Ventilator

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  • aleksandrov
    Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 558

    #31
    Originally posted by BigMak View Post
    Vangelovski, No one agrees with the Interim Accord and the fact Macedonian has changed its flag via political force, but its undeniable the variation of the 8rayed sun has always been in Macedonian culture. Mainly in field of arts and crafts, I have plenty of photos with a 8 rayed variation, next time your in the Republic do your own research its not that hard if you can get yourself away from the local Cafana.
    The ancient 8-ray Sun symbol is simply a stripped down variation of the 16-ray Sun that Gligorov's vassal Parliament sold out in order to appease our oppressors. The 16-ray Sun has 8 primary and 8 secondary rays. The 8-ray variety is the same symbol, with only the primary rays. When Gligorov & Co. sold out the flag with the 16-ray Sun and thereby distanced themselves from the ancient indigenous origins of the Macedonian identity and cultural heritage, they also sold out the 8-ray version of that same symbol. There is nothing linking the 'ventilator' with the ancient 8-ray Sun symbol apart from the coincidence that they share the same number of rays.

    The World Macedonian Congress has in the past proposed the 8-ray version of the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol as the central element of a new Macedonian Coat of Arms. The major political parties in Macedonia don't want to hear about it, for fear that it would be seen as a violation of the Interim Accord with Greece, which explicitly says that our state will not 'appropriate' ancient Macedonian symbols, and for fear of upsetting the Albanian nationalist extremists, who insist that our state symbols should not contain indigenous Macedonian symbols. Now, why would the major parties take this position if the ancient Macedonian 8-ray Sun is already on our flag?

    I should mention that the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney, which has always rejected the 'ventilator' flag as a symbol of capitulation and treason, has adopted the 8-ray version of the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol as the central element of its new logo. It can be seen here:



    This is only a graphic design for the homepage of the new MOCS website. The site should be operational soon.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

    https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #32
      I hate the circumstances in which it was conjured, I agree that it is a sign of capitulation, and the first opportunity that presents itself we should change it back to the original. Until that day, however, it is the flag of the Macedonian state, that is the reality, and I find it highly unlikely that the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia see the new flag as something neutral and having no connection to the Macedonian ethnic group.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        #33
        Originally posted by BigMak View Post
        Vangelovski, No one agrees with the Interim Accord and the fact Macedonian has changed its flag via political force, but its undeniable the variation of the 8rayed sun has always been in Macedonian culture. Mainly in field of arts and crafts, I have plenty of photos with a 8 rayed variation, next time your in the Republic do your own research its not that hard if you can get yourself away from the local Cafana.
        BigMak,

        The sonce comes in three variations - 16, 12 and 8 rays. The ventilator comes in none until 1995.

        SoM,

        We could say the same about FYROM - the name and flag come from the same capitulation.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #34
          Vangelovski,

          The acronym is not used by every body or state, the flag is, in that respect it differs. Both capitulations are a slap in the face to Macedonians, and equally disgraceful, however, the acronym sickens me far more than the new flag.

          Do we know who exactly conjured the design of the new flag? The colours are Macedonian national colours, and the sun is inspired by the traditional Macedonian symbol (albeit not in the same form).
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • aleksandrov
            Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 558

            #35
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            ... Until that day, however, it is the flag of the Macedonian state, that is the reality, ..
            Yes, it is the official flag of the Republic of Macedonia, but I don't agree that the Republic of Macedonia is currently a Macedonian state, at least not in the sense of being a national state of the Macedonian people. The underlying question in this discussion is should we be proud of or content with a Macedonian state that is run in partnership with our oppressors, to an extent where the Albanian separatist partners are a privileged partner in all arms of government, and which uses symbols imposed against the free will of the Macedonian people, in order to appease our foreign oppressors?

            In my view, the old communist Macedonian flag is much more representative of the free will of the Macedonian people and their struggle for justice than the 'ventilator' is. Yet our community stopped using the old communist flag, in favor of the one with the ancient Macedonian Sun symbol, long before the Republic of Macedonia officially changed the communist flag. Why should we give any more respect to a flag that was explicitly imposed to appease those who blatantly deny our very right to exist as a Macedonian people and enjoy the same human rights as all other people in the world are entitled to enjoy?
            All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

            https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              #36
              SoM,

              The Interim Accord is the name, the flag, and the rest. Its a whole package - you can't seperate them out or say that one of the sub-capitulations is different from the others or the whole - thats moving into dangerous UMD territory where capitulation begins to be excused because it doesn't 'feel' as bad as other capitulations or that it is now a "reality" that must be accepted.

