Yunanistan

[Stojacanec]

Exactly Vangelovski! You also should add Priests to the list next to police.

Also where is Yanani's data about the popluation exchanges between Turkey and New Greece (Aegean Macedonia).

Btw Yunani, don't be offended by the term New Greece because that is what it was called around the time of the population exchange.

[George S.]

Do you know that Macedonians were different to greeks in many ways .Even in the way they fought as well as thought.Before you come on you need to learn that your people tried to put the square peg in the round hole first rather than understand what kind of people Macedonians were.Coming on our forum & telling us were slavs when you are more slav than anyone else.you are a fucking joke be gone .

[Sweet Sixteen]

There was news in the 90s where Albanians tried to start up an Albanian school/university in greece. The greek military came in and put an end to their efforts.

Pardon? I think you're confusing Greece with another country.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Albanians and Greeks have been living next to each other and trading goods for thousands of years.........

Really? How many thousands?

It's because you're practically unknown to them and our disputes are indifferent to them. That excludes your neighbours who may probably have an opinion on all the relevant issues, including recent history, name, identity, language, political implications etc.

It is also because they respect the right of our nation to identify as it chooses based on its own history, which is a quality lacking in most of our neighbours.

It also excludes specific persons, scientists, historians, linguists, politicians, diplomats or amateurs who have followed and studied these topics for various reasons.

The same would apply for most nations in Europe, the only difference here is that Macedonia is surrounded by xenophobic maggots who think that their own opinions about Macedonians are above that of the Macedonians themselves. If Germany or Sweden had the same proportion of deluded morons as Macedonia's neighbours then they would object to names like France and Russia. But sadly, in some cases (such as these), it seems that the further south in Europe one goes, the dumber some people are.

Do you think a Venezuelan would object if you told him there’s a Serbian, a Croatian, a Bosnian and a Montenegrin language? The fact is there’s only one language (which should properly be called Serbian, during Yugoslavia it was called Serbo-Croatian) and the other “languages” are not even 99% the same with Serbian. They’re actually 100% the same.

100% the same? Get your head out of Serbia's arse. All of those languages are closely related and belong to the same family, but they have their own differences, particularly Croatian. If you even had a basic knowledge of these languages you would know this.

[Risto the Great]

I'm trying to answer you without seeming like a racist and staying away from polemic language.

About the Albanians. Let's put it this way.

When I tell you, "Hey RTG, I have money in my bank account!!!!"

Does that tell you I am a billionaire, millionaire, I have hundreds of thousands of dollars, one hundred dollars or $10?

Which is it?

It is $10.

Yes Albanians have become Greek, but how many? If it was of any significant number we would have seen a significant merger in our languages, but in fact I understand many Italian words because I speak Greek, where Albanian is like Chinese to me.

Albanians and Greeks have been living next to each other and trading goods for thousands of years while sustaining culture difference. Racially we are not the same but very close, in fact closer than Greeks are to Cypriots.

Geo-genetics is the science of how a grouping of different populations relates to each other and it is mapped out on an 2D XY axis. Specifically to Europe, a MIT study (Yes, that MIT), took the Swiss as the centre of the European gene pool and created a computer generated map which shows the genetic distance between each ethnicity to all others. Take a look. Perhaps you can point out for me where the "Slavic Invasion" starts and stops.

Our language, culture, and racial makeup validates who we are. THIS DOES NOT IN ANYWAY MAKE GREEKS BETTER OR WORSE THAT ANY OTHER PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET.

I'll not write about this sh@t again, because it is very distasteful to my sense of treating people based on their character. Their are people in Greece which will take information like this to justify division, prejudice and extremism which harms all Greek interests.

Wow, you're so PC. Let me tell you again. Albanians have become Greek. Your "Arvanites" were Albanians. They were in regions of Greece that were entirely unpopulated. They were there in the tens of thousands. 30,000 Albanians lived in the Peloponnese in the 15th century. Where are they now? Many others have done it to. Feel free to develop formulas to disprove it. Or just accept it and move on.

[George S.]

well you are spilling the beans on your govt who claimed there are the greek population is homogenous,pure greek.But we know better there's hardly any real greeks left. Whils't Greece has been questioning other races like Macedonian but they are in a worse off situation.Its a sorry state of affairs.Their very existence is very shaky to say the least.They haven't been actually telling the truth.
I read somewhere that there may be upto 3 million Albanians living in Greece that's a pretty sizable amount.

