United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    What a shame you aren't running the UMD then, Makedonche, because I cannot see Meto and co. making such a stand, lest they 'rock the boat'.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Sovius
      Member
      • Apr 2009
      • 241

      I think a brief overview of the occupation and partition of Macedonia would have been of great value. Most Americans aren’t aware of what’s really going on. There’s this erroneous notion that what is happening is a legitimate political dispute requiring a diplomatic solution. The strength of this politician’s message is what it doesn’t convey and ignorance goes a long way no matter what country you live in. What if his constituents were aware of what he is truly asking his fellow scat slingers to support?

      Comment

      • blackcactus
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 242

        This is getting us nowhere fast, time to rein in

        We are all on the same side here, it’s our lack of trust that is getting peoples backs up, why wouldn’t anyone be offended with such an approach!

        We need to trust each other again, to strengthen our foundation

        We all approach our cause in different ways, some like to be in the Phalanx hitting the enemy head on, some the Cavalry striking from the flank, and others raining arrows on the enemy from afar. But we are all part of the same army, individually we can not stand, but together we are potent

        Allow others to be who they are and help in any way they can, don’t be so proud as to scorn your own

        We need to work like a great army or organism, not Phalanx fighting the Cavalry, not Arm fighting the Leg, but stand together with our focus squarely on the enemy!
        Last edited by blackcactus; 01-20-2010, 11:08 PM.
        The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

        “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

        Comment

        • makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2008
          • 3242

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          What a shame you aren't running the UMD then, Makedonche, because I cannot see Meto and co. making such a stand, lest they 'rock the boat'.
          SOM
          I hope UMD are tracking the post and reply with a comment.
          On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

          Comment

          • Bill77
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 4545

            Originally posted by Sovius View Post
            I think a brief overview of the occupation and partition of Macedonia would have been of great value. Most Americans aren’t aware of what’s really going on. There’s this erroneous notion that what is happening is a legitimate political dispute requiring a diplomatic solution. The strength of this politician’s message is what it doesn’t convey and ignorance goes a long way no matter what country you live in. What if his constituents were aware of what he is truly asking his fellow scat slingers to support?
            And while they are at it, they can apoligise for the Bombings during the Greek civil war that killed inocent Macedonians including women and children, Which most Americans aren't also aware of.
            Last edited by Bill77; 01-20-2010, 09:52 PM.
            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              I agree with your sentiments Blackcactus, how do you propose we keep these apparent Diaspora 'leaders' honest? How should we have gone about with the line of questioning towards the UMD, and how should we then counter their denials of the obvious? I wish there was another way to do this, but it is hard to manage such a situation when some people refuse to take accountability for their actions and words. How do we make them accountable?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • makedonche
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2008
                • 3242

                Originally posted by Sovius View Post
                I think a brief overview of the occupation and partition of Macedonia would have been of great value. Most Americans aren’t aware of what’s really going on. There’s this erroneous notion that what is happening is a legitimate political dispute requiring a diplomatic solution. The strength of this politician’s message is what it doesn’t convey and ignorance goes a long way no matter what country you live in. What if his constituents were aware of what he is truly asking his fellow scat slingers to support?
                Sovius
                It's my experience that politicians only tell you what they want you to know, otherwise you might try and hold them accountable for too many things.
                On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  The doubt over Macedonia's name among U.S Senators is no doubt a result of Greek lobby groups.

                  But there another dimension to all of this.

                  The Official line of the Macedonian government and of UMD is that Macedonia is willing to negotiate its historical identity.

                  It has made this "willingness to negotiate" a cornerstone of ALL of its foriegn policy relations.

                  Have these idiots ever bothered to consider what the discursive effects of such actions might be.

                  As if there isn't enough doubt about the Macedonian identity produced by Greece and by Greek lobby groups, the Macedonian government has sent a message to the world over the last two decades that Macedonians are ready to compromise, and willing to compromise, but that Greece is not serious. This was precisely the position of UMD in a recent statement.

