Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Giorikas]

Originally Posted by Daskalot

Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.

I once called him an old timer and he got really upset by that so I'll be generous one last time.

[Risto the Great]

No no ... "old timer" is far more generous than "cockroach".

But anyway, if you can join the dots Giorikas .... by being funded by Greek organisations to present their research, these professors have a perceived obligation to sign letters as created by Miller. So they were NOT paid to sign the letter, thy have been paid for many years for many different matters. By not signing the letter, they would ensure reduced income streams in the future.

5 replies is the number, I wrote about 8 letters. I certainly did not write to any Greeks (the majority of the signatories) and I certainly did not write to the university of some backwater country. Just the BIG ones.

Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.

An ANALYSIS against some signatures. As I said, some of the signatories are already backing away from the sentiment of that letter. The people I queried said they disagree with Tompkins but when I asked them why, they could not tell me why. I love it. Professors from the highest learning institutions who simply could not admit what was wrong with Tompkins' assessment. Naturally, I am sure you could pick it all to shreds with your higher learning and all.

Now i have found out a second follow up letter exists, I must read it to determine what has changed. Unlike you, I read both sides of the argument.

[Giorikas]

Bravo. We've come a long way.

This is what you wrote originally:

Quote: 'Ummm, I asked the Professors. They were embarrassed if you really want to know. Quite apologetic too. And guess what, they HAVE been paid by the Greek State. And guess why they will not take their names off the list .... because they will CONTINUE to be paid by the Greek State.'

From that quote (suggesting all are embarresed and paid off) we went to a more modest 8 letters sent, 5 replies, un unknown number of those 5 have pro-actively signed a letter because they had a perceived obligation to do so. No pressure, no pay offs. That perceived obligation in itself does not mean that they disagree with the contents per se. Maybe they would find the letter and the fact is was sent to Obama a bit, ehmm, too political. Or maybe they found calling on the US to stop using the name ROM too much. Historians do not do these things normally. Maybe that is the reason why Miller revised the letter later, to accomodate those professors who are now satisfied ? Who knows ?

Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose. Again, I suspect that they found Miller's circus a bit over the top.
You just wrote to the big ones, eh ? Now you're suggesting that apart from the the Ivy Leage universities plus Oxford and Cambridge all are simple backwater universities. Thanks for that, I guess all of us here that did not graduate at Ivy leage or cambridge / Oxford are a bunch of uneducated fools. Of course there are other universities of importance.

Now to be honest, I really don't care too much for that letter even if I find it amusing. The point I was making when discussing with Sovius was that my views are not isolated at all.
How could it be ? Apart from those 342 who signed the letter, there's just about all neigbouring countries with whom there are differences of opinion.
There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline), there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising, with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.

Then there are plenty of Macedonian politicians (and no doubt more to follow) who are labelled as: Racist/sell out/traitor. There is the recently added 'Brat' Ljube, there was Branco Crvenkovski, and many others. Soon Ivanov will be labelled and Gruevski, since they will be forced to do what they need to do to make ROM survive: (a burden that professional Macedonians like yourself do not have to carry) find a solution and take responsibility. Some are saying things that would get me banned immediately here. Such as: That Macedonians are Bulgarians, nothing else then Slav, others say that you are in no way related to anncient Macedonians, and so on, and so on.

Let's not get in to all that now, those things are really debated millions of times. You can do that with someone else. But please do not make make the mistake to assume that my views are the exception to the rule. (regardless who is right in all above examples). Concluding this revealing dialogue:

Whichever name will be negotiated (and we know that ROM or Macedonia will not be the final name), above topics will always remain controversial. You should know that. That is your future: a negotiated and compromised name and much controversy. That is the best case scenario of course. Wishing you a nice day, Risto the Great

[Risto the Great]

Wow, for someone so concerned about the letter and sticking to the point, I am somewhat perplexed with your launch into the Serbian church etc. Was that in the Miller letter?

Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose.

What a stupid argument you have put forward here. The holocaust has the support of public opinion. To deny it would be academic suicide. We are talking about the complete opposite situation. You don't get it do you.

I explained the context in which I used the term "paid off" .... it does not suit you so you carry on with your little dream of cheques in the mail. Why are you so petty about this? Do you think my assessment is unreasonable? I can confirm a professor was paid by the Greek State in the 1990's to spread propaganda about Macedonia. He came to Adelaide and was thoroughly questioned by local Macedonians. His replies were not good enough for the local Greeks so they walked out in disgust. I think they wanted to hear that Alexander only spoke pure modern Greek and was a good Orthodox christian.

The professors who signed that letter were doing something that felt quite reasonable and unoffensive to them. Pulic opinion is in their favour, why shouldn't they do it? Does it mean they are correct?

One of the professors felt that it was inappropriate for modern Macedonians to adopt the many historical symbols of the ancient Hellenes and people like Alexander. I replied using his own words to mention that Alexander had a dubious ethnicity and I then inquired which ancient symbols were being used by modern Macedonians. Noting that only one symbol was being used and that it was prevalent all over the Republic of Macedonia. Guess what .... things got quiet pretty fast.

You know I was quite delighted to recently learn (here) that the Slavs of Morea were divided into two major groups. Thise that were part of the Roman Empire and those that rejected it. Do you think even one person in Greece knows this? Even I only knew about the Slavic tribes that opposed the Romans. How could we have so many slavic placenames in Southern Greece without such dominance? Why is such information so hard to come by? Who would want to know that revised and compromised identity of modern Greeks? Where would funding for research come from? Why would the world favour this new knowledge? Instead I am sure some people even believe the name "Morea" comes from some obscure ancient Greek word. Funny isn't it?

