Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • El Bre
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 713

    Originally posted by Truth Bearer View Post
    According to yr theories since the Greek language dissapeared and only a few elite spoke it how come I speak it and you don't?Yes you may as you must be from Florina region but why hasn't the language survived in the north central Balkans?
    In a way you answered your own question. The revival had a starting point and subsequently radiated outward incorporating various other non Greek peoples in it's wake. It's influence fizzled the further it was from it's epicentre.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      How will the 'name game' end?

      At the moment it is difficult to determine how things will go, the circumstances seem to be changing daily, support in the Balkans is with Macedonia although recently Albania has bent over for their Greek masters. The U.S, Russia and China recognize us, this holds value in itself, but with recent pro-Greek reports and Obama's apparent stance against Macedonians (or for Greeks) things can also change there where it concerns the Americans, although all is speculation at the moment.

      Now Crvenkovski is apparently leading the talks from Macedonia's end, a known sellout and fool reputed for his bad decision making in the past, and one who has already made it clear that he is for a name change.

      Will the Macedonian government submit and change the constitutional name? I don't believe they will. Many say that we should pull out of the negotiations altogether, and I tend to agree in many respects, but what are the consequences of this, will Macedonia then lose the battle by default and allow Greece to have a free reign of influence in the international arena? Politics is never that easy, it is a difficult game we are in.

      We have held our own for a while now, and haven't faltered, albeit damage has been done already by past governments. My opinion is with most Macedonians, no name change, no more concessions, if anything, let's take some back. However, hypothetically speaking, if something must be done and we are left with no option, then what could it be? A name for bi-lateral use with Greece such as Upper Macedonia? Will we accept this? Are we going to seek anything in return, like the recognition of our people and language in both Macedonia and Greece by the native Macedonian name?

      What actual benefits do we have by joining the EU and NATO? Whatever they are, nothing is worth our name and identity, nothing.

      I guess what I am seeking here is the opinion of others on how all of this will end according to them. I would be interested in any thoughts.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • makedonin
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1668

        I will speak for my self. I would agree on Upper Macedonia if there is still reference on Macedonian Language and Culture i.e. our language will stay Macedonian as well as the Culture. This is mandatory for me.

        It will be so, that the Prefix Upper will certainly fall out with time as many have forgoten about F.Y.R. prefix standing before Macedonia.

        It will open the gates for Entry in Institutions and will be easier for those who live in Macedonia.

        But I don't see it happens.
        To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

        Comment

        • Rogi
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2343

          Allow me to stress this...

          If we really care about the Rights of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, then we need to put some serious importance on the name that Greece will recognise us with.

          Forget the International name, that cannot change whatsoever under any circumstance, I am talking about the 'double formula' potential solution and the name will will accept for Greece to use for us - it's very important if we in future want the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia to associate with the Republic of Macedonia - as the same people.

          Comment

          • Rogi
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2343

            Has anyone looked at the United Nations position on the name for Myanmar / Burma?

            "The United Nations accepts the name Myanmar, since the UN allows its members states to be known by any name they choose."

            Furthermore, "...it has not been recognized by many Western governments such as the United States, Australia, Canada or the United Kingdom, which continue to use "Burma".

            This means Australia, who has not yet recognised Macedonia's Constitutional name has clear double-standards, as in one case it goes against the United Nations, whereas in the case of Macedonia it claims it is following the United Nations.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              That's an interesting parallel.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Royal Hellas
                Banned
                • Sep 2008
                • 104

                Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                Allow me to stress this...

                If we really care about the Rights of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, then we need to put some serious importance on the name that Greece will recognise us with.

                Forget the International name, that cannot change whatsoever under any circumstance, I am talking about the 'double formula' potential solution and the name will will accept for Greece to use for us - it's very important if we in future want the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia to associate with the Republic of Macedonia - as the same people.
                The international name is still under negotiation Rogi, as you are currently under an interim name.

                Greece wants a clear differentiation between Greek Macedonia and its Macedonians and your Aegean Macedonians.

                The Aegean Macedonians are currently referred to in Greece as Slav Macedonians.

                The Greek Government is committed to labelling the ethnicity/language as Slav Macedonian.

                I believe there will be a change and it will be okayed by the RoM government.

                Watch carefully what is happening in the current political arena in the UN, USA and you will start to feel the winds of change.

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  Rogi, it is hard call anyways.

                  It seems to me that what ever decision is made, it will have some backdraw.
                  The one who is going to make the move won't be interested in the Voice of the Macedonians, cause we are just silent voices.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Royal Hellas View Post
                    The international name is still under negotiation Rogi, as you are currently under an interim name.