[Yunanistan]

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) is a private research university in Cambridge, Massachusetts known traditionally for research and education in the physical sciences and engineering, and more recently in biology, economics, linguistics, and management as well.

well you are spilling the beans on your govt who claimed there are the greek population is homogenous,pure greek.But we know better there's hardly any real greeks left. Whils't Greece has been questioning other races like Macedonian but they are in a worse off situation.Its a sorry state of affairs.Their very existence is very shaky to say the least.They haven't been actually telling the truth.
I read somewhere that there may be upto 3 million Albanians living in Greece that's a pretty sizable amount.

George,

Did you look at the MIT Geo-Genetic mapping? Did you see how "BG" (Bulgari) and "MK" (Makedonci) are next to each other? Did you see the distance that exists to the "AL" (Shqiptar) and the opposite side is "GR" (Élli̱nes)?

It serves your purpose to see Shqiptars as an empty vessel in which a Hellenic culture can be poured into.

Balkan Populations 1800
Élli̱nes 4.5 Million - Shqiptar 0.5 Million

Revolts
The Orlov Revolt (1770) was a precursor to the Greek War of Independence (1821), which saw a Greek uprising in the Peloponnese at the instigation of Count Orlov,
...
The economic ascent of Thessaloniki and of the other urban centres of Macedonia coincided with the cultural and political renaissance of the Greeks
...
Nevertheless, the revolt spread from Central to Western Macedonia, from Olympus to Pieria and Vermion. In the autumn of 1821, Nikolaos Kasomoulis was sent to southern Greece as the "representative of South-East Macedonia", and met Demetrius Ypsilantis.

Massacres
The war was characterized by a lack of respect for civilian life and prisoners of war on both sides of the conflict. Turkish, Albanian, Greeks, and Jewish populations identified with the Ottomans inhabiting the Peloponnese suffered massacres particularly where Greek forces were dominant, while massacres of Greeks took place especially in Ionia, Crete, Constantinople, Macedonia and the Aegean islands.[1] Settled Turkish, Albanian, Greeks, and smaller Jewish communities in the Peloponnese were destroyed, and settled Greek communities in the Aegean, Crete, Central and Southern Greece were wiped out.[2][3]

Expulsions
The expulsion of Cham Albanians from Greece was a forced emigration of thousands of Cham Albanians after the Second World War to Albania, by the Resistance National Republican Greek League (EDES) forces. The EDES and the Joint Allied Military Mission in the Axis-occupied Greece accused the Chams for collaborating with the German Nazis and Italian Fascists during the war. A part of the Cham population had collaborated with the Axis troops and committed atrocities against the local Greek populaces, such as the massacres in Paramythia,

As I said before. The Shqiptar have been our neighbours for thousands of year and they are closest to us genetically. I'm posting objective scientific evidence and it speaks for itself on who are the Ellines, Shqiptar and Makedonci.

While you George post unsubstantiated claims with words like "I read somewhere...". How can I take you seriously?

"..may be upto 3 million Albanians living in Greece"

Albania's current total population is 3 million people not just Shqiptars, all of them.


George, this is the last post of yours that I will answer.

[Sweet Sixteen]

100% the same? Get your head out of Serbia's arse. All of those languages are closely related and belong to the same family, but they have their own differences, particularly Croatian. If you even had a basic knowledge of these languages you would know this.

I don't speak the languages myself (it's possible that you do) but I would appreciate it if you could give sources that support what you said. I also understand that giving numbers for similarities is not easy, but it helps very much. I'll start with two interesting diagrams.

That describes the (lexical) distance between Serbian and Croatian as practically zero, same between Bulgarian and Macedonian. It also suggests a divergence between Bulgarian/Macedonian and Serbian/Croatian between 25-35%, probably slightly above 25%.



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This one puts Macedonian equally between Serbian and Bulgarian (related 85% to each) and doesn't even consider Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin as languages (it's from 1994). It also gives a distance (divergence) between Serbian and Bulgarian around 20%.



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This is also interesting. I couldn't figure out what the numbers mean (use zoom).

[George S.]

yuni here we go it serves our purpose.I caould call you a fucking shiptar because you are so close & cosy.WE have in relity nothing in common with the Bulgarians they are tartars mostly that's very odd.But you are definitely a ship tar,

[Sweet Sixteen]

I read somewhere that there may be upto 3 million Albanians living in Greece that's a pretty sizable amount.