There are reasons why some politicians are labelled as sellouts. They have changed their opinions and complete belief systems. Do they deserve respect from people that followed their previous beliefs? Imagine if Greece got honest with itself about its last 2000 years of history. People like you would perhaps label your own leaders as sellouts and traitors. All part of a good game isn't it.

Thank you for trying to plant your demented seeds of "reason" into this argument. But I understand your objectives all too clearly. Grow up and move forward from your hatred, it is not good for a person. Perhaps it suits pests more though.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline).....

And what exactly was the connection between Alexander the Great and the Albanians of Athens? Oh that's right, nothing. Look here you imbecile, the politicians of mongrel (oops, 'modern') Greece make reference to their so-called 'Hellenic' past almost daily, yet I am still waiting to see Dora Vlakoyanni sacrifice one of her fellow goats at Delphi, let us know how she goes with that.

.....there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising.....

Tsar Samuel, Ilinden, etc, all in Macedonia, today's Macedonians are the cultural, geographic and linguistic descendants of these people. Were we referred to as Bulgarians at some point, were other Slavic-speakers in the Balkans? Sure, if the Italians were as manipulative and confused as today's Greeks and Bulgars, you would be claiming the colonisation of Italy through the 'Grakoi' tribe, lol. Let me know when normality sets in.

....with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.

Hhmm, sounds like a familiar story, and the way you word it, the other Orthodox Churches are "not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox", lol, do they accept it as Catholic? Protestant? Tell me Giorikas, when the Germans created and administered your new "Hellenic Church" during the 19th century, was it recognized as an Orthodox Church or a Church at all by the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Let's not stop there, let's see where the Bulgarised Exarchate was at, after its creation, shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate

The Bulgarian Exarchate (Bulgarian: Българска екзархия Bylgarska ekzarkhia) was the official name of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church before its autocephaly was recognized by the Ecumenical See in 1945 and the Bulgarian Patriarchate was restored in 1953...........

The Exarchate (a de-facto autocephaly) was unilaterally (without the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch).............

........the secession from the Patriarchate was officially condemned by the Council in Constantinople in September 1872 as schismatic.

WOW!!! From its Ottoman-establishment in the 1870's, the autocephaly of the BOC was recognized by the Ecumenical See only in 1945, a good 70-80 years after the fact.

Care to explain why Gorki? Care to explain why you even mentioned the church? What's the matter Gorki, Greeks on their own aren't worthy of comparison to Macedonians? Tell me something I don't know, champ.....

[Risto the Great]

http://www.canada.com/news/asks+Mace...406/story.html

SKOPJE - EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana urged Macedonia Tuesday to cast aside emotions over an 18-year name row with Greece that has frozen the ex-Yugoslav republic's integration into the European bloc.

The name dispute was an "important issue that has to be solved, and I asked everybody to put their emotions aside," Solana told reporters here after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski.

Solana called on the Macedonian and Greek governments to seize the opportunity of ongoing negotiations headed by UN special envoy Matthew Nimetz to resolve the issue.

"I think that is a window of opportunity and I am asking the prime minister not (to) let this window of opportunity to go," he said at a joint media conference with Gruevski.

Skopje and Athens have been at loggerheads over the right to the name Macedonia since the ex-Yugoslav republic proclaimed independence in 1991. A northern Greek province has the same name.

Last year Greece used its veto to block an invitation for Skopje to join NATO and insists on solving the name dispute with its northern neighbour before giving the green light to its further integration into the European Union.

Solana said Macedonia could expect "good news in the coming days" about its citizens obtaining visa-free travel to most of the 27-nation bloc's member countries.

Gruevski expressed optimism of being able to fulfill remaining obligations to meet the criteria for the visa-free Schengen zone.

"Macedonia is in the final phase of finishing off the benchmarks," the Macedonian leader said.

The European Union is yet to set a date for membership talks to begin for Macedonia which was made an official EU candidate in December 2005.

What is the EU asking of Greece?
Dear Mr Solana, I would be concerned if Macedonia dropped its emotions in any way whatsoever. Especially when it comes to matters of identity.

[Napoleon]

Ironic especially coming from a person who originates from a 'country' (Spain) whose national identity is as fake as modern Greece. Like modern Greece, the modern Spanish nation was created via the persecution and assimilation of its minority populations.

Instead of trying to solve the 'name dispute' between Macedonia and Greece, maybe he should try to solve the problems in his own country between the Basques, Catalonians, Galicians, Andalusians, Castillians and the numerous other ethnic minorities that constitute the 'Spanish' nation of today

[Soldier of Macedon]

Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.

Emotions has everything to do with it, we are defending our identity against an immoral attack, how can this idiot possibly expect the Macedonian people not to feel emotion about their Macedonian identity?

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.

Ha ha.
That really is it in a nutshell.

And if he said he was fine about that, then it says more about him than he may care to admit.

But this really is the most obvious indication that the EU bats for its own and that justice has nothing to do with it.

[Risto the Great]

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n187534

Skopje. Negotiations on the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece are not EU responsibility but are important for the European Union as a whole. This is what the EU High Representative on Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana said today after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, Macedonian online edition Forum reported.
"The question of differences about the name is important and must be solved by willingness on both sides," Solana claimed. "As you know, the person responsible for this process within the UN was in the region with ideas and observations. This is an open window of opportunity and as I told the Prime Minister it should not be allowed this window to be closed’, Solana said.

Why exactly is it important to change aspects in relation to the sovereignty of a nation?