How do Macedonians across the Macedonian Region perceive the other?

[Dejan]

What's a slav? Where do they come from?

[Vangelovski]

Macedonians because we live in the region called Macedonia for hundreds of years and we are Slavs

This is the first time I've heard this particular iteration...sounds like a greek invention to me.

[lavce pelagonski]

Yuni Yuni Yuni. This is the mistake many Greeks such as yourselves make, you call us Slavs as a way to distinguish us from your fantasy Macedonians you made up with your Christian Turkish population you acquired after the great exchange.

You are forgetting if we have "Slav" blood so do you. The Peloponnese was full of them and you still have names for villages that are Slavic sounding.


What part of Grcija do you come from?
Do you believe that the Greeks are pure with an unbroken line to the Ancient city states?
How do you feel about your Greek priests working together with your beloved Ottoman Turks in cutting the heads off of Macedonian revolutionaries. Not very Orthodox I must say.

[Risto the Great]

Yuni, do you deny some Greeks changed their religion to Islam in Ottoman times? Why did they do it? What is the difference here?

Oh, you still haven't told me about the legitimacy of southern Greeks as compared to northern Greeks. Is that too close to the bone for you? Have you been to a soccer match in Greece where supporters of certain teams in Greece are called "Bulgarians"? It sounds terrible. Oh my goodness! It strikes at the very heart of your Greek identity. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about here?

[George S.]

yuni there is no such thing as slav Macedonian it was so decided for in the court of law in Victoria.THe slav prefix was a derogatory term designed to degrade an identity .Macedonian by calling them slav Macedonian or slavophone.So you aren't allowed to smear our name anywhich way you can./So calling us slav is racist.Greece hides the fact that there are real Macedonians not the greek fake ones.you have been warned.THe only influence slavs had on us is a small linguistic one & not the renaming as the greeks tried to claim.They have just gone too far.

[Yunanistan]

yuni there is no such thing as slav Macedonian it was so decided for in the court of law in Victoria.THe slav prefix was a derogatory term designed to degrade an identity .Macedonian by calling them slav Macedonian or slavophone.

My use of the of the term "Slavs" in reference to a Macedonian identity is held by Politicians and Authors from the Republic of Macedonia. As part of Yugoslavia, prior to 1991, you would know better than I that the name "Yugoslavia" references all citizens as "Slavs".

Etymology - Yugoslavia
Borrowing from Serbo-Croatian Jugoslavija, in turn from jugo (“south”) and slavija (“slavia, the land of the Slavs”).
Literally, the land of the southern Slavs.

The partisans in Greece used the term "Slavo" as a prefix to Makedonski to name their own division within the communist in Macedonia.

WWII
Славјаномакедонски Народно Ослободителен Фронт (СНОФ)

I don't see it, nor do I intend it as derogatory, but as I have stated before, this is your forum, your rules.

[George S.]

you are making it up as you go.I just told you your govt insisted that Macedonians in Australia be referred as slavs .A court of law decided that slav is not an identifier.that the name "Yugoslavia" references all citizens as "Slavs". Wrong the slav statement is all to to do with the serbs.This was their propaganda they tried to spread & suppress the Macedonian identity.It basically told the Macedonians they should be proud with their Slavic roots and not with their Macedonian identity.Basically the serbs dictated the Macedonians their behaviour as long as they were part of Yugoslavia.So you are utterly wrong in your interpretation.Whatever is written was pure propaganda.
But on the other side of the coin there is no Slavic roots as such its a propaganda the Macedonians are related to their ancient Macedonian roots As I said I have written in other threads that the influence was a slight linguistic one.THAT does not change the identity of a people.
Undenialble fact that the slavs also went to hellas.If you applied the same logic then all of hellas must be Slavic as well.Not only that but the whole Balkan area must be Slavic .Your logic is wrong.Thoroughout 2 mileniums & as well as under turkey what was the land called Macedonia.In many texts the land as a whole & people are referred as Macedonians not slavs.Also the serbs within the confines of the Yugoslavia referred to the land as Macedonian & its people Macedonian Only used propaganda to keep the Macedonians at bay & within the confines.It kept Greece happy for years.YOu should know how the 1912 Balkan wars allowed Greece to landgrab of 51% of Macedonia.
Grece used this sort ofpropaganda of paranoia & denial,ridicule etc to basically say that we are only slavs & not Macedonians. All the countries that annexed Macedonia had their own brand of propaganda.You have admitted to some that your greek govt did.
Greeks held a long time resentment for being under Macedonian rule.In other words today they are quite happy to appropriate anything Macedonian but forget how much they resented Macedonian rule & hatred for the Macedonians who were a different race of people to the greeks.

[Yunanistan]

So I'm here to talk about the regional character of Macedonians as for example the language.

