw an increase of 55,000 Macedonian citizens living in Italy alone, primarily Macedonian Muslims and Albanians. One would expect a stabilisation/lesser increase of the population in many villages/towns which were targeted for emigration across Western Macdonia. Those living in Macedonia need to write ONLY those people who are in Macedonia at the time of the count, not relatives living in Italy. The counting of dead relatives will also be a problem.

Having said that, I am confident that if managed properly the census will be accurate. I believe that the Albanian population will stabilise/increase marginally (the rate of increase should be lower then the period 1994-2002), given the mass emigration since 2002. I do not expect it to hit 600,000 as some people have been claiming, I would seriously dispute the accuracy of the census if that happened. The Macedonian Muslim population, will probably increase however people need to identify as such. If all of the Macedonian Muslim population identified as such, then the number of Turks will probably halve in number. The Aromanians will probably reach over 10,000 for the first time 'officially' (the true number is higher), whilst Serbs will probably decrease and Romani will increase. If conducted properly the number of Macedonians should increase to between 1,300,000-1,400,000. Again, the fluctuation would depend on the number of Macedonians Muslims writing "Macedonian". Sadly, I think the number of "Bulgarians" will hit 5,000 as some sell-outs will do anything for a visa.

We cannot have what happened in Velesta (people voting numerous times) have happen with the census.

Looks like a generally well balanced opinion, you make some good points Mastika. I am not too concerned with the plastic Bulgars as much as the plastic Albanians though. What should the Macedonian government be doing, that they aren't at the moment, to improve the situation? How can we bring the Macedonians who are Muslims closer?

How are the figures rigged by these ethnic Albanians in Macedonia? Does it take place in the presence of international observers? Is it that easy to submit multiple and fictitious identities? Or does the problem also rest with the corrupt local authorities responsible for delivering the official data? If so, what do you propose as reasonable solutions to these problems?

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, 'drawing the line' is the problem. You either afford everyone the right to self-government or no one. Anything else is just hypocritical and contradictory.

However, I do see the need to point out that Macedonians have a natural right to self-defence and this is a right that no one can deny us.

I agree that Macedonians have the right to both self-defend and self-promote (as do others) no matter where they are, as adequate minority rights are essential for all modern states, so long as it is within reason and in consideration of logic, context, and a number of other factors. However, in Macedonia, the Macedonians should have the right to defend and promote integral elements of their nation through self-rule on a particular level, because it is their historical homeland, and furthermore, the nation-state of the Macedonian people. The Albanians have this right in Albania (not that I agree with their views regarding their own origins, but it is 'their' nation-state) as do the Spanish in Spain, the Germans in Germany, etc. For these countries, this constitutes a fair principle and can be considered a 'line' which is not hypocrital, unfortunately, it is a line all too often crossed by ethnic Albanians in Macedonia, at times through hostile means. The situation differs when a certain people live in an area which is an occupied part of the homeland, like the Macedonians in the Greek state, but the same does not apply with the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia.

This is also where the real test of our determination and ability will present itself - two competing nationalisms and two competing natural rights decided through the barrel of a gun.

The world is indeed a field for cultural competition among the nations, Delchev couldn't have said it better, hopefully it doesn't result in another confict between Macedonians and ethnic Albanians in Macedonia. A line must be drawn in this case.

Of course, I would like to see the situation resolved peacefully and my opinion on that has been made public many times. In my view, we could avoid war if, and only if, the Albanians agree to integrate into the Macedonian state on the basis of individual rights and responsibilities, and equality before the law regardless of nationality, religion, gender etc.

I agree completely.

[Epirot]

Excellent Analysis Mastika

We had dead people voting, in Struga Ramiz Merku got over 4000 votes from people who were not even living in Macedonia.

What i want to know is how is Kosovo 2.2 Million people? Its bigger then Macedonia by 100,000 people but where are all these people?? Pristina is a city of 200,000 for starters while the other cities do not make 50,000 at most. The reality is that Kosovo is no more then 1 million, we've seen so many lies and over exaggerated figures its not fooling anyone.

Gjorgjija Kastriot Skenderbeg being Albanian, Mother Teresa being Albanian hell i've even heard Albanians saying that Pitu Guli was Albanian im not sure which story is funnier. The key issue here is the Vlachs, Albania is a Vlach strong hold and so many Vlachs live there. What im gobsmacked about is when i read so many Vlachs being converted to Albanians.

Gjorgjija Kastriot Skenderbeg is a Macedonian Mijak however the rest are Vlachs this is why its becoming embarrassing.