              However, lets follow that logic out for a sec, you say the flag is used by everyone and the name isn't, which makes it different. How is it different? All I can think of is that it makes the flag capitulation worse than the name capitulation because its much more widespread?
              Last edited by Vangelovski; 04-25-2010, 10:15 PM.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Volk
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 894

                #37
                "A" new flag was imposed, the nation chose which flag that should be. As the flag of the Republic it should be respected, the greeks or anyone else did not give us this flag.

                Having said this, the original flag will always be the flag of the Macedonian people and it should be reinstated as the official flag of our country.
                Makedonija vo Srce

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #38
                  To most Macedonians the current circumstances in RoM are not acceptable or something to be proud of, but being realistic about the situation, keeping focus on our aims, and exploring pragmatic solutions is something that should be encouraged. I cannot respect the circumstances in which the new flag was introduced, but I cannot spit on a state flag which our people have also died under.
                  Originally posted by Aleksandrov
                  In my view, the old communist Macedonian flag is much more representative of the free will of the Macedonian people and their struggle for justice than the 'ventilator' is.
                  Was the communist symbol chosen by Macedonians or imposed by others during and/or after WWII?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • julie
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 3869

                    #39
                    SoM, i do agree with what you say.
                    Am sick to the pit of my stomach with dread , a referendum on the way and a name change.
                    Started with the flag, and now our name. Our beautiful God-given Macedonian name.
                    Then it will be our identity.
                    Then what will be left....
                    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Vangelovski
                      .....you can't seperate them out or say that one of the sub-capitulations is different from the others or the whole
                      Vangelovski, granted, they both derive from the same package of capitulation, however, I don't see how highlighting the differences between the acronym and the flag is 'dangerous'.
                      ......moving into dangerous UMD territory where capitulation begins to be excused because it doesn't 'feel' as bad as other capitulations or that it is now a "reality" that must be accepted.
                      I indicated nothing of the sort. I am clear in my thoughts and know exactly what I am writing, you should apply the same tact when addressing my comments rather than delivering a response based on misinterpretation.
                      ........you say the flag is used by everyone and the name isn't, which makes it different. How is it different?
                      You just answered your own question.
                      All I can think of is that it makes the flag capitulation worse than the name capitulation because its much more widespread?
                      Did I not say that both capitulations are a slap in the face to Macedonians, and equally disgraceful?
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • indigen
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 1558

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Volk View Post
                        "A" new flag was imposed
                        What happened to the old flag? Who IMPOSED the NEW flag and WHY and for WHAT PURPOSE? What OTHER country has had a NATIONAL flag (symbol of sovereignty) taken away by another country and claim that it is sovereign?

                        the nation chose which flag that should be.
                        THAT is an OXYMORON, Volk! :-)
                        You can't have a flag that is IMPOSED and at the same time say the nation "chose" it!
                        As the flag of the Republic it should be respected, the greeks or anyone else did not give us this flag.
                        Are YOU sure, mate?

                        Having said this, the original flag will always be the flag of the Macedonian people and it should be reinstated as the official flag of our country.
                        The original 1992-95 RoM flag was in itself a MODIFIED (cut-down) version of the (TRUE) MACEDONIAN SUN SYMBOL (from Kutlesh and many other places) in order not to offend the Grks. Macedonians who knew and know their heritage did/do not utilise it but stick to the original design, which they have been using for many years prior 1992 mods.



                        The Macedonian Sun Flag (Edno i Edinstveno
                        Narodno Zname na Makedoncite shirum Svetot!)



                        Last edited by indigen; 04-26-2010, 12:37 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Mastika
                          Member
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 503

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

                          Do we know who exactly conjured the design of the new flag? The colours are Macedonian national colours, and the sun is inspired by the traditional Macedonian symbol (albeit not in the same form).
                          According to Wikipedia: "The flag of the Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: Знаме на Република Македонија) depicts a stylised yellow sun on a red field, with eight broadening rays extending from the centre to the edge of the field. It was created by Pr. Miroslav Grčev and was adopted on 5 October 1995 after a one-year economic blockade imposed by Greece in order to force the Republic of Macedonia to remove the ancient Macedonian Vergina Sun from the flag, thus it is one of the world's newest flags. Red and yellow have always been considered the main colors representing Macedonia, probably because of the colors of the historical coat of arms of Macedonia. The new eight-rayed sun represents "the new sun of Liberty" referred to in the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia, Denes nad Makedonija ("Today over Macedonia")"

                          The change of the flag was firstly not accepted by conservative Macedonians and self-proclaimed patriots. In the first years after the change, both flags were officially flown for a long time. Between 1995 and 1998, in the municipalities where then-opposition party VMRO-DPMNE ruled, only the old flag was flown from institution buildings. Popular opinion was divided about the merits of changing the flag; a survey carried out before the Assembly's vote found that a bare majority of the population, 56.33 percent, supported the adoption of a new flag. Nonetheless the Assembly voted for the new flag by an overwhelming majority, with 110 of the 115 delegates voting in favour, one voting against and four abstaining.