Encyclopedia Britannica

There are three main dialect groups: (1) the northern dialects, similar to the neighbouring Serbian dialects, (2) the eastern dialects, similar to and gradually shading into Bulgarian, and (3) the western dialects, most distinct from Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian

The above would have been something interesting to talk about, but I'll answer your question.

Yuni, do you deny some Greeks changed their religion to Islam in Ottoman times? Why did they do it? What is the difference here?

I think that your point is that if the Greeks changed their religion to Islam to become Turk,... no I need some help here and I think it has something to do with the Albanians, right?




I'll try to answer this without your input on my confusion of what your asking, and I'm assuming that it is about the Albanian influence on Greeks.

Year 2011 Albanian current population 3 million

Albanian Christians
Catholicism......Orthodoxy......Other Christian
10.03%.............6.75%..........0.14%

Percentage of Greeks in Albania 3% to 6% = 180,000 "max"

Year 1800 Albanian Population Approx 400,000 x 3% to 6% (Orthodox) = 24,000 max
Year 1821 Greek Population 4.5 Million

Total Albanian Orthodox population year 1821 is 24,000 divided by Greek population of 4.5 Million = 0.5% Max Albanian Orthodox influence on Geek pop year 1821

Oh, you still haven't told me about the legitimacy of southern Greeks as compared to northern Greeks. Is that too close to the bone for you? Have you been to a soccer match in Greece where supporters of certain teams in Greece are called "Bulgarians"? It sounds terrible. Oh my goodness! It strikes at the very heart of your Greek identity. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about here?

No, that is not what I'm talking about. The scenario is completely different to a calm discussion between two people of differing ethnicity while one speaks of their own.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

The point that I was looking to explore was originally sparked by the young girl I wrote about, This is no lie. Macedonians are bombarded by a barrage of data, fact or lies make of it what you want, and that due to this one could see perhaps this girl's view as possibly being true. This potential does not take from your identity anything, and if you chose call her misguide or a traitor that is your call.

I'd say that if your story about this girl holds any shred of truth, then she is simply misguided. The territorial division of Macedonians can often leave people confused, which is why they really need to conduct some research before they make a judgement call on something. For example, if a Macedonian child identifies as Macedonian and speaks Macedonian, it could be rather daunting for them to find that their family is from a village or city that is not within the current borders of the Republic. That's why education is vital, as they need to know why it is so, how, when, etc.

So how does one deal with a 'grkomani' or if there is a Bulgarian version of that these people and they are still your people, do they exist in the Republic or only in the Florina region? If Bulgarian versions of this type of person exists, are they in the eastern part of the republic or are they only in the Pirin of Bulgaria?

It's difficult to tell, but most grkomani would be from the Aegean region of Macedonia and in the diaspora. Yes, there is a Bulgarian version, and similarly a version for every other foreign entity that attempted (and in some cases succeeded) in assimilating the Macedonian population in their respective 'new territories.' It's to no surprise that you find these people in the particular area where a brutal assimilation policy was planned and implemented.

These "grkomani", do they all see the identity the same way, or is it possible for a grkomani to think the same way about Greeks as you do, but also extended that view to those in the republic, but with less of a severity?

From personal experience, most of the grkomani I've come across tend to be very two faced. They will display Macedonian traits on some occasions, and Greek traits on others. It really depends on the crowd they are with, but for the most part it is evident that they are lone rangers. They are trying to be something they are not (Greek), and often this leaves them stuck in the middle, not fully accepted/acknowledged by either Macedonians or Greeks. Fellow Macedonians know that these people are Macedonians, but it is often difficult to trust somebody who doesn't even trust themselves. The older generations are intentionally being something they are not. However, the younger generations of these particular people would be indifferent and can't really be blamed directly.

The second part of your question is mutually exclusive. They can't be an outright grkoman, yet possess the same kind of mindset displayed here.

These threats and others to your identity are being discussed in RoM newspapers. This debate is happening, so how would your group think that I'm fabricating all this to cause havoc amongst you?

Of course the Macedonian identity is under threat. All you have to do is go on youtube and on almost every Macedonian video there will be a Greek internet warrior mouthing off. All this tells me is that they are insecure about their own identity. People who are at peace with their identity and the notion of self-determination do not dedicate their spare time to denigrate the identity of others. In the case of Macedonians, we are forced to defend ourselves and bite back. But regardless of where we may think Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbians, etc may come from and who they really are, at the end of the day we still respect their right to identify as such.

As for the Bulgarian passport issue, it's simply another tactic adopted by the Bulgarian authorities to try and claim that Macedonians are Bulgarians. This kind of stunt links back to the assimilation policies discussed earlier, the difference being that this has been orchestrated in a far more subtle way, and also targets the Republic.

