Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Sovius]

Hello Sovius,

Why don't you do the same, find a bunch of PHD's to discredit the Greek position. That should give us an idea how well accpted or controversial your position is.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You just referred to me as a Nazi a few posts back, because I am someone who regards the Macedonian Ethnocide as a crime against humanity and now you are suggesting that I dig George Finlay up from his grave to engage some parrots in intellectual combat?

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!

[Daskalot]

Nimitz latest proposal, good or bad?

http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=E7C6DC7DEE87F94E84DFD6AFA6818A94

неофициЈално обЈавени промените во последниот пакет идеи на посредникот за името

Две опции за јазикот и нацијата

Нимиц ги предложил варијантите - една со латинична транскрипција на нашиот збор „македонски“, втора со новото сложено име и „македонски“ во заграда преведено на странските јазици

Република Северна Македонија за името на државата и две варијанти за јазикот и нацијата - „makedonski“ (како што е во нашиот јазик, но напишано на латиница) и „(Macedonian) Republic of North Macedonia“, се измените во последниот пакет идеи на посредникот Метју Нимиц, објави вчера скопската телевизија „Сител“.

Според информацијата, за името на државата би се користела формула со која името Република Северна Македонија (Republic of North Macedonia) би се користело во меѓународната употреба, а уставното име за внатрешна и за билатерална. Но, во пакет со ова е и препораката на Обединетите нации - земјите да го употребуваат новото сложено име. Скопската телевизија соопшти дека деталите од содржината на предлогот ги добила од „дипломатски извори“.

Посредникот во грчко-македонскиот спор за името на нашата земја Метју Нимиц неодамна ги посети Скопје и Атина при што презентира „мали“, како што самиот ги опиша, измени во октомврискиот пакет-идеи во кои исто така се предвидуваше меѓународно име Република Северна Македонија и препорака, а за јазикот и нацијата беше понудено да бидат македонски со алтернативи (официјален јазик на Република Северна Македонија и граѓанин на Северна Република Македонија). По средбите со македонските и грчките претставници тој изјави дека „сега е поголем оптимист за решавање на прашањето за името“.

Грчкиот весник „Навтемборики“ вчера ја пренесе изјавата на грчката министерка за надворешни работи Дора Бакојани дека е неопходно да се најде име „што ќе се користи од сите“. Весникот истакнува дека таа упатила јасна порака до властите во Скопје, кои прават обиди во евентуалното решение да нема препораки кон трети држави да го признаат новото име на државата.

- Она што треба да биде јасно е дека разговараме за едно решение, кое ќе се практикува. И единствен начин е името да важи за сите - изјави Бакојани.

Македонската и грчката страна своите одговори за предлогот треба да му ги достават на посредникот метју Нимиц до август.

САД чекаат решение

Заменик-државниот секретар на САД, Џејмс Стајнберг, изразил желба прашањето за грчко-македонскиот спор за името да биде затворено со компромис за Македонија да стане членка во НАТО. Стајнберг ова го посочил на средбата со македонскиот министер за надворешни работи, Антонио Милошоски во Дубровник, беше официјално соопштено во Скопје.

„На средбата со Стајнберг повторно беа истакнати напредокот во реформските процеси и придонесот на Република Македонија во мировните мисии, особено во Авганистан, а беше искажано и заемно задоволство од начинот на кој се одвива стратегиското партнерство помегу РМ и САД“, се истакнува во соопштението.

[makedonin]

A crap as usual.

[Daskalot]

Yes, it is utter crap, we Macedonians need to tell Mr. Nimitz that we will end the name negotiations here and now.

[makedonin]

Yes, it is utter crap, we Macedonians need to tell Mr. Nimitz that we will end the name negotiations here and now.

Would be nice if the goverment does that, but kinda doubt that.

Seems that there is a preasure from all sides, and Gruevsi is trieing to prolong this cause he fears consequences if he yield.

He is good man, it appears, cause unlike the others, at least during his mandate things happened and things got built in Macedonia.

But on the end, I don't know what will come up out of this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is by far the most absurd proposal this overpaid idiot from the UN has suggested.

[Volk]

I know, we can be Republic of Macedonia, except spelt in Chinese symbols, idiots

[Risto the Great]

How utterly offensive.
I cannot believe this behaviour has been tolerated for so long.
If Macedonians are unable to forge and shape their destiny, then the UN and any other group of racists will continue to feel compelled to do their job for them. Can you imagine telling a competent adult how he should run his life?

[Giorikas]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You just referred to me as a Nazi a few posts back, because I am someone who regards the Macedonian Ethnocide as a crime against humanity and now you are suggesting that I dig George Finlay up from his grave to engage some parrots in intellectual combat?

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!

I don't remember calling you personally a Nazi. Please provide the link. I called others Nazi in reaction to calling me racist. That's way over the top.
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.
Thirdly, the reason why I mentioned these PHD's is not to show you that I'm right because they say so. Theoretically they can all be wrong of course. It's to show you that I'm not the olnly one who finds it difficult to believe that you remained pure of blood, unmixed with anyone (especially with God forbid Turks or Bulgarians), and direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians.
There are PHD's that say the same thing as I. There are even politicians in ROM who said the same thing. So how can I be isolated ?