                  We can blame the Greek lobby group and racist Senators all we like, but the failure of Macedonians to react strongly, but fairly and within reason to the terms put to it by Greece has contributed significantly to this negative atmosphere surrounding our historical identity.

                  Everyone with any experience in State affairs and politics around the world can see that the Macedonians are being taken for a ride.

                  In some ways the Macedonians are the laughing stock of the international community, simply because they have been willing to accept terms and demands no other normal functioning State would even consider for a moment.

                  States do not respect that kind of weakness, specifically when even the most fundamental principles in their defence have been forsaken and abandoned entirely. No one likes an apologist. Their actions sent the message that they are apologising to the world for being Macedonians, and the apologists who support this defeatist and servantile position - continue with the bullshit line that we have no choice in the matter.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by Sovius
                    There’s this erroneous notion that what is happening is a legitimate political dispute requiring a diplomatic solution.
                    Excellent point, this is what needs to be brought to the attention of the US and others, the very fact that this artificial dispute exists is a farce.
                    Originally posted by Makedonche
                    SOM
                    I hope UMD are tracking the post and reply with a comment.
                    So do I mate.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      Originally posted by Dzog View Post
                      Chris,

                      I never said I was Greek.

                      I am full of shit but I don't feel that I need to be honest on an internet forum that I go on when I'm bored. If you want to use them to display your super-duper intelligence and awesome patriotism then the stage is yours but don't you think that at your age you should be doing more meaningful things with your life rather than fuck around with idiots like myself?

                      You're not a Bitolcanec? Who cares. Whichever way you slice it, shit is still shit.


                      Osiris,

                      You sound like a good dude. Don't get caught up with all this bullshit.


                      P.S. I see the irony in hurling personal abuse in a thread I started about quelling tensions within the Macedonian community. Well, what can you do?
                      You practically had an entire geneaology of our Greek/Vlach descent worked out at Maknews.

                      If you feel that you do not need to be honest, then you're a lying bastard which is what I suspected from the start anyway.

                      Keep my personal details out of the forum. I don't know who you are, and I don't really care, but using personal names of people who choose to have a forum name without their consent or permission is crossing a confidential line. If you want to talk to me on a personal level, PM me.

                      I am no big patriot and I am no big intellectual - I don't even come close. Its people like BC, SoM, RTG, Prolet, Bratot, Osiris, TM, Daskalot, Phoenix, Indigen and so many others who feel enormous pride about being Macedonians and want to defend our position. My faith in Macedonians has been shaken by these negotiations, by UMD and those like them. And its no secret that I am frustrated by the lunacy of it all.

                      But I can see when the Macedonian people are being royally skrewed over by people like yourself. By the tiny group of men and women who speak for them, speak on behalf of them in international and political forums - and are ever ready to stab them in the back. By those who fully back all the current structures and frameworks that have put impossible terms to the Macedonians, terms put to them by Greece and backed by Europe and NATO. The slavish worship of these institutions at UMD is neaseating.

                      As for your bullshit views (As Dzog "the Greek of Vlach descent") that the Macedonian people need not be consulted, or asked whether they want their historical identity negotiatined in the first place - you can go fk yourself - because if they were actually asked tommorrow whether they want this to continue or not the answer would be 'No'.

                      You took particular care to make sure you had a few digs at me personally while I was being censored at Maknews for my criticism of UMD. I won't forget what you did, whoever you claim to be.
                      Last edited by Pelister; 01-20-2010, 10:46 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Sovius
                        Member
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 241

                        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                        And while they are at it, they can apoligise for the Bombings during the Greek civil war that killed inocent Macedonians including women and children, Which most Americans aren't also aware of.



