Financial Crisis in Greece

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  • Tomche Makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2011
    • 1123

    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
    The point obviously is that you are 2,4% of our exports and an unclear 0+ % of our imports and we are 4% of your exports and 11% of your imports, namely your 1st or 2nd most important trade partner.
    Indeed an important point. The key lessons you think that should have been learned from the early nineties appear to have been mostly overlooked. As it has been highlighted by many already, unfortunately short sightedness and personal gain has, and continues to, rule the mindset of our leaders in RoM and we are again unable to potentially capitalise on presenting opportunities to our full extent.
    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      look there is too much at stake once they are out of the erozone they will be screwed because they won't be helped in any way and the debt grows by the day.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Bill77
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 4545

        Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
        Surprise: According to exit polls NO is winning with 51-52,5%. Hmmm....
        No one more surprised than Tsipras and Varoufakis. Syriza was hoping to lose the referendum and has no idea what to do now.....which is why Varoufakis has ran for his life lol.

        Tsipras and Varoufakis called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it. The plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, resign (as Varoufakis threatened pre vote if yes vote won) leaving it to others to implement the June 25 "ultimatum" and both disappear in the sunset as some heroes that were tough and fought for the country.

        Varoufakis got it his way...and resigned anyway
        Whats more mind boggling is he has dumped his country in a more difficult situation thanks to his push for no vote...and Greeks are making him out to be some hero anyway
        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
          No one more surprised than Tsipras and Varoufakis. Syriza was hoping to lose the referendum and has no idea what to do now.....which is why Varoufakis has ran for his life lol.

          Tsipras and Varoufakis called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it. The plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, resign (as Varoufakis threatened pre vote if yes vote won) leaving it to others to implement the June 25 "ultimatum" and both disappear in the sunset as some heroes that were tough and fought for the country.

          Varoufakis got it his way...and resigned anyway
          Whats more mind boggling is he has dumped his country in a more difficult situation thanks to his push for no vote...and Greeks are making him out to be some hero anyway
          This theory may be true, but it is difficult to state conclusively. Varoufakis resigned because he would not bargain with the troika, and to show good faith in future negotiations, Tsipras asked him to resign.

          An argument can be made --and I think it more logical -- is that the Greek government and people are not stupid as people think they are. The Greeks understand they can play ball with the West, and indeed challenge the West, because of Russia.

          Greece is broke and in serious trouble, but it holds the cards, as the US and EU cannot afford to allow a Russian foot in South Eastern Europe.

          Comment

          • Philosopher
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1003

            Greece And The EU Situation

            Paul Craig Roberts

            I doubt that there will be a Greek exit.

            The Greek referendum, in which the Greek government’s position easily prevailed, tells the troika (EU Commission, European Central Bank, IMF, with of course Washington as the puppet master) that the Greek people support their government’s position that the years of austerity to which Greece has been subjected has seriously worsened the debt problem. The Greek government has been trying to turn the austerity approach into reforms that would lessen the debt burden via a rise in employment, GDP, and tax revenues.

            The first response of most EU politicians to the Greek referendum outcome was to bluster about Greece exiting Europe. Washington is not prepared for this to happen and has told its vassals to give the Greeks a deal that they can accept that will keep them within the EU.

            Washington has a higher interest than the interests of the US financial interests who purchased discounted sovereign debt with a view toward profiting from a deal that pays 100 cents on the dollar. Washington also has higher interest than the interests of the European One Percent intent on using Greece’s indebtedness to loot the country of its national assets. Washington’s higher interest is the protection of the unity of the EU and, thereby, NATO, Washington’s mechanism for bringing conflict to Russia.

            If the inflexible Germans were to have Greece booted from the EU, Greece’s turn to Russia and financial rescue would put the same idea in the heads of Italy and Spain and perhaps ultimately France. NATO would unravel as Southern Europe became members of Russia’s Eurasian trade bloc, and American power would unravel with NATO.

            This is simply unacceptable to Washington.

            If reports are correct, Victoria Nuland has already paid a visit to the Greek prime minister and explained to him that he is neither to leave the EU or cozy up to the Russians or there will be consequences, polite language for overthrow or assassination. Indeed, the Greek prime minister probably knows this without need of a visit.