You have mistaken in all points...
In 1981 census (in Yugoslav period) were more than 2.2 milion residents inside Kosova. Now how the hell come that in 2010 are less than 1 milion people in Kosova?
Let me welcome you to some recent estimations:

Kosovo’s population estimates range from 1.9 to 2.4 million. The last two population census conducted in 1981 and 1991 estimated Kosovo’s population at 1.6 and 1.9 million respectively, but the 1991 census probably undercounted Albanians. The latest estimate in 2001 by OSCE puts the number at 2.4 Million.

The population density is close to 200 per square kilometer, one of the highest in Europe.

The majority of the population is composed of ethnic Albanians while the largest minority is Serbian. Other ethnic groups include Bosnians, Turks and Roma and constitute a small fraction of the population

http://enrin.grida.no/htmls/kosovo/SoE/popullat.htm

I lost some data (in my PC bookmark) made by OSBE mechanisms that estimated Kosova's population as over 2.800.000, according which more than 96% were Albanians.

Only Prishtina has over 600.000 inhabitants:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/europe/kosovo/

While OSBE consider that Prishtina has 500.000:

OSCE municipal profile of PristinaPDF, April 2008. Retrieved on 20 June 2008.

Whilst, I do not know who Albanian claim that Pitu Guli was Albanian!

about Scanderbeg being of Mijak descent I present my opinion at the specific thread.

[Mastika]

Looks like a generally well balanced opinion, you make some good points Mastika. I am not too concerned with the plastic Bulgars as much as the plastic Albanians though. What should the Macedonian government be doing, that they aren't at the moment, to improve the situation? How can we bring the Macedonians who are Muslims closer?

Well I think that Macedonian nationalism needs to become more secularised. We always associated being Macedonian with being Orthodox, this is just the way we think. The Albanians have been smart in this respect for example and have come together regardless of whether or not they are Catholic, Orthodox or Muslims. Not enough is being done to ensure that these people 'feel' Macedonia, this is partly due to the government and partly due to the rest of the Macedonian people. I'm not blaming anyone and I do think that things are progressing in a positive direction.

For example, imagine if either major party (vmro or sdsm) was to recruit Fijat Canoski to join them, many people would then stop voting for PEI or the Albanian parties and possibly vote for VMRO or SDSM. In Plasnia for example 20+% of the vote in 2006 went to Albanian parties, why?, this opstina has no Albanians living in it. It would be a win-win situation for them.

Ending Albanian and Turkish language schools in non-Albanian and non-Turkish areas is also another, albeit more extreme, measure to counter the spread of assimilation. Why should there be an Albanian school in Labunista? Why was Ramiz Merko allowed to have one set up?

I think that there needs to be greater dialogue between Orthodox Macedonians and Muslim Macedonians, both by NGO's and by people on the street.

How are the figures rigged by these ethnic Albanians in Macedonia? Does it take place in the presence of international observers? Is it that easy to submit multiple and fictitious identities? Or does the problem also rest with the corrupt local authorities responsible for delivering the official data? If so, what do you propose as reasonable solutions to these problems?

The system is easily cheated when nobody is interested in playing fair. You may/may not have read the notes from the "International census observation mission - ICOM" [http://www.delmkd.ec.europa.eu/en/wh...sus_2002.htm#]. What is written is very disturbing.

Some examples of this include "The enumeration of persons staying abroad is uncertain. A number of those counted as having been abroad for less than 12 months, may have been staying for a longer time outside the country. There are also some indications that persons living abroad have been enumerated as living in the country. All of this may have led to some overcount of the total population." This is shocking!, but nothing new. How can people take it (the census) seriously when flaws such as this were allowed to happen.

As for the corrupt officials, they are too widespread. Many opstini in 2002 comprised of purely Albanian villages, the local officials would thus have all been Albanian, who knows what shonky counting was going on.

The census will only be successful this time round if people have respect for the laws of the Republicof Macedonia and obey protocol. The government can only do so much, the people need to step up and take responsibility. Those in positions of authority need to fair and honest too, it will not work otherwise.

[Uskana]

The ethnic Albanians living in Macedonia are living in the Macedonian fatherland. They deserve rights, they also must know Macedonian. The ethnic Albanians in Macedonia who only know Albanian and Serbian probably came from Kosovo. Do you deny this?

If you're still coming to this conclusion after what I just told you then I don't know what to say. But I'll play along and say sure. Keep believing that Kosovar Albanians migrated to Macedonia. Serbs claim they migrated from Albania to Kosovo, then the Macedonians claim they migrated from Kosova to Macedonia, whats next, they migrate back to Albania to finish the cycle?