                        Most Americans aren’t even aware that, along with Winston Churchill, Franklin Delanor Roosevelt knew about the Nazi Holocaust for three years and did nothing to stop it. The original wire sent out by Armija Krajowa in May of 1942 is just sitting in the Truman Archive collecting dust. Instead of studying the genocide of many of the native American tribal groups, American students focus on the pioneering spirit of settlers during the 19th Century and their “resourcefulness”. Kind of spooky, really. We are observing the same kind of de-emphasis and re-imaging in real time when we read about the Macedonian struggle through the mediums that are made available to us.

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          Originally posted by Sovius View Post
                          We are observing the same kind of de-emphasis and re-imaging in real time when we read about the Macedonian struggle through the mediums that are made available to us.
                          It is up to us Macedonians to inform the world at every opportunity.

                          Interesting stuff btw Sovius.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • indigen
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2009
                            • 1558

                            Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                            So if it is so illegal, Why didn't the citizens do anything about it? Let's try and arrest those responsible for treason (that would be 75% of the population of Macedonia)
                            Now Macedonian people are to blame for all the dirty deeds of internal and external anti-Macedonian forces tirelessly trying to destroy the Macedonian ethno-national identity, historical cultural heritage and spirit of resistance through every available avenue there is - through the state education system, public and private media, threats and intimidation through the use of armed force, and the list goes on.

                            Secondly, it was YOU, amongst a few other UMD-ovci, that brought up the "Constitution" (the UCK wish-list) and tried to use it as justification for some ambit claims and now when it is CLEARLY established that the pre-capitulation USTAV (Constitution) and law were completely breached and HIGH-TREASON was committed (and when the likes of YOU and UMD worship the TRAITORS, e.g. Boris Trajkovski, as heroes), you skirt the VERY relevant questions posed to you. Why am I NOT surprised that you do NOT want to seek truth? Is it because you and fellow travellers in UMDovland are simple stooges and apologists for the political masters of RoM's puppet politicians?

                            Originally Posted by Buktop View Post
                            I am sorry Vangelovski but you cannot argue with what the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia says, no matter how hard you try, or how much you don't want to believe it...
                            It seems that it is xxxxxxx like U who can not argue with what the (1991) Constitution (and the law) said and still says and how it is a mockery of natural justice, basic democracy and human rights and the greatest of insults to the dignity and intelligence of ALL right-thinking Macedonians and lovers of truth and justice.

                            This is what the Constitution says in the following articles:

                            Vii. ОДБРАНА НА РЕПУБЛИКАТА, ВОЕНА И ВОНРЕДНА СОСТОЈБА

                            Член 122
                            Вооружените сили на Република Македонија го штитат територијалниот интегритет и независноста на Републиката.

                            Одбраната на Републиката се уредува со закон што се донесува со двотретинско мнозинство гласови од вкупниот број пратеници.

                            Член 123
                            Никој нема право да признае окупација на Република Македонија или на нејзин дел.
                            Do you think the constitution was breached (and HIGH TREASON COMMITTED) in 2001 by those that disregarded their constitutional responsibilities and enacted the capitulationist "Ramkoven dogovor"?

                            What is the penalty for high treason in USA?

                            Was Boris Trajkovski guilty of high treason?

                            Why is Boris Trajkovski promoted as a hero by UMD? Is the UMD a RAMKOVIST (and Vrhovist) support group?

                            And here is what the head of Macedonian Orthodox Church, gospodin gospdin Stefan, said (this should have some meaning for you since Meto and the likes of you have some history of belonging to MOYANA) in 2001 in relation to those that voted for and enacted the FA:


                            Поглаварот на Македонската православна црква Неговото блаженство архиепископот охридски и македонски господин господин Стефан ексклузивно за "Нова Македонија" изјави:

                            - По сите случувања од средината на февруари до денес, по Танушевци, Тетовско Кале, Липково, Арачиново, по теророт, насилствата, киднапирањата, силувањата, по палежот и грабежот, по етничкото чистење, по жртвите и ранувањата и по сето однесување на најодговорните од државниот врв, вклучувајќи ги, еве, и пратениците, кои со промената на Преамбулата и со прифаќањето речиси на се што е предложено во Рамковниот договор, а се однесува на Уставот на Република Македонија, на македонската држава и народ - вреди ли да се коментира?