            I conclude that the “Greek debt crisis” is now contained. The IMF has already adopted the Greek government’s position with the release of the IMF report that it was a mistake from the beginning to impose austerity on Greece. Pressured by this report and by Washington, the EU Commission and European Central Bank will now work with the Greek government to come up with a plan acceptable to Greece.

            This means that Italy, Spain, and Portugal can also expect more lenient treatment.

            The losers are the looters who intended to use austerity measures to force these countries to transfer national assets into private hands. I am not implying that they are completely deterred, only that the extent of the plunder has been reduced.

            As I have previously written, the Greek “debt crisis” was an orchestration from the beginning. The European Central Bank is printing 60 billion euros per month, and at any time during the “crisis” the ECB could have guaranteed the solvency of any remaining creditor banks by purchasing their holdings of Greek debt, just as the Federal Reserve purchased the troubled mortgage backed “securities” held by the “banks too big to fail.” This easy solution was not taken.

            The orchestration was a benefit to Western financial interests in general by enabling enormous speculations on the euro and gambling with derivative bets on sovereign debt and everything connected to it. Each successive “crisis,” such as Sunday’s No vote, became cover for an attack on oil or other commodities. The rigging and manipulation of markets can be hidden by pointing fingers at the latest “crisis.”

            John Perkins in his book, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, describes the process by which Western financial interests intentionally over-lend to weaker countries and then use the pressure of the debt to force the transfer of the countries’ wealth, and often sovereignty, to the West. The IMF and its austerity programs have long played a role in the looting.

            In exchange for reducing euro debt on Greece’s books, Greece was to turn over to private interests its water companies, ports, and protected islands. Unless the One Percent can purchase the current Greek government as it purchased previous governments (for example, with payoffs to borrow money with which to purchase submarines), the referendum has frustrated the looters.

            In my book, The Failure of Laissez Faire Capitalism, I explained that the Greek “debt crisis” had two other purposes. One was to get rid of the practice of restructuring a country’s debt by writing it down to a level the country could afford and to establish in its place the new principle that people of a country are responsible for the mistakes of creditors who over-lend. The write-down is no longer to occur on the balance sheet of the creditors’ but instead becomes a write-down of pensions, social services, and employment. This, too, is a process of looting.

            The other purpose, as Jean-Claude Trichet, the previous head of the European Central Bank, made explicitly clear, was to further reduce the sovereignty of member states of the EU by transferring authority over fiscal policy (tax and spend decisions) from national governments to the EU in Brussels.

            Washington favors this centralization of political power in Europe, and Washington favors the One Percent over the people. However, above all Washington favors its own power and has acted to prevent a Greek exit, which could begin the unraveling of NATO.

            Russia and China have missed an opportunity to begin the unraveling of NATO by assisting Greece’s departure from the EU. Whatever the cost, it would be tiny in comparison to the military buildup that Washington is forcing on both countries. Russia and China might have decided that Washington could no more accept Greece’s alignment with Russia than Russia can accept Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.

            If the Greek situation and the waiting Italian and Spanish situations are now resolved along the lines that this article suggests, it means that the NATO mechanism for Washington’s pressure on Russia remains intact and that the conflict that Washington has created will continue. This is the bad news and the downside of Greece’s victory over the looters.

            Comment

            • Philosopher
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1003

              Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
              No one more surprised than Tsipras and Varoufakis. Syriza was hoping to lose the referendum and has no idea what to do now.....which is why Varoufakis has ran for his life lol.

              Tsipras and Varoufakis called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it. The plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, resign (as Varoufakis threatened pre vote if yes vote won) leaving it to others to implement the June 25 "ultimatum" and both disappear in the sunset as some heroes that were tough and fought for the country.

              Varoufakis got it his way...and resigned anyway
              Whats more mind boggling is he has dumped his country in a more difficult situation thanks to his push for no vote...and Greeks are making him out to be some hero anyway
              Here is something along those lines.

              Call it game theory gone horribly chaos theory.