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, I have been overseas. I understand a cockroach can live without its head for 12 days. I thought you would be alright without a response for a while. Apparently not.

When the top professors of the top universities call Alexander's ethnicity "dubious" and are aware of the persecution of minorities in Greece, it is clear that your "signatories" have acute knowledge of the situation but understand the economics of their existence and give it more priority than their conscience.

I asked each of the professors if they would mind making our private correspondence public. They declined. Being a man of integrity, I have honoured their wishes. It is a shame because the correspondence with the people I have had would absolutely blow any of these perceived Greek arguments out of the water. As ultimately the debate can only be focussed on modern arguments about sovereignty and the right to self identification. Greece knows it will fail this argument every time. It has no provinces called Macedonia. Please feel free to check. Not that it matters anyway.

When professors of leading institutions are admitting they are funded by Greece on many projects it is not difficult to understand their motivation for signing that hateful letter.

Feel free to read the link on this website to Professor Tompkins review of the Miller letter. Tell me what you disagree with. Interestingly, the professors from esteemed universities around the world were also unable to disagree with the points he raised. Yet they signed a letter to secure future funding it would seem.

I promise you, you are most welcome to visit me and I will show you my private correspondence with these people. Call it a Haji pilgrimage to Australia if you like.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, most professors with whom a number of Macedonians have had contact, who are alleged 'signatories' to Miller's list, have privately stated their opposition to Miller's letter and its intention.

They have also asked that any private correspondence remain private - and I suppose understandably so when their livelihood is at stake.

I expect whatever correspondence Risto has had with any professors, is of the same nature.

Nobody needs to prove anything to you, since you are an irrelevant non-factor for this case.

Well, it's odd. These are PHD's not politicians. I believe (regardsless which side they would support) that no one would let their professional reputation be affected. (by co-signing something something) Especially if they 'oppose it'.
It's odd that they should have private correspondances with complete strangers, where not only they admit this (put their reputation on the line) but in fact admit that they are being paid, and that they will continue to be paid. It doesn't make sense.

Also, I don't see how their livelyhood is at stake. What do you mean ? Will they disappear ? Will they lose their jobs for voicing their opposition ? Will they be denied entry for Greece ? Will their family members be harrassed ?
Finally I don't understand why you should protect your enemy. What do you have to lose ? Also, even if I am glad that a large numer of PHD's think the same way as me, I personally would not like to see bought support. If they agree, good, if not, fine too, (in the end, this is a debate where not everything is crystal clear) but certainly I wouldn't want anybody paid off to agree with me just for reasons of financial benefits.
Summarizing; I consider all this as total nonsense. Either make a statement and back it up, or don't make the statement.

[Daskalot]

Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.

Giorikas, I think you need to read Alexandras recent response to Prof. Miller please read it here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1569

There you will notice that Miller has revised himself and does not call on the current US administration to revoke its decision in regards to the name of Macedonia, but rather to protect Alexanders legacy.

Please give us your answer in the above mentiond thread, I am really keen on hearing it.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, I have been overseas. I understand a cockroach can live without its head for 12 days. I thought you would be alright without a response for a while. Apparently not.

When the top professors of the top universities call Alexander's ethnicity "dubious" and are aware of the persecution of minorities in Greece, it is clear that your "signatories" have acute knowledge of the situation but understand the economics of their existence and give it more priority than their conscience.

I asked each of the professors if they would mind making our private correspondence public. They declined. Being a man of integrity, I have honoured their wishes. It is a shame because the correspondence with the people I have had would absolutely blow any of these perceived Greek arguments out of the water. As ultimately the debate can only be focussed on modern arguments about sovereignty and the right to self identification. Greece knows it will fail this argument every time. It has no provinces called Macedonia. Please feel free to check. Not that it matters anyway.

When professors of leading institutions are admitting they are funded by Greece on many projects it is not difficult to understand their motivation for signing that hateful letter.

Feel free to read the link on this website to Professor Tompkins review of the Miller letter. Tell me what you disagree with. Interestingly, the professors from esteemed universities around the world were also unable to disagree with the points he raised. Yet they signed a letter to secure future funding it would seem.

I promise you, you are most welcome to visit me and I will show you my private correspondence with these people. Call it a Haji pilgrimage to Australia if you like.

I'm quite allright without your responses thank you. Please leave the cockroach references out of it. I'm not doing the same with you. Last warning.

What do you mean with 'each of the professors' ? Do you mean, 'each of the professors you contacted', or 'each of the professors that you contacted and admitted that being paid off' or do you mean, each of the professors on the list.
If it means, 'each of the professors you contacted and admitted being paid off' to a stranger on paper (I find that difficult to believe) then the follwing:
To make it a bit less vague, how many did you contact, and how many admitted being paid off ? You can mention that without exposing anyone. What is the number we can take away from that list.

It's a really strange story. I mean, Greece is a small country that hardly has money to fund it's own university programmes, and has much overdue archeological works that need urgent funding. I find it not very likely that significant enough sums go abroad to foreign universities.

Surely you can (and let everyone draw it's own conclusions based upon that) make an overview of how much money goes from Greece to which foreign universities, per university. That would not expose anyone and you would honor your word not to use that correspondance. That should be public knowlegde.

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.

So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.