Picking up on your point here. Yes, I agree it does occur all over the globe, including in Greece. I'll tell you a little story. I was in chios and the main town is as if they cutout a piece of downtown Athens and plunked it on the island. Busy and noisy, I was glad that we were staying in a village on the other side of the island. Let's call it X I can't remember the real name. The people of X told me that the main town is a mess and too busy for a human beings to live in and full of foreigners, this village (X) is civilized.
While traveling by car in the mountains of Chios, we came to a village of 20 homes and during our coffee, the villagers there told us that village X where we were staying was too busy and noisy and a lousy place to live, and that it was crammed with people from other islands.

It is the same everywhere, however the difference here E Makedonia is your identity, language, and history is being challenged, not by one neighbouring country, but two and one of which is offering citizenship. So the stress of sustaining your identity is great. The potential of the youth seeing themselves in a differing light is real no matter what you may think of me.

Again, I think this just reflects poorly on the maturity of these particular countries. Apart from those select few nations, nobody else is challenging the Macedonian identity, quite the opposite actually. The identity, language and history of the Greek nation could equally be challenged (and has/is), yet nobody else is claiming to be a Greek. On the other hand, we have Greeks stamping their authority on every second thing on the planet.
Put simply, these two nations you've described have an agenda. They have political interests in denying the Macedonian identity, language and history. For them to do otherwise, would essentially entail them to acknowledge that they have occupied foreign land, have committed atrocities against the Macedonian people, and have fabricated lie after lie designed to deny people the basic right to self-determination. It's easier to sweep this all under the carpet as these nations have and continue to do so, as opposed to owning up and facing the consequences. I can understand why to an extent, but everything that goes around comes around. It really is selfish behaviour to be perfectly honest. The direct victims of these crimes against humanity will be long gone before any kind of acknowledgement or apology is made.

I gave the example of Petar Kolev and the young girl I wrote of, one from Stip and the other diaspora from Florina. Two different worlds of experience. I think it would be the deep commonalities that they may see in each other experience which would reinforce their sense of being Macedonian. But it would have to strike true to them deeper than the name itself. This is why language is most cases is critical to forming ethnic bonds.

Language is essential, which is why the modern generations from different regions of Macedonia may potentially feel disconnected from each other. Although as English is now more or less a universal language, these language barriers have diminished. However, that does not negate the importance of language as an aspect of culture and self-identification, which is why it is heartening to now see Macedonian being taught to Macedonians in other regions of Macedonia, and throughout the world for that matter.

I am an outside to your community and I am stepping outside of my regular mindset secure in the fact that I lose nothing in doing so. Something that is lacking with most of the members here and if that attitude prevails in your general society your youth will be given little if anything with which to defend their identity.

Here's hoping that those who attack our identity grow some sense by then. At this rate though, they will have little, if anything left to attack our identity with.
It's a natural 'fight-flight' response. If you attack our identity, we are going to sense a threat. In the case of Macedonians though, we prefer to fight our case.
Your mindset extends beyond your own identity and discriminates against the identity of others. That's why you lose nothing by stepping outside of your mindset, because at the end of the day the only ground you may lose with that attitude is that for which you have attacked. Your identity is still in the background and away from the spotlight in such discussions. If you expect us to have the same attitude when others are attacking our identity, then we will only be conceding ground for which we rightfully own and are defending. The two perspectives aren't comparable.

Just think about for one moment, how ignorant it really is to tell somebody else who and what they are. If you give it a few good minutes of deep thought, it really should strike your mind.

[Yunanistan]

...
Your mindset extends beyond your own identity and discriminates against the identity of others. That's why you lose nothing by stepping outside of your mindset, because at the end of the day the only ground you may lose with that attitude is that for which you have attacked. Your identity is still in the background and away from the spotlight in such discussions. If you expect us to have the same attitude when others are attacking our identity, then we will only be conceding ground for which we rightfully own and are defending. The two perspectives aren't comparable. (very astute)

Just think about for one moment, how ignorant it really is to tell somebody else who and what they are. If you give it a few good minutes of deep thought, it really should strike your mind.

Not saying I agree with everything you write, and I'm sure you realized already by what I write that I'm a hardcore Greek, but I greatly appreciate your introspective expression. We are no militarily threat of one to the other, nor would I wish any military conflict between you and the Albanians. I was not asking anyone here to concede anything only to discussion your country. As for example, you language. There are regional differences as I have found out from Britannica and please don't tell me that is Greek propaganda.

...

I thinking this exercise is failing miserably and the possibility of causal discussion on the character of the Republic of Macedonia and the people will always have degenerate.