Like I've been trying to tell you throughout the threads, most Albanians were trying to leave Macedonia. Thank the Turkification process in the 50's and the lax visas that were given to Albanians during the YU times. I guess the Kosovars are the dumb ones that are trying to stay in Macedonia.

Not a good explanation of why Canada, Bosnia, Switzerland etc are good examples. In fact really very light. None of these countries carry the torch for the fatherland like Macedonia does. To use your colourful language, your example is dumb.

The torch of the fatherland? Puhleez. Those countries are part of a federal government, as will Macedonia be in the future.

Is that it? I was hoping you would delve into the Badinter model and justify its applications arising from the terrorist led war of 2001. What is the percentage of the population where Macedonians can treat ethnic Albanians like shit? At (a debatable) 25%, Macedonia should award every ethnic Albanian about 2 votes for every 1 Macedonian vote. If it was say 2% we could have them all hung or something? You see? I know the wording is stupid and I harbour no secret desire to treat ethnic Albanians like shit or hang them. But I also have no desire to award them some mongrel type of reverse discrimination either. Irrespective of any percentage. Just in case your maths is challenged, even 25% is a minority. If it was say 11%, would your opinions change?

I will say I'm not too familiar with the Badinter model or the 2 votes for every 1 vote. But I believe Albanian should be an official language in Macedonia, we should have Albanian universities in Macedonia and have equal representation in the bureaucratic system.

[Uskana]

So what if Macedonian and Serbian can be understood, we can understand Russian,Polish,Czech,Slovak,Slovenian too just like Italians,Spanish,Vlachs can understand eachother and some of their words are exactly the same thing. Lets not forget that the Roman Empire ruled most of the world for 1000 years so we have many Latin words in our language. Just like we have many Turkish words that we use today in our language.

The fact of the matter is that Macedonians in Albania speak perfect Albanian, you wouldnt know they were Macedonian if you spoke to them, the Macedonians in Greece speak perfect Greek where as the Albanians in Macedonia you can smell them from a mile away and know that they are foreigners and most of the time they are since many came from Kosovo and still cant speak our language properly.

I know Albanians who speak perfect Macedonian, the Turks in Macedonia are also very good. The real Albanians in Macedonia are good citizens who want to live in peace and harmony where as the Kosovars are those who are spreading all the hatred in our country these people lived in mountains and they never integrated with anybody, they are nothing more then a Ghetto group.

Kosovars still? The Albanians in Macedonia have always yearned for unification with Albania or their own separate state. Don't blame all the Kosovars, it is the Albanian mentality in general.

[Uskana]

A very incorrect statement. You will find that Albanians form roughly 20% not over 25%. There are many places where people are declaring themselves as Albanians when they are simply not. In the Struga region for example in Labunista there are 4,288 "Albanians", in Boroec 74, in Podgorci 573 and in Oktisi 346. By simply looking at the official census you would assume that there was in total there were 5,281 Albanians, however they are all in fact Macedonian muslims. Those villages are Macedonian Muslim/Christian villages.

The same is happening over in Studenicani, there are 3217 "Albanians" in Batinci village, even though this is a Macedonian Muslims/Bosniak village. Even in Baciste village which you presented, where there are officially 766 "Albanians" even though the majority of the population are Macedonian Muslims.

I have just pointed out 10,000 Albanians which simply do not exist. This is a widescale phenomenon across Macedonia, which questions the validity of official statistical counts. About half of the Turks in Macedonia are actually Macedonian Muslims, writing themselves down as Turks. Seeing as I cannot apply the same logic to the cities, I am not able to give figures for more pseudo-Albanians, but imagine how many of the "Albanians" in Debar, Tetovo, Struga and Skopje are fresh arrivals from the aforementioned villages.

Another issue is the 'counting' od deceased and overseas relatives. For example officially 5834 people live in Velesta, however this year they were having trouble finding enough students to start a class for year one. Any village with a population that great would have enough for a number of classes. Who knows what the true population of these villages really is? In the Struga region 'officially' you have large villages which are 100% Albanian such as Radolista, Frangovo and Delagozda, Korosista but really how many of these people exist? Who is overseas? Who is dead? These numbers are highly inflated. We have already caught the Albanians from Velesta voting twice in elections, clearly showing that

In Tetovo it is even more extreme where there are a number of villages with populations over 5,000 people (Bogovine, Dobri Dol, Kamenjane, Recica, Cegrane, Celope). Do all of these people really exist? Statisticians don't know who is overseas/dead, and rely on people to be honest. Without honest statistical counts there can be no honest cooperation between the two groups.