                    Greece wants a clear differentiation between Greek Macedonia and its Macedonians and your Aegean Macedonians.

                    The Aegean Macedonians are currently referred to in Greece as Slav Macedonians.

                    The Greek Government is committed to labelling the ethnicity/language as Slav Macedonian.

                    I believe there will be a change and it will be okayed by the RoM government.

                    Watch carefully what is happening in the current political arena in the UN, USA and you will start to feel the winds of change.
                    The Aegean Macedonians are the Macedonians and that is what their language is called, as compared to Greeks from Macedonia. The Macedonians are not currently referred to as Slav Macedonians in Greece, they are not even acknowledged to exist.

                    I am of the impression that Greece believes it is making a concession by calling the Macedonians as Slav Macedonians - This, will not be accepted by the Macedonian side, as it will be considered a loss for us.

                    The constitutional name will not be changed, nor will its international equivalent, the only country in the world that seems to have a problem with the name of Macedonia, remains to be Greece. So wouldn't it make more sense for the Macedonian government to treat this issue as bi-lateral rather than international? I think so. The only reason why there are some others who haven't recognized our name is due to the stink kicked up by Greece, but I think it is wishful thinking on the part of the Greeks if they actually believe the constitutional name, language and identity will be changed from anything but Macedonian. These will all remain Macedonian.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      Garbage. What recognition is there from Greece, officially a state, if this recognition isn't official? Street chatter? What you are saying is false, Greece does not recognize the Macedonians in their state by any name regardless of the distinct language and identity.


                      Greece cannot formally label them as such due to the outstanding name dispute and interim agreement.
                      Come on RH, what about prior to the name dispute? Why didn't they recognize them then? Were they too busy supporting the politics of racists who wanted to "cut out their tongues" as one Greek paper put it? The name dispute is just an excuse.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        Let me ask you, given that Greece does not recognize any of its ethnic minorities apart from a religious minority, do you actually believe that Greece would recognize and respect the Macedonians and the right to promote and keep their culture and language alive on an official platform regardless of the designated name?

                        I think that even if Greece forced the name of Slav Macedonians on the Macedonians within the country, they would still do everything possible to deny them their right to self-determination.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Royal Hellas
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 104

                          The Slav Macedonians are recognised in Greece but not officially.
                          Greece cannot formally label them as such due to the outstanding name dispute and interim agreement.
                          Don't forget that Greece has their own 2.5 million Macedonians in Greek Macedonia.

                          Once the name dispute is resolved, then all the other related issues such as ethnicity, language etc will be referred back to the new name accordingly.

                          Whether we like it or not, the change is inevitable, it will happen. The minorities will be officially recognised, the ethnicity and language will be accurately identified, the RoM will enter Europe, Nato etc, and we will all live happily ever after.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            As I said
                            Garbage. What recognition is there from Greece, officially a state, if this recognition isn't official? Street chatter? What you are saying is false, Greece does not recognize the Macedonians in their state by any name regardless of the distinct language and identity.
                            Recognized by whom exactly, or better yet, what organ?

                            Don't forget that Greece has their own 2.5 million Macedonians in Greek Macedonia.
                            No, Greece has 2.5 million of its citizens who reside the piece of Macedonia they occupy, many of whom are Christian Asians by descent, of which most did not speak Greek natively until they landed on European soil 85 years ago. Don't compare apples with oranges.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Royal Hellas
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 104

                              This is where the problem lies SOM. Greece does not share your view with its 2.5 million Macedonians. They are viewed as Macedonians, whether we like it or not.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Apples and oranges RH, in more ways than one.

                                These Greek citizens with largely Asian origins have not called themselves Macedonians until very recently, for my people, it is a name that represents a national identity we have lived and died for in the past and present.

                                Besides, it is like me comparing the population of a region, lets say Bitola for arguments sake, to the population of the whole Greek state. You guys can have your regional names, but they do not take priority over the national name and identity of another people.

                                There are people in Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and the rest of the Balkans who identify nationally as Macedonians, their kin live all around the world, regardless of the pressure put on the Macedonian state today by Greece to change whatever, they only refer to themselves as Macedonians and will continue to do so. Hence, a change of name for identity, language and state is not an option for our people.

                                Greece can recognize my people by the name they self-identify with and then we will live happily ever after, the Macedonian side does not attempt to prevent the Greek side in relation to what names they wish to use, hence, this problem is entirely one created and prolonged by Greece itself, nobody else.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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