              It all started with a report by the Telegraph's Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, whose release of on the record comments by Yanis Varoufakis (which we noted was rather surprising) that Greece was contemplating a parallel currency and potentially nationalizing Greek banks over the weekend, was supposedly the catalyst that got the Greek finmin fired. As a reminder, this is what Varoufakis told AEP on Sunday night: "If necessary... issue parallel liquidity and California-style IOU's, in an electronic form. We should have done it a week ago." And this is what the WSJ said on Monday morning:

              ... the premier decided to act after Mr. Varoufakis told a U.K. newspaper late Sunday that Greece might introduce a parallel currency and electronic IOUs similar to those issued previously in California. Mr. Varoufakis quickly backtracked on his comments to the Daily Telegraph, but his prime minister had had enough, the people familiar with the matter say.
              The Greek prime minister never intended to win.

              Moments ago, we got confirmation of just that, when in another surprising twist it was again the Telegraph's Evans-Pritchard who reported that the Greek prime minister who decisively and unexpectedly pushed for a referendum on the last weekend of June, "never expected to win Sunday's referendum on EMU bail-out terms, let alone to preside over a blazing national revolt against foreign control."

              He got just that, and in a landslide vote at that even though "he called the snap vote with the expectation - and intention - of losing it."

              Also according to the Telegraph, "the plan was to put up a good fight, accept honourable defeat, and hand over the keys of the Maximos Mansion, leaving it to others to implement the June 25th "ultimatum" and suffer the opprobrium."

              He had good reason: according to another Varoufakis quote provided by AEP, "[the Troika] just didn't want us to sign. They had already decided to push us out." In other words, as we speculated in mid-June, the only question was who gets stuck with the blame, and when Tsipras called the referendum, he made it quite easy for Europe; it was even easier when Greece collectively voted "Oxi" to a referendum spun in Europe as one whether or not to remain in the Eurozone.

              There is more: with Tsipras having already checked out it was a case of "after me, the flood"

              This ultimatum came as shock to the Greek cabinet. They thought they were on the cusp of a deal, bad though it was. Mr Tsipras had already made the decision to acquiesce to austerity demands, recognizing that Syriza had failed to bring about a debtors' cartel of southern EMU states and had seriously misjudged the mood across the eurozone.

              But it is what happened next that took everyone by surprise: "Syriza called the referendum. To their consternation, they won, igniting the great Greek revolt of 2015, the moment when the people finally issued a primal scream, daubed their war paint, and formed the hoplite phalanx."

              Suddenly the stakes are even higher for Tsipras, who is "now trapped by his success." According to Costas Lapavitsas, a Syriza MP, "the referendum has its own dynamic. People will revolt if he comes back from Brussels with a shoddy compromise."

              Comment

              • Philosopher
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1003

                Amphipolis, what is the local chatter? What is the Greek media reporting? Is it widely circulated that the Greek PM never intended to win the referendum, that it was a way to save face, and blame the Greek nation?

                What is the story behind the finance minister resigning?

                Any insider information?

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  The Eu doesn't want Greece to fall out of the euro but they also have no choice but to let it happen if Greece doesn't agree to their terms.

                  They can't give Greece any debt relief because then Spain and Portugal will want the same, and they are much bigger economies.

                  The EU knew it would come to this eventually but they just wanted to buy themselves some time, which they have over the last 3 years. They are in much better shape to let Greece go now then they were before.

                  Greece will cave at the last minute and accept what ever terms Europe offers. Of the two players Greece has much more to lose and has literally no options. Greeks are as usual being delusional thinking they can have it all their own way and remain in the euro, which frankly is not going to happen.

                  Tomorrow Greece will present some kind of offer, and Europe might slightly soften their previous demands, Greece will accept, and the can will get kicked down the road for another year or two. Sooner or later Greece will default. The debt levels they have can never be fixed with olives and tourism.

                  Europe just wants to deleverage themselves as best they can for when the inevitable happens.

                  Comment

                  • Stojacanec
                    Member
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 809