Our people have given Albanians so many rights and freedoms already, even though we know that most of them aren't interested in the wellbeing of Macedonia or the Macedonian people. Imagine if Albanians began to show genuined desire for Macedonia and for the Macedonian people. Just think about how much more the country would progress. It needs to start with people like you who come here questioning who is really macedonian and what clothes we wear etc. What Albanians don't understand is that of all their neighbours WE are the least extreme and most interested in the rights of Minorities.

It is true there has been a mass migration in the recent years. The Albanians that were loading up in buses trying to emigrate to Belgium a few months ago is an example of this issue. Depopulation of the Albanian people is nothing new.

[Mastika]

It is true there has been a mass migration in the recent years. The Albanians that were loading up in buses trying to emigrate to Belgium a few months ago is an example of this issue. Depopulation of the Albanian people is nothing new.

You have misunderstood the bulk of my post.

[julie]

Uskana, you state that Albanians in Macedonia should have Albanian universities in Macedonia.
'You also state they should have equal representation in the bureaucratic system.
You also state in another post that Albanians in Macedonia should not be compulsory to speak Macedonian for them

In Australia, a country that is multicultural and diverse in languages, nationalities and different cultures it is COMPULSORY everyone communicate in the English language.
All schooling is COMPULSORY in the English language.
UNIVERSITIES communicate in English.

Migrants have emigrated to this country and can read and write and speak the national language which is English. The proportion of Anglo-Saxon migrants here in comparison to over 200 different migrant groups is not that large.

Australia affords all migrants the right to go to their own church services, to worship in whatever they choose, and also affords migrants the right to maintain their culture within the parameters of what is socially and legally acceptable by this countrys rules.

They allow migrants to hold language classes separately for migrants and their offspring.

Albanians in Macedonia have no right to demand what it is you are asking.

The Macedonians in Albania ? What about them? why cant they have the same demands you are making on Macedonia? And dont spout statistics and numbers . Because we all know that its bullshit how many Albanians are residing in RoM!
Most of them are the Kosovo refugees that RoM harbored and provided shelter to, at the insistence of USA
The same Albanians that now shit on the Macedonians

[Prolet]

Epirot, Pristina is a small city i've been there many times its no bigger then Podgorica by size and population. If Pristina had over 600,000 people that would make it one of the largest cities in the Former YU and that was never the case, Nish and Novi Sad are much bigger cities then Pristina and they have a population of around 350,000.

Mastika makes an interesting point, those figures are with Albanians who are dead,live abroad or come from Albania and Macedonia. Whenever there are elections in Macedonia, many Albanians from Kosovo and Albania come to vote we've seen it all before.

Mastika, VMRO backed Fijat Canoski in the last local elections however Merku rigged the votes and thats how he won a second term. His University recently got shut down because it didnt meet the national standards. On the contrary Fijat Canoski and Velija Ramkovski are svatoj since his son married Velija's daughter, thats not a very good thing in my opinion as we all know who Velija Ramkovski is.

[Uskana]

You have misunderstood the bulk of my post.

Irregularities in the voting system are common on both sides.

As for issues with the census here some info for you:

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=33&vId=72830871&lId=1

You understand the article better but from what I gathered from Google translator is this:


More then 25% of the classes are taught in Albanian language at the respective schools. We can even assume that most of children that take the Albanian language are predominately Albanian (although Macedonain Slavs learning the Albanian language has increased) and since all Albanians are required to learn Macedonian,a good portion of the Macedonian classes have Albanian students.

http://wwwnotes.reliefweb.int/w/RWB.NSF/8b7d095431371f6e852567cb008396bb/0c83f07136f39459c1256ca9005aad73?OpenDocument

But the tens of thousands of Macedonian citizens, mainly Albanians, who have been working in Kosovo (10,000) and Western Europe (more than 50,000 in Germany alone) for years, and the many more who have recently emigrated to the United States, have not been counted.

http://www.novamakedonija.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=46101031181&id=9&prilog=0&setIzdanie=21951

In public high schools for next school year provided a total of 35,918 student places, including 24,092 for students who will follow the teaching of Macedonian language, to 10,976 students in Albanian, Turkish and 816 of 34 Serbian language teaching

I wonder how many Roma, Bulgarian, Serbian, Vlach and etc claim to be Macedonian. Oh wait, I guess Albanians are the only ones that take other gropus. You're 65% figure is much smaller if it were to be better analyzed into these groups.