                            Ако чувствувам жал и болка по Лешочкиот манастир и по оштетените фрески во Матејче и другите светињи, продолжи Неговото блаженство, за кои се знае кој ги направи тие невидени злодела, ова што се изгласа за промена на чл.19 од Уставот на Република Македонија, е само потврда на националната и духовната апостазија (отпадништво-з.н.) на овие, за жал, само со име македонски народни избраници, кои во континуитет, со мал исклучок, гласаат како одродени и невидени богоборци. До таа мера да се биде без достоинство, без национална и духовна свест, да се биде таков послушник на штета на својот народ, земја и Црква, е неспоредливо со сите најлоши и најтрагични примери од нашата историја. Сигурно некој нов Прличев ќе ги овековечи и нив како стреите на Бујар Лигдо и Станче Беј и другите, и овие соучесници во рушењето на македонските национални и духовни вредности, рече архиепископот г.г. Стефан.

                            [....]


                            Clearly, it can easily be deduced that the FA was/is more destructive to the Macedonian national cause (existence) than some care (or are able) to admit.

                            The following interview given by Dr Gjorgji Marjanovikj for Makedonsko Sonce is more relevant info on what Macedonian law required in 2001:


                            СТОЛЕ АНДОВ СИ ПРАВИ БАЈРАМ СО УМОТ

                            Пишува: Жаклина МИТЕВСКА

                            […...]

                            Потпишувањето на Рамковниот договор и предлогот за уставни промени предизвика многу реакции и осуди во македонската јавност. Македонците со право стравуваат дека со овој документ ќе го загубат својот национален идентитет и својата држава.

                            Нашиот Устав, како што вели д-р Ѓорѓи Марјановиќ, професор по кривично право и лидер на Лигата за демократија, има многу недостатоци, или, како што објаснува тој, Уставот е плод на народот, а ниеден плод на народот не е совршен. Недостатоците треба да се отстранат, но се разбира во законска процедура, а не под притисок на оружјето в рака.


                            Во многу европски земји (на пример, во Франција и Белгија), кога земјата е во опасност се забранува промена на Уставот. Во Германија (како и кај нас, впрочем, зашто таа одредба во целост е преземена од германскиот Кривичен законик) се смета за кривично дело "велепредавство" ако некој со сила или со сериозна закана се обиде да го смени нејзиниот уставен поредок. Република Македонија во однос на тоа прашање има идентична одредба. Така, според членот 305 од македонскиот Кривичен законик, тој што со сила или сериозна закана ќе се обиде да го смени уставниот поредок на РМ, ќе се казни со затвор најмалку пет години. Ако при извршувањето на ова кривично дело со умисла се лишени од живот едно или повеќе лица (чл. 327 ст. 2 КЗ), казната е затвор најмалку десет години или доживотна робија.

                            КАПИТУЛАЦИЈА

                            Македонија, вели Марјановиќ, е нападната. Од првиот ден т.н. ОНА го зеде оружјето и побара менување на Уставот. Кога се менува Уставот под диктат на една вооружена банда, тогаш правната држава капитулира. Тоа е капитулација и на правната држава во Европа, зашто ние се угледуваме на Европа и сакаме да влеземе во неа. Европа ни сугерира да го менуваме Уставот и ни праќа "ојлевци - дојлевци" во ликот на господата Леотар и Пердју. Под нивниот диктат го правиме она што тие не би го направиле во својата држава. Значи, тие Македонија и не ја сметаат за држава (а уште помалу за "правна држава"), туку за поранешна југословенска република, односно држава во настанување, во која и не мора да важат законите, додава тој.