                    The referendum is viewed as irrelevant by Europe as greece will have no choice but to meet the creditors demands.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      Yes good point but the eu is coming with some kind of short term rescue package.Its not going to change things the rest is upto the greeks the more they buck the system the more woefull results.Greece didn't help itself with the no vote.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        I can't see how Greece can continue with the Euro currency. Nor can I see any chance of debt servicing. I just don't know what it means to keep a broke country on your list of debtors. Perhaps it is the only reason they will stay in. I hope Macedonia takes notice.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          It just doesn't make sense.The creditors have to bend for the debtor and its unheard of.But the greeks think just because they are in the eu the eu should simply forgive the debt.Its all too silly for words,I would love to see what the agreement is to let Greece get the packageag with no strings on the loan in the first place surely if you don't have the collateral or the ability to service the debt why give that loan.Its all too comical and the joke is on Greece.Serously you don't think Greece will service any part of the loan austerity or not it just doesn't have the money.What people have been saying that the money will come from tourism?the money is just not there.It all has gone horribly wrong for Greece and the eu.There is no way creditors can come up with a rescue packageTHe greeks want a rescue package that they can live with without sacrificing anythithng you got to be kidding..If the creditors don't understand the greek gruesome behaviour they never will.
                          They have simply swindled the eu of the money that's criminal and its not just Greece irs iraly ,spain etc.Remember how originally it was for a 30 billion dollars about what the greek budget was ?? correct me on this they got swinled out of 300 billion which is like the budget of australias yearly budget.The eu or imf was swindled by the likes of golden saxe bank and some brilliant economist Fabio ?from Italy who helped already other countries get loans the can't dream of paying back.Its all too criminal for words.Why would you get into a loan of stupendous proportions you can't pay any of it back.You don't have the capacity to pay it or even the interest???
                          Last edited by George S.; 07-09-2015, 10:29 AM.
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Gocka
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 2306

                            Looks like Greeks are politically stupider than even Macedonians! Apparently the deal they finally submitted is harsher than the one the referendum voted no on, go figure. This is probably why the finance minister quit.



                            Greece news live: Markets surge on news of Tsipras's climbdown as Greeks propose much harsher austerity deal

                            Deal looks to be more severe than the proposal rejected by Sunday's referendum and - crucially - there is no mention of debt sustainability

                            Comment

                            • JJAskiz
                              Banned
                              • May 2015
                              • 101

                              Drachma not Euro.

                              Originally posted by George S. View Post
                              Greek Referendum: Drachma or Euro

                              Saturday, 27 June 2015



                              Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said that a referendum on whether to accept an accord for a new bailout with its creditors will be held on July 5.

                              Greeks will be asked to give a simple "yes" or "no" vote on whether they will accept tax rises and pension cuts amounting to 8 billion Euros that the EU, ECB, and IMF have set as a condition for desperately needed bailouts to keep the debt-stricken country afloat.

                              "After five months of hard negotiations our partners, unfortunately, ended up making a proposal that was an ultimatum towards Greeks democracy and the Greek people," Tsipras said in a televised address to the nation. "We have been presented with an ultimatum, and it is the historic responsibility of our country and people to answer this ultimatum."

                              Earlier in the day, Tsipras held an urgent cabinet meeting.

                              In his televised address, he also said that an extraordinary session of Greece’s parliament is due to discuss holding of the bailout deal referendum on Saturday.

                              German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande as well as the ECB chief have already been informed of the plan, Tsipras added.

                              Greek Deputy Prime Minister Yannis Dragasakis and the country’s Deputy Foreign Minister Euclid Tsakalotos will hold a meeting with European Central Bank President Mario Draghi on Saturday, the prime minister’s press service said.

                              The meeting on Greece's debt settlement scheduled for Saturday, which is expected to finalize months-long intricate negotiations.

                              Athens is currently in talks with its major international creditors — the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the European Union and the European Central Bank (ECB) — seeking to unlock financial aid to avoid a default on its multibillion-dollar debt before the current bailout program expires on June 30.

                              In return for the financial aid, the creditors stipulated that Greece should fulfill certain demands, including austerity measures and cuts in social benefits, continuous monitoring of the Greek economy by the lenders and unpopular economic reforms.
                              Apparently some businesses that are still up and running in Hell Ass are already issuing receipts in Drachma not Euro so I think that is a sign that Hell Ass will default on their debt and leave the Eurozone but may not leave the EU because UK is in the EU and still uses the pound not the Euro so I think Hell Ass can be in the EU and still use the Drachma after they default on their debt.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                Welcome aboard JJaskizz.Youre right and I heard that the priminister was saying to busineses that have them in Macedonia that they were going to pull the rug from under Macedonia.With threats (friends) like that who needs enemies.I don't believe any bailout will work as the greeks aren't taking it seriously.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

                                Comment

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