Too bad.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Not saying I agree with everything you write, and I'm sure you realized already by what I write that I'm a hardcore Greek, but I greatly appreciate your introspective expression. We are no militarily threat of one to the other, nor would I wish any military conflict between you and the Albanians. I was not asking anyone here to concede anything only to discussion your country. As for example, you language. There are regional differences as I have found out from Britannica and please don't tell me that is Greek propaganda.

...

I thinking this exercise is failing miserably and the possibility of causal discussion on the character of the Republic of Macedonia and the people will always have degenerate.

Too bad.

Of course there are regional differences in the language. It's called a dialect. But like everything else that you or I have brought up, it exists in almost every country.

I've tried to be reasonable and patient with you, yet I think your lack of transparency is what's suffocating the dialogue. You don't need to break the rules of the forum to stipulate what exactly you want to know and for what particular purpose. So far in my responses I'm uncertain whether I'm answering your questions, because they are incredibly vague and lacking substance. You need to pinpoint the centre of the discussion and its surrounding context if you want answers that you deem to be satisfactory. It still seems like you are fishing for a specific response to suit your 'view' without trying to tread on toes.

Honestly, I'd probably rather you state your true intentions and reasons for joining this forum before you leave (even though others here may disagree and a ban may come your way). At least then we may be able to comprehend what your line of thinking is (regardless or how misguided or ignorant it may be).

I'd strongly advise you to seriously consider my closing remarks in my previous post. I understand you're a 'hardcore Greek,' but any human being should be able to recognise how absurd it is to tell somebody else who they are. Not just from an ethnic point of view, but in a wider social context. If you're able to respect our rules on this forum and our right to identify as Macedonians (without losing anything as you said), then why do you have an issue displaying the same kind of respect in reality?

[Yunanistan]

I'd strongly advise you to seriously consider my closing remarks in my previous post. I understand you're a 'hardcore Greek,' but any human being should be able to recognise how absurd it is to tell somebody else who they are. Not just from an ethnic point of view, but in a wider social context.

See this is the problem right here. I was just hoping to avoid this issue of the name and recognition and conflict this or that. I sincerely study you on a political level, social level, on an inter ethnic level and when I heard of the young girls comment I thought to my self, WTF!!! and then it came to me I don't know about the internals of your nation.

So here I am pulling teeth, having to answer about my Albanian heritage.There is nothing underhanded about it.

If you're able to respect our rules on this forum and our right to identify as Macedonians (without losing anything as you said), then why do you have an issue displaying the same kind of respect in reality?

Excellent question!!!! you seem very educated and skilled at logic.

But if I answer this I'll inflame everyone on this forum and I'll be banned seconds after hit the submit so why go there, can't this be avoided?


Talk to you tomorrow, and thank you very much E Makedonia

[George S.]

YUNI yes the ban question does arise considering our identity and what you feel we are.Despite what you say & do your country doesn't recognize us.Think about it it says all the skopijans(it can't say Macedonia) want is their land back.What is wrong with wanting our land back.Your country is fully aware of the recent 100 years history of how it occupied Macedonia.It's not that Greece doesn't know but behind it it has to make amends & really doesn't.It isn't going to do anything unless the world community forces them to do it.Think about how the greeks think they are going to force the skopijans to change their name.If the Macedonians are stupid enough & do it .It will give Greece undeservedly like the sun symbol,a monopoly over the name.If they can do that then they are unanswerable for holding the Macedonian lands.My idea is that there is no dispute from Macedonia only from Greece we know why.How can the name of a province conflict with the name of a country,Its simply not a dispute at all.Only if Greece insists it is.Only when the greeks get a monopoly on the name it can do what it wants to Macedonia.Remember the land claims on Macedonia aren't really finished Greece was never satisfied with her 1912 share of Macedonia(that's 51 %).

[Vangelovski]

Yunanistan,

As long as you refer to us as Macedonians (without the "your people" or other terminology to avoid writing Macedonians BS) then I don't see a ban coming on.

Its time to get to your point - we've been very patient with you. Ask your questions - be specific. I might even be persuaded to engage in the conversation - something I've avoided in any substance so far because of your vagueness and 'ski' idiocy.

[Risto the Great]

I think that your point is that if the Greeks changed their religion to Islam to become Turk,... no I need some help here and I think it has something to do with the Albanians, right?

No, you are assuming too much. I am saying some Greeks did convert to Islam in Ottoman times. In fact, I contend that those that did convert did it solely for economic benefits. Macedonians have declared as "Bulgarians" for perceived and real economic benefits associated with EU participation.

No, that is not what I'm talking about. The scenario is completely different to a calm discussion between two people of differing ethnicity while one speaks of their own.

You're right. It is completely different. If we go back 100 years, most of the north of Greece was speaking a different language. If we do the same for Macedonians, most of them were speaking the same language. A completely different scenario. We agree.

A pity you didn't think the discussion had merit though. I'm still not convinced you're after real dialogue here.