According to the latest census (2011) there are 480,000 Albanians in Greece or 4,5%. They were 430,000 (3,9%) in 2001.

At the moment their number is reducing, due to the economic crisis many of them are leaving. The above numbers include everyone coming from Albania (legal, illegal, legalized or semi-illegal immigrants) including the ethnic-Greeks from Albania.



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[Sweet Sixteen]

There is a big hole in your argument where the neighbours have differing opinions. [...] Not to mention those repective countries have apposing views of history amongst themselves as well - you really haven't added any value to this agrument.

My point was that the neighbors DO have an opinion. How is it differing exactly?

Macedonians are congruent with their opinions of who they are no matter which part of Macedonia proper they originate from.

That obviously isn't so, either between Greek Macedonians and Slav Macedonians or even among the latter.

There are plenty of "specific persons" that have differning opinons to those that are on the greek payroll.

Yes, some of them are in YOUR payroll (e.g. Victor Friedman, Candice Miller etc.)

I regard our language in Australia as Australian and American in America. Do you think if I went to England, I'd be able to navigate myself around?? Please explain.

My point was that the language you speak (the one we use at the moment) is the English language, it should (for various reasons) be properly called the English language, and it will always be the English language regardless if YOU name it Australian and others accept that.

[Sweet Sixteen]

The genetic relatedness between Greeks and Albanians (according to the study that Yunnanistan provided) speaks volumns as to how how many Albanians became Greeks and accepted the Greek language through a very successful annd brutal nation-building process that began in the late 19th century and continues even today.

I can't see anything impressive in this diagram as it basically says the genetic relatedness is exactly the same as geographic proximity. Anything different would be interesting.

The only weird thing (a mistake?): what the hell is Slovakia (SK brownish-orange) doing down there (below Italy and Greece)?
I suspect someone has messed data referring to Sicily (which is often studied separately)?


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[Yunanistan]

I can't see anything impressive in this diagram as it basically says the genetic relatedness is exactly the same as geographic proximity. Anything different would be interesting.

The only weird thing (a mistake?): what the hell is Slovakia (SK brownish-orange) doing down there (below Italy and Greece)?
I suspect someone has messed data referring to Sicily (which is often studied separately)?


===

The problem with most amateur assessments of this superficial data is that they look for absolute genetic separation to justify any claims to ones own ethnic heritage. Shqitars and Ellines have much in common genetically, but that does not meaning wholesale and broad based intermingling, but rather thousands of years of simply being in the same region, so many years to the point that one of those neighbours may have been the Neanderthals. The fact is our continuing separate linguistic and cultural differences proves that we are different people.

If I could speak to a Shqitar in my language with no need of any translation, then the arguments of us being a different people would be dubious.

[George S.]

SSyunistani you are both misinformed on many issues.Stop trying to take up the cudgel for your country & make silly apologies etc .Its not going to work on us.Your comments regarding the serbo croat language is misinformed.If you know or disagree tell us which language was ignored.?Which language influenced the serbs & croats most.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't speak the languages myself.......

That's right, you don't, and there are plenty of people that would take exception to your suggestion that Croatian should be called Serbian. Such a perception wreaks of bigotry and is to be expected from some deluded ultra-nationalist Serbs or their Greek lackeys. If you are neither, then you should become more informed on the subject before stating such rubbish.

........I would appreciate it if you could give sources that support what you said. I also understand that giving numbers for similarities is not easy, but it helps very much. I'll start with two interesting diagrams.

All Balkan Slavic languages form part of a large continuum that progressively differ from each other according to proximity. While there are characteristics which generally define them into western and eastern groups, there are even more which further define them as separate dialects and languages. Macedonians may find it easier to understand the local dialect of Sofia, but would find it very difficult to understand eastern Bulgarian dialects on which standard Bulgarian is based. Similarly, a Croat speaking the native dialect of Zagreb would be better understood by a Slovene than a Serb from the Nish. What I am stating is supported by fact, not some diagrams that represent broad overviews which don't go into specifics or consider pronunciation, accent, sound changes, etc. All of this has an impact on mutual intelligibility. It is a complex issue and I can't just provide you a few sources, although there are plenty of them on the net if you are interested to learn more. What I would suggest to you is not to be swept away by the concept of 'pluricentric languages' which can be misleading and easily manipulated by ignorant or deceitful people.