                          Grcev appears to be a graphic designer.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #43
                            The sun symbol and its relevance to Macedonians is clear when observed in the proper context. Were sun symbols, in one exact same form, used continuously by the Macedonians? No. However, has the sun, in one form or another, been a symbol of significance for Macedonians? Yes. Is the ancient symbol the oldest and most significant representation? Yes. Should one of our aims be to have it reinstated as the state symbol of Macedonia? Yes.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • indigen
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2009
                              • 1558

                              #44
                              10 години од промената на државното знаме
                              Весна В. Тодоровска
                              05.10.2005

                              Државното знаме е старо 10 години. На 5-ти октомври 95-тата, Македонија под притисок на Грција го усвои сегашното и ги замени 16-те краци од Кутлеш, откриени во 70-тите години на гробот на Филип Македонски.

                              И сега сме под притисок на Грција, овојпат за името. Добивме ли нешто со уставната промена на знамето?

                              „Таа одлука беше направена од незрелост од луѓето кои беа на власт, кои не ја сфаќаа силата на симболите и затоа го имаме овој проблем сега - дека еден голем дел од луѓето не го сфаќаат тоа знаме како свое“, изјави Јован Јоновски, претседател на македонското-хералдичко друштво.
                              „Не знам што беше таа промена која побаруваше да се променат државните симболи. Кога тие се променуваат - кога доаѓа до големи промени, во намалувањето на територии, зголемувањето на територии, нови царства, нови владетели. Кај нас не се случи ништо“, рече Јоновски.

                              За 15 години самостојност, државното знаме трипати се промени. Прво се тргна социјалистичката звезда, вторпат сонцето од Кутлеш. Денешното е направено по идеја на архитектот Грчев, иако тој вели дека не било идентично со неговиот предлог.

                              Ден пред седницата на која е изгласано знамето, тајно била донесена партиски договорена одлука за неговиот изглед, обвинува Грчев.

                              „Веројатно е резултат на некоја брза и нервозна дебата, која што целеше да ги смири политичките разлики“, изјави Мирослав Грчев, автор на студијата државно знаме.
                              Сегашново знаме нема автор - вели Грчев, кој не е задоволен од изгледот. Тоа е спротивно на принципот на златна пропорција.

                              „Македонија треба да направи еден чисто домаќински, занаетски и естетски напор, да го дотера знамето, не менувајќи ништо од неговиот израз, стилизација, мотив“, рече Грчев.

                              И денеска Македонија се соочува со проблемот државно знаме. Овие пратеници му дадоа шанса на туѓо државно знаме да се вее покрај македонското.

                              А1 Македонија е член на Групацијата А1 Телеком Австрија, водечки провајдер за комуникациски и дигитални решенија во Централна и Источна Европа.


                              for fair use only.

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                              • indigen
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2009
                                • 1558

                                #45
                                The process of adoption of the current flag of Macedonia

                                In his book Znaci i ornamenti (Muzej na sovremena umetnost, Skopje 2005), Pr. Grcev (b. 1955, Professor of Urban Planning at the Faculty of Architecture of Skoplje) provides his original flag proposal and the construction sheet. The flag was designed to be in proportions 5:8 (being a nice approximation of the Golden section Φ, according to Grcev, with the mesh of 10 x 16 squares (let's call this length A) providing for the design elements - the central disk was to be circumscribing the central four such squares (i.e. having diameter of A*sqrt(2) ) while the eight yellow rays were to be triangles - the vertical rays with apexes in the centre of the flag and bases 2 Along, the horizontal rays with apexes one A away from the centre in opposite direction and bases also 2 A long. The diagonal rays had apexes in opposite corners of a rectangle 2 A wide and 1.25 A high (i.e. having diagonals matching the diagonals of the flag!) while having base 3 A long along the top and bottom edges and touching the host and fly edges - so that the flag diagonals from the division lines between red and yellow there.
                                Apparently the Parliament (or probably some of its committees) decided to amend the overall proportions and added the red ring around the sun disk.

                                Željko Heimer, 12 February 2009

                                At link below one can see a design by Grchev that appears to be his original intention:

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