                            Марјановиќ ги повикува пратениците да не гласаат за уставните промени, зашто мора да бидат свесни за фактот дека Рамковниот договор е производ на грубата сила на балистичките банди на Али Ахмети, а од друга страна, дури и кога не би било така, овој изнуден договор нема да ги постигне очекуваните резултати.

                            Ако го изгласаме Рамковниот договор, Македонија станува заложник на балистичко-платеничките орди на албанската мафија, а не држава во вистинска смисла на зборот. Впрочем, се вели во реакцијата на Лигата за демократија, да бевме вистинска држава, ниту Европа, ниту Америка немаше да се осмелат да не присилат да преговараме со терористи.

                            Ако се усвојат уставните промени пред целосното разоружување на т.н. ОНА, таа, како што објаснува Марјановиќ, само формално ќе се разоружа, како што се случи со ОВК на Косово. Битката ќе ја продолжи т.н. АНА, која ќе го задржи оружјето.

                            Никој не знае колку оружје имаат терористите. Тоа не го знае ниту нивниот лидер Али Ахмети. Само Столе Андов може да си прави бајрам со умот и да кажува дека една третина од оружјето ќе биде предадено во првата фаза. Од каде тој пак знае колку оружје имаат терористите?! Тоа само Господ го знае. А, ние ако еднаш попуштиме пред притисокот на силата, ќе попуштиме и другпат. Албанците ќе знаат дека се екстериторијален народ и дека можат да прават се што сакаат. Ќе најдат механизми за притисок да ги остварат своите барања, а конечното барање е отцепување на еден дел од Македонија, вели Марјановиќ.


                            Во изменетата Преамбулата на Уставот ќе ги нема Македонците, односно Македонија нема веќе да биде национална држава на македонскиот народ. Тоа, како што објаснува Марјановиќ, значи дека Македонија практично станува само географски поим - територија, а прашање на време е кој народ тука ќе биде доманантен.

                            Она што е предвидено во Договорот не е нормално. Од договореното произлегува дека единствено во градот Струмица македонскиот јазик би бил единствениот службен јазик. Тоа што законите ќе се преведуват и на албански јазик само дополнително ќе ја оптоварува државата, додава проф. Марјановиќ.
                            […..]



                            Last edited by indigen; 01-23-2010, 06:08 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              UMD could have strengthed this, and its other statements, by directly calling on the Macedonian Government to end the negotiations and declare the Interim Accord 'null and void'.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • blackcactus
                                Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 242

                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                I agree with your sentiments Blackcactus, how do you propose we keep these apparent Diaspora 'leaders' honest? How should we have gone about with the line of questioning towards the UMD, and how should we then counter their denials of the obvious? I wish there was another way to do this, but it is hard to manage such a situation when some people refuse to take accountability for their actions and words. How do we make them accountable?
                                Trusting people is the key, then work on your problems

                                By all means ask the tough questions, but you must do it from the positive or you meet understandable resistance

                                I personally know Pelister and Phoenix, and they are good honest men. Although they are different from me and we may not see everything the same way, I trust them, as I think they do me, our friendship has remained strong

                                I respect their views, and I’m very happy to let them be who they are as we are all fighting in the same “Army”. Pelister and Phoenix may be more Phalanx and I’m more Cavalry, but we back each other up, as we have done countless times in the past

                                I also trust the UMD, but it does not mean I won’t question them, and challenge them, but I trust they have their hearts in right place where it concerns Macedonia

                                The UMD also needs to show trust in us, once they feel they can’t, the flow of information and help both ways dries up as I suspect it is starting to happen or will happen. This is very dangerous for all of us, and the UMD. We all risk isolation if we loose trust in people, I hope this wont go that far

                                Without mutual trust, a self fulfilling Prophesy of blame will over take us

                                In short… show trust to work together
                                Last edited by blackcactus; 01-20-2010, 11:19 PM.
                                The